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AegisGrimm wrote:I'm just wondering why this is true:

If i want to play a game where i include a FW tank in my army, I then have to beg the other player if it's ok, and if they say "no, I don't like FW stuff, I don't know the rules and I think their stuff is OP", I have to shut up, back down and either put up with it and substitute other models in it's place, or walk away without being able to play. Because "it's understandable because that's their right".

But if an opponent shows up with an army with a Dark Eldar army, and I say "Sorry I don't play people with Dark Eldar armies, I don't know their rules and I think they are overpowered- you have to play an army that uses rules I like", I'm pretty sure I would get "the look" and be labelled as "that f'ing guy".

Pretty much my view tbh. But as ever we are cycling in circles because people are sticking to the very letter of the rules, which I find utterly lacking in the very ethos of the game, sportsmanship. The game is based on tactics, as such we must learn to adapt to new threats, if you can't adapt to something new, be it a new dex or a FW model, then you might want to assess yourself and not others for how things turn out.

Go to 40k night.

Everyone brought 40k armies.
I bring my Lizardmen.

Now,are you guys are telling me the chances of me playing a game ( or even be taken seriously )wont be lower than say... if i brought Eldar?,


Because you guys say " need permission for both " is heavily flawed.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I don't reject other variant games. It's just that they change up far more than just a simple addition to the FoC list.

Which is subjective. Switching or adding a few FoC slots is arguably a more minor change (books like SW or FoC-switching character do it even in basic 40K). Adding a "new" unit not stated in the seems a far more severe switch-up to me.

Either way, adding FW is most definitly considered a major, incisive change to the game by many, whether you agree or not. If you'd just accept it as that, take it to heart everytime you meet someone new for a game, and you'll do the FW-community a great service.

Which is subjective. Switching or adding a few FoC slots is arguably a more minor change (books like SW or FoC-switching character do it even in basic 40K). Adding a "new" unit not stated in the seems a far more severe switch-up to me.

Than find me some additions to the FoC that isn't handpicked out of a book that relies on a full internal structure (such as planetstrike)

And as for adding new units, I simply refute to the fact I've never faced IG, it is indeed a severe switch-up if I had to face one, but I'd simply lose, restructure my list to try and make it more all rounded, and continue on if needed. I wouldn't reject every single IG list because of that specific reason.

I don't understand how "Bringing a FW tank to a GW game equates to bringing a Space Wolf army and suddenly fielding 3 Heavy Warjacks, an Infinity character, seven Dwarf gyrocopters, and a Firestorm Armada battleship, ridden bareback by a Pikachu model in the style of the guy on the bomb from Dr. Strangelove."

Ok an example for you all...

I have a DE Wych army, which has never been defeated under the current book. so much so, people now refuse to play it. It contains no FW models.

My Pre-Heresy IW on the other hand has won more than it has lost, but contains Dreadnought drop pods and contemptors as well as the preheresy land raider FW options. People love playing it.


Flawed logic? Most certainly!!!

Do I care? Not a jot.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is subjective. Switching or adding a few FoC slots is arguably a more minor change (books like SW or FoC-switching character do it even in basic 40K). Adding a "new" unit not stated in the seems a far more severe switch-up to me.

Than find me some additions to the FoC that isn't handpicked out of a book that relies on a full internal structure (such as planetstrike)

And as for adding new units, I simply refute to the fact I've never faced IG, it is indeed a severe switch-up if I had to face one, but I'd simply lose, restructure my list to try and make it more all rounded, and continue on if needed. I wouldn't reject every single IG list because of that specific reason.

Fine for you. But as I tried to point out, it isn't about what you think is a big switch up. Or what I think is a big switch up (though the two clearly differ). It's about the social norms, standards and etiquette of the game. And in that regard, evidenced not least by the wording FW-authors themselves put in the books, experience with FW is considered to be a bit more out there. Experience fighting IG is considered to be part of the game.

Hypothetically, some people might just have spend their entire "40K hobbyist" life in their hobby-room playing Krieg against Eldar Corsair and never, ever encountered a single power-armour. Tough Luck for them I guess when they enter a hobby-store for a pick-up game. But it' isn't "the norm" of 40K.

AegisGrimm wrote:

I don't understand how "Bringing a FW tank to a GW game equates to bringing a Space Wolf army and suddenly fielding 3 Heavy Warjacks, an Infinity character, seven Dwarf gyrocopters, and a Firestorm Armada battleship, ridden bareback by a Pikachu model in the style of the guy on the bomb from Dr. Strangelove."

AegisGrimm, unless you have objections, this is getting sigged ^_^

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:Pretty much my view tbh. But as ever we are cycling in circles because people are sticking to the very letter of the rules, which I find utterly lacking in the very ethos of the game, sportsmanship. The game is based on tactics, as such we must learn to adapt to new threats, if you can't adapt to something new, be it a new dex or a FW model, then you might want to assess yourself and not others for how things turn out.

I'll turn it around on you.

You and I agree to play a game - you've never played against a Dreadknight in any of your games, and hence have never bothered reading the rules. You were under the impression that in Dawn of War games, MCs couldn't be used - meaning the Dreadknight was out.

We build lists and trade them afterwards, and you note a Dreadknight on my list. "We agreed on Dawn of War though - you can't use MCs in that." "Sure you can - if your opponent agrees. I didn't mention it because it would be unsportsmanlike for you to refuse."

How do you react? I'm essentially forcing something on you - that you haven't read the rules on, and have absolutely no idea how the damn thing works - and if you refuse to play against it you're being rude/unsportsmanlike.

Do you not see how that's a catch-22? Either you play my way and not have fun because this is not what you expected when you originally agreed, or you refuse and get labeled "that guy" or "unsportsmanlike".

I adapt to new threats all the time - every game is different, every general is different. I adapt to new codexes - because I should. And if I get bored, I can look at a store copy of a codex - or my opponents if there's a rules question during a game. This is different from adapting to FW models/rules.

Most stores don't have store copies of IA books.

You're also not considering that if "FW should always be allowed" then you'd be fine fielding it against a new player who doesn't even know Forgeworld exists - but knows the BRB and his codex inside and out. If you both happen to play Tyranids, and you throw down some Malanthropes - how do you expect him to react?

AegisGrimm wrote:

I don't understand how "Bringing a FW tank to a GW game equates to bringing a Space Wolf army and suddenly fielding 3 Heavy Warjacks, an Infinity character, seven Dwarf gyrocopters, and a Firestorm Armada battleship, ridden bareback by a Pikachu model in the style of the guy on the bomb from Dr. Strangelove."

It is an hyperbolic argument, for sure. The point is not to take it literally, but to see how its exaggeration illustrates the hypocrisy inherent in arguments that go "everyone should accept FW, because the more the better" while simultaniously crying wolf at, for example, lovingly fan-made stuff for being "not official GW".

The hyperbolic "Warjack" argument thereby highlights how the "more the merrier" argument wasn't a serious argument, but a thin disguise to hide the subjective bias for using FW and the need to dress this bias up with seemingly neutral or rational arguments.

Or, in short, everyone likes to draw a line somewhere. If you wish other people to respect the line you have drawn between FW and Pikachu, you should also equally respect the line other people draw between GW and FW.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

AegisGrimm wrote:

I don't understand how "Bringing a FW tank to a GW game equates to bringing a Space Wolf army and suddenly fielding 3 Heavy Warjacks, an Infinity character, seven Dwarf gyrocopters, and a Firestorm Armada battleship, ridden bareback by a Pikachu model in the style of the guy on the bomb from Dr. Strangelove."

AegisGrimm, unless you have objections, this is getting sigged ^_^

What..I saw it first!

It's kind of epic.

''Books not avaible in stores'' is not 100% valid IA 3 to 5 are all using 4th edition rules so if you want to have the Death Korps rules you go there: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/k/kreig.pdf for example.

I would shrug it off and continue. Because that is how I play.

If I bring a FW unit to play I bring the rules for all to see. Just as anyone who brings anarmy must bring their assiciated codex with them too.

If he raised a question too it I'd show him its rules. as I said, i'm pretty easy with the rules.

I just don't care for people telling me I should play the game "their" way

My store plays 1500pts games.
I can bring Pikachu count as 1450pts Reaver titan.

Opponent cringes when I ask for game, followed by asking me " can I forfeit if I didnt get to go first?"
Can i really blame them?

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:I just don't care for people telling me I should play the game "their" way

Right back atcha buddy.

Zweischneid wrote:

AegisGrimm wrote:

I don't understand how "Bringing a FW tank to a GW game equates to bringing a Space Wolf army and suddenly fielding 3 Heavy Warjacks, an Infinity character, seven Dwarf gyrocopters, and a Firestorm Armada battleship, ridden bareback by a Pikachu model in the style of the guy on the bomb from Dr. Strangelove."

It is an hyperbolic argument, for sure. The point is not to take it literally, but to see how its exaggeration illustrates the hypocrisy inherent in arguments that go "everyone should accept FW, because the more the better" while simultaniously crying wolf at, for example, lovingly fan-made stuff for being "not official GW".

The hyperbolic "Warjack" argument thereby highlights how the "more the merrier" argument wasn't a serious argument, but a thin disguise to hide the subjective bias for using FW and the need to dress this bias up with seemingly neutral or rational arguments.

Ok, first of all I don't say that everybody should play against FW, I've stated again and again that everybody has the right to deny to play me, but you seem to ignore that.

Secondly, I use Just Dave's fandex so I certainly don't "cry wolf" at fan made stuff as it is usually used in my gaming group.

rigeld2 wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:I just don't care for people telling me I should play the game "their" way

Right back atcha buddy.

I'm telling no one how to play, I wish that people would just be more open minded, like my local gaming group.

jgehunter wrote:

Ok, first of all I don't say that everybody should play against FW, I've stated again and again that everybody has the right to deny to play me, but you seem to ignore that.

Secondly, I use Just Dave's fandex so I certainly don't "cry wolf" at fan made stuff as it is usually used in my gaming group.

I am not ignoring you. I applaud your opinion. I would fully agree with your position. If people like ZebioLizard2 or H.B.M.C or AnUnearthlyChilde would come to something closer to your position, there'd be no discussion.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:I just don't care for people telling me I should play the game "their" way

Right back atcha buddy.

I'm telling no one how to play, I wish that people would just be more open minded, like my local gaming group.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:But as ever we are cycling in circles because people are sticking to the very letter of the rules, which I find utterly lacking in the very ethos of the game, sportsmanship. The game is based on tactics, as such we must learn to adapt to new threats, if you can't adapt to something new, be it a new dex or a FW model, then you might want to assess yourself and not others for how things turn out.

Sorry, I thought you saying " I find utterly lacking in the very ethos of the game, sportsmanship" was telling people how to play. Because obviously to not "lack sportsmanship" I should allow FW models/rules at all times.

Zweischneid wrote:

jgehunter wrote:

Ok, first of all I don't say that everybody should play against FW, I've stated again and again that everybody has the right to deny to play me, but you seem to ignore that.

Secondly, I use Just Dave's fandex so I certainly don't "cry wolf" at fan made stuff as it is usually used in my gaming group.

I am not ignoring you. I applaud your opinion. I would fully agree with your position. If people like ZebioLizard2 or H.B.M.C or AnUnearthlyChilde would come to something closer to your position, there'd be no discussion.

Hold your horses there missy... before lumping me into a group, you might want to re-read a post of mine further up. There is always going to be opinion, much like every creature has a sphincter the point is everyone is entitled to their opinion. I've never said you were wrong, only that I disagree with your opinion. BIG DIFFERENCE.

I don't understand how "Bringing a FW tank to a GW game equates to bringing a Space Wolf army and suddenly fielding 3 Heavy Warjacks, an Infinity character, seven Dwarf gyrocopters, and a Firestorm Armada battleship, ridden bareback by a Pikachu model in the style of the guy on the bomb from Dr. Strangelove."

Well...."because it's obviously the same thing" is what I keep hearing.

Anyway, I would require any person playing a FW unit against me to have the rules for it open and available to me to peruse before the game, in case I don't know them so I'm not surprised. Because it's what I would do for them, because it's sportsman-like. But people should at least be open to considering letting a guy use what he brought*.

Anyways, don't any of you guys play 40K with friends? Or just complete strangers all the time? Because I have a good idea what my buddy would want to field against me, and why. It's not like he's suddenly springing 5 Land raider variants on me- he probably showed it to me and was proud of it before we ever even played a game with it.

*this obviously doesn't mean gigantor, powerful uber-things like Titans, and Superheavies. I'm talking something cool but within the realm of reason, like an Eldar Hornet, or an Imperial Guard Leman Russ variant, or something.

rigeld2 wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:I just don't care for people telling me I should play the game "their" way

Right back atcha buddy.

I'm telling no one how to play, I wish that people would just be more open minded, like my local gaming group.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:But as ever we are cycling in circles because people are sticking to the very letter of the rules, which I find utterly lacking in the very ethos of the game, sportsmanship. The game is based on tactics, as such we must learn to adapt to new threats, if you can't adapt to something new, be it a new dex or a FW model, then you might want to assess yourself and not others for how things turn out.

Sorry, I thought you saying " I find utterly lacking in the very ethos of the game, sportsmanship" was telling people how to play. Because obviously to not "lack sportsmanship" I should allow FW models/rules at all times.

It's my opinion, doesn't make me right or wrong... it just makes it different to yours.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

AegisGrimm wrote:

I don't understand how "Bringing a FW tank to a GW game equates to bringing a Space Wolf army and suddenly fielding 3 Heavy Warjacks, an Infinity character, seven Dwarf gyrocopters, and a Firestorm Armada battleship, ridden bareback by a Pikachu model in the style of the guy on the bomb from Dr. Strangelove."

Well....because it's obviously the same thing.

I would require any person playing a FW unit against me to have the rules for it open and available to me to peruse before the game, in case I don;t know them. Because it's what I would do for them, because it's sportsman-like. But people should at least be open to considering letting a guy use what he brought.

Anyways, don't any of you guys play 40K with friends? Or just complete strangers all the time? Because I have a good idea what my buddy would want to field against me, and why. It's not like he's suddenly springing 5 Land raider variants on me- he probably showed it to me and was proud of it before we ever even played a game with it.

Again, this echo's my thoughts exactly.

Zweischneid wrote:

jgehunter wrote:

Ok, first of all I don't say that everybody should play against FW, I've stated again and again that everybody has the right to deny to play me, but you seem to ignore that.

Secondly, I use Just Dave's fandex so I certainly don't "cry wolf" at fan made stuff as it is usually used in my gaming group.

I am not ignoring you. I applaud your opinion. I would fully agree with your position. If people like ZebioLizard2 or H.B.M.C or AnUnearthlyChilde would come to something closer to your position, there'd be no discussion.

I never said you could deny to play me. It's not like I can hold a gun to you and force you to game anyways.

I just said excluding armies with forgeworld models is a bit silly, when I could do the same for IG, SW, or GK or every other single standard army for the same reasons.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:Ok an example for you all...

I have a DE Wych army, which has never been defeated under the current book. so much so, people now refuse to play it. It contains no FW models.

My Pre-Heresy IW on the other hand has won more than it has lost, but contains Dreadnought drop pods and contemptors as well as the preheresy land raider FW options. People love playing it.


Flawed logic? Most certainly!!!

Do I care? Not a jot.

I'll quote myself here to make a point, that I don't really care what someone brings as an army. So long as you have your Codex/IA book/IA entry with you in case there is something I don't get/understand.

I just don't get why it's so hard for everyone to just say "Hey, do you mind if i use forgeworld stuff" before they start the game. I'm sure that if you ask, most people will be fine with it. And if they just aren't feeling it, then hey, go play someone else, no reason to demonize them.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:It's my opinion, doesn't make me right or wrong... it just makes it different to yours.

So - I just want to make this clear for myself.

In your opinion, if I don't allow FW models/rules in a game, I'm being unsportsmanlike.


But it's totally cool for you to ask for a game with one set of implied rules, and change them up when you feel like it?
(asking for a game of 40k implies all the normal codexes and the BRB in most circles - IE not FW. You bringing in FW after that agreement isn't really kosher).

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I never said you could deny to play me. It's not like I can hold a gun to you and force you to game anyways.

I just said excluding armies with forgeworld models is a bit silly, when I could do the same for IG, SW, or GK or every other single standard army for the same reasons.

And I just said that excluding fan-dexes and simliar things on principle while advocating FW for the benefit of more diversity in 40K is hypocrisy of the highest order because one willfully ignores the separation some people like to draw between GW and FW while forcefully enforcing the distinction between FW and other additional/optional/expansive material. It's a near-text-book definition of double standards.

rigeld2 wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:It's my opinion, doesn't make me right or wrong... it just makes it different to yours.

So - I just want to make this clear for myself.

In your opinion, if I don't allow FW models/rules in a game, I'm being unsportsmanlike.


But it's totally cool for you to ask for a game with one set of implied rules, and change them up when you feel like it?
(asking for a game of 40k implies all the normal codexes and the BRB in most circles - IE not FW. You bringing in FW after that agreement isn't really kosher).

I never change an army list once it is set in stone. I don't power game, I make themed lists which stay the same until a new dex/update to IA forces me to change.

When I have a handful of FW models in my list, or if you want to get picky... my Pre heresy army which is entirely FW, It'd make me raise my eyebrow and question why you refused to play it. and, If upon hearing your answer I found it illogical, I would then most likely consider it unsportsman-like.

Zweischneid wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I never said you could deny to play me. It's not like I can hold a gun to you and force you to game anyways.

I just said excluding armies with forgeworld models is a bit silly, when I could do the same for IG, SW, or GK or every other single standard army for the same reasons.

And I just said that excluding fan-dexes and simliar things on principle while advocating FW for the benefit of more diversity in 40K is hypocrisy of the highest order because one willfully ignores the separation some people like to draw between GW and FW while forcefully enforcing the distinction between FW and other additional/optional/expansive material. It's a near-text-book definition of double standards.

When those fan-dexs become produced by games workshop/forgeworld/black library/fantasy production games. I'll take that into account, till than those are something that has to be asked as they are supplements produced by outside sources and not given the greenlight by those Games Workshop affiliated companies.

If you can get your Fandex authorized by them, sure I'll gladly play you without questions. Because I have no separation at all between Forgeworld and games workshop. They are two halves of the same coin, to be played in the same games, or within the expanded game variants produced by GW or FW.

Zweischneid wrote:

Pacific wrote:

I can only assume that people objecting to it:
a) Have not read the rules and are just going off hearsay.
b) Have some inaccurate notion about the 'balance' of 40k, and think that the FW books are spoiling something that does not actually exist.
c) Have played so few games of 40k that they haven't got bored with the basic set-up yet.

Anyway, end of rant. In summary, anyone who says 'I won't play that army, you've got a FW turret on that razorback' needs their head examining.

I am not sure anyone is objecting to anything. I am just exercising my right to not play it. Noone is forced to play something they do not like. Me, for example, I do not play Warhmmer Fantasy Battle. I do not play Warmachine. I do not play BFG. And though I play 40K, I do not play Cities of Death or Spearhead or Apocalypse either. And I do not play Forgeworld.

To answer your questions, I have read the rules for all of the above, I have no assumption that the game I do choose to play (i.e. 40K) is more balanced than those I do not play (WFB, Warmachine, 40K Cities of Death, 40K cum FW). And I have played so many games of 40K over the last 20 years or so, that I got thoroughly bored with cluttered, oversized games that stretch it beyond the game's sweat spot.

In consequence. I play 40K. No expension. Never above 1500. No FW or other expansion and addenums (hell, the 40K mainline could arguably do with less, rather than more). It's where 40K is the most fun. If it ever stops being fun, I likely stop playing 40K. And I do not appreciate uppity, condescending snobs who try to eductate me that Warmachine, WFB, FW, whatever-have-you would be "More fun" and provide a better game. Sorry. Not for me. Been there, done that. FW may not be (more or less) broken than any other tabletop-game out there. But it doesn't ADD anything worthwhile either. And 99% of the miniatures it produces are (in my humble opinion) butt-ugly. So keep it away from me.

1. While it is an opinion, FW MODELS ARE SO AMAZING BEAUTIFUL ZOMG!!! is the general consensus.

2. FW is not an expansion game, any more than a codex is an expansion on 40k. Codex contain additional rules on top of the BRB, just like IA. They have models with stats, just like IA. Outside of a tournament, there really is no good reason not to play it. Unless you also refuse to play against every single army since their codex is an expansion on the BRB?