Forgeworld...Why the Hate?

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**nomotog**

Maybe it has something to do with how you get the rules. You have to roll up with a book that looks unlike any warhammer rule book or have a print out from the internet. Just picture how it must look form the other end of the table.

**kb305**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
doesn't forgeworld have a drop pod that you can assault out of? that right there is fricken stupid and enough for me not to want to play against any forgeworld rules.

It's also a fast attack choice, costs about 60 points, and has a chance of immobilizing your dread on assault.

I'm not so sure why that's not okay but drop pod sternguard with full out melta able to combat squad and hit two vehicles is A-okay. At least they'd do far more vehicle damage, and it'd make ironclads more useful.

it's also not fair if your opponent isnt fielding any forgeworld stuff. if you and your friends wanna load up on forgeworld and go at it against eachother, that's fine. but dont try to spring all these new rules and crap onto unsuspecting people.

Ahh jealousy, least your honest about it rather than trying for the overpowered rules bit.

assaulting dreads out of drop pods with blood talons is alot worse than those sternguards. pretty obvious.

what are you talking about jealousy? its more about not being a Dbag. i like the forgeworld models but i would never expect or try to use the special rules against random people.

**ZebioLizard2**

kb305 wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
doesn't forgeworld have a drop pod that you can assault out of? that right there is fricken stupid and enough for me not to want to play against any forgeworld rules.

It's also a fast attack choice, costs about 60 points, and has a chance of immobilizing your dread on assault.

I'm not so sure why that's not okay but drop pod sternguard with full out melta able to combat squad and hit two vehicles is A-okay. At least they'd do far more vehicle damage, and it'd make ironclads more useful.

it's also not fair if your opponent isnt fielding any forgeworld stuff. if you and your friends wanna load up on forgeworld and go at it against eachother, that's fine. but dont try to spring all these new rules and crap onto unsuspecting people.

Ahh jealousy, least your honest about it rather than trying for the overpowered rules bit.

assaulting dreads out of drop pods with blood talons is alot worse than those sternguards. pretty obvious.

what are you talking about jealousy? its more about not being a Dbag. i like the forgeworld models but i would never expect or try to use the special rules against random people.

I'd use the rules for contemptors, but its mainly cause their so damn cool, why would it be douchebaggish? I'd show them the rules specifically if they ask, being Dbaggish is loading it up, but not taking the rules and just telling them how it works, but the issue there is that people can actually do that with standard codex's too, the forum has plenty of examples where people try to cheat even with a standard codex listing.

As for blood talons, sure, but It's only for BT, DA, C:SM, SW unless its an apoc game. Blood angels dreads specifically cannot be used in them, along with gray knights.

Apparently even they realized Blood Angel dreads should not be getting that close so soon.

**jgehunter**

kb305 wrote:
. doesnt forgeworld have a drop pod that you can assault out of? that right there is fricken stupid and enough for me not to want to play against any forgeworld rules.

If we apply your logic we may as well not play anything because GK's exist

**Brother SRM**

Clumpski wrote:
But as far as things go, looking at the Apocalypse book(s), (rulebook/expansions etc) they have rules that allow the use of forgeworld (For the most part) models to be used within a normal games.

An example of such would be the vulture gunship, it states as of "Imperial Armour - Apocalypse II (2010)" page number 24 under the Imperial Navy section that:
----- a) "The Vulture counts as a fast skimmer in non-Apocalypse games"
----- b) "A Vulture Gunship is a fast attack choice for an imperial Army."
This is model that is only sold by Forgeworld.

So an example, while playing a game with my mate he lets me use the Vulture Gunship, but another example would be a Baneblade, naturally since a it cannot be classed under a normal FOC chart using a Baneblade is out of strictly out of the question along with wanting to use other models such as the Lightning and Tau Manta, so as long as it fits within the normal chart AND you can provide the rules (as proven above) such things like the Death-storm Drop pod (pg 28) and the Chaplin Dreadnought (pg 29) both which have rules stating they can be used Heavy Support and Elites with a Space Marine/Black Templar/Dark Angels army respectively so I personally cannot see why they cannot be used in there respective places within a normal game so long as the correct rules are provided, and it states something along the lines of what has been said above.

Thank you for clearing that up. I'm in full agreement with you on your point - if it doesn't have a designated slot in an FOC, it generally shouldn't be in a standard 40k game. Even in my gaming group where Forgeworld stuff is always allowed, nobody fields superheavies outside of Apocalypse. Some fliers do see use though, but as with the example you stated, they take up FOC slots.

**gmaleron**

Brother SRM wrote:
Clumpski wrote:
But as far as things go, looking at the Apocalypse book(s), (rulebook/expansions etc) they have rules that allow the use of forgeworld (For the most part) models to be used within a normal games.

An example of such would be the vulture gunship, it states as of "Imperial Armour - Apocalypse II (2010)" page number 24 under the Imperial Navy section that:
----- a) "The Vulture counts as a fast skimmer in non-Apocalypse games"
----- b) "A Vulture Gunship is a fast attack choice for an imperial Army."
This is model that is only sold by Forgeworld.

So an example, while playing a game with my mate he lets me use the Vulture Gunship, but another example would be a Baneblade, naturally since a it cannot be classed under a normal FOC chart using a Baneblade is out of strictly out of the question along with wanting to use other models such as the Lightning and Tau Manta, so as long as it fits within the normal chart AND you can provide the rules (as proven above) such things like the Death-storm Drop pod (pg 28) and the Chaplin Dreadnought (pg 29) both which have rules stating they can be used Heavy Support and Elites with a Space Marine/Black Templar/Dark Angels army respectively so I personally cannot see why they cannot be used in there respective places within a normal game so long as the correct rules are provided, and it states something along the lines of what has been said above.

Thank you for clearing that up. I'm in full agreement with you on your point - if it doesn't have a designated slot in an FOC, it generally shouldn't be in a standard 40k game. Even in my gaming group where Forgeworld stuff is always allowed, nobody fields superheavies outside of Apocalypse. Some fliers do see use though, but as with the example you stated, they take up FOC slots.

+1 to this. And Kb305 your telling me that because someone who has a Forgeworld book or Forgeworld models should not be allowed to play with them because their opponent has neither? Where is the sense in that? I am not saying that you should take super heavies in a normal 40k game but as stated above, as long as there is a FOC chart with the list I see and or have no problem with fighitng against forgeworld stuff (such as the Raid on Kastofore Drop Troop IG list). Also even if they have a unique unit or two that can be sloted into an existing FOC I dont see any problem with that @ all either. How hard is it really to be like "what does that do" and then have the rules explained to you or even better ask to read the rules and figure it out for yourself. Jgehunter made a good point, if we applied your logic of "its stupid OP rule" that can be said with multiple things already in place in the regular game.

nomotog wrote:Maybe it has something to do with how you get the rules. You have to roll up with a book that looks unlike any warhammer rule book or have a print out from the internet. Just picture how it must look form the other end of the table.

I think the phrase "never judge a book by its cover" is relevant here, just because it doesnt look like a standard GW codex doesnt mean that it is not legal or cant be used

**SDFarsight**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Seeing as several models from Gray Knights, Space Wolves, and Imperial Guard are legal, my decision is that forgeworld is just like the standard codex's, there's overpowered, underpowered, and just right stuff.

But these are the armies that get most of the special stuff on Forge World...

But in all seriousness, I've fought Forge World units before, for the most part they're not so bad that I'd refuse to play them. I'd probably make an exception for a few units, but for the most part it's fun to face off against a special model.

Tau get's a fair bit, surprisingly so.

Indeed. FW gave the Tau everything on their Christmas list.

A bit of trivia: The Broadside Battlesuit in Dawn of War 1 had the body of a FW Broadside yet the weapons positioning of the GW Broadside (top-heavy shoulder mounted).

**kb305**

jgehunter wrote:
kb305 wrote:
. doesnt forgeworld have a drop pod that you can assault out of? that right there is fricken stupid and enough for me not to want to play against any forgeworld rules.

If we apply your logic we may as well not play anything because GK's exist

.. you make a valid point lol

**Brother SRM**

kb305 wrote:
jgehunter wrote:
kb305 wrote:
. doesnt forgeworld have a drop pod that you can assault out of? that right there is fricken stupid and enough for me not to want to play against any forgeworld rules.

If we apply your logic we may as well not play anything because GK's exist

.. you make a valid point lol

Also that's not really a big deal. Imagine a dreadnought assaulting out of a drop pod. That's what, one unit it ties up? Instead of dropping and instantly dying, it now drops, gets into assault with something, and if it actually wins said fight it gets to assault. It's not really a big deal, but people hear "assault out of deep strike" and crap themselves. People aren't saying Zagstrukk or Vanguard Vets are cheesy, and you pay a points premium for said drop pod.

**jgehunter**

Brother SRM wrote:
kb305 wrote:
jgehunter wrote:
kb305 wrote:
. doesnt forgeworld have a drop pod that you can assault out of? that right there is fricken stupid and enough for me not to want to play against any forgeworld rules.

If we apply your logic we may as well not play anything because GK's exist

.. you make a valid point lol

Also that's not really a big deal. Imagine a dreadnought assaulting out of a drop pod. That's what, one unit it ties up? Instead of dropping and instantly dying, it now drops, gets into assault with something, and if it actually wins said fight it gets to assault. It's not really a big deal, but people hear "assault out of deep strike" and crap themselves. People aren't saying Zagstrukk or Vanguard Vets are cheesy, and you pay a points premium for said drop pod.

It also features a 1/6 chance of immobilizing. If it does your CC dread is going to sit for the game looking weirdly at the techmarine that patented the drop pod.

**Milisim**

If I cant use FW units as a Tau player because it makes my army better, then for future reference I will not allow anyone to play GK against me as that is GW's version of shyte and I have the right NOT to play a broken codex.........

Pretty much the same logic...

I wont refuse a game because of FW models since it is GW. I would however like a heads up im up against FW stuff so I can go read up on it....

**ph34r**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
it's also not fair if your opponent isnt fielding any forgeworld stuff. if you and your friends wanna load up on forgeworld and go at it against eachother, that's fine. but dont try to spring all these new rules and crap onto unsuspecting people.
Ahh jealousy, least your honest about it rather than trying for the overpowered rules bit.

Nice, attacking someone as "jealous" instead of just concerned about fair play and balance, and then ignorance about the power of FW rules. An average day for a "my little pony" internet fanboy.

**Ensis Ferrae**

gmaleron wrote:
Brother SRM wrote:
Clumpski wrote:
But as far as things go, looking at the Apocalypse book(s), (rulebook/expansions etc) they have rules that allow the use of forgeworld (For the most part) models to be used within a normal games.

An example of such would be the vulture gunship, it states as of "Imperial Armour - Apocalypse II (2010)" page number 24 under the Imperial Navy section that:
----- a) "The Vulture counts as a fast skimmer in non-Apocalypse games"
----- b) "A Vulture Gunship is a fast attack choice for an imperial Army."
This is model that is only sold by Forgeworld.

So an example, while playing a game with my mate he lets me use the Vulture Gunship, but another example would be a Baneblade, naturally since a it cannot be classed under a normal FOC chart using a Baneblade is out of strictly out of the question along with wanting to use other models such as the Lightning and Tau Manta, so as long as it fits within the normal chart AND you can provide the rules (as proven above) such things like the Death-storm Drop pod (pg 28) and the Chaplin Dreadnought (pg 29) both which have rules stating they can be used Heavy Support and Elites with a Space Marine/Black Templar/Dark Angels army respectively so I personally cannot see why they cannot be used in there respective places within a normal game so long as the correct rules are provided, and it states something along the lines of what has been said above.

Thank you for clearing that up. I'm in full agreement with you on your point - if it doesn't have a designated slot in an FOC, it generally shouldn't be in a standard 40k game. Even in my gaming group where Forgeworld stuff is always allowed, nobody fields superheavies outside of Apocalypse. Some fliers do see use though, but as with the example you stated, they take up FOC slots.

+1 to this. And Kb305 your telling me that because someone who has a Forgeworld book or Forgeworld models should not be allowed to play with them because their opponent has neither? Where is the sense in that? I am not saying that you should take super heavies in a normal 40k game but as stated above, as long as there is a FOC chart with the list I see and or have no problem with fighitng against forgeworld stuff (such as the Raid on Kastofore Drop Troop IG list). Also even if they have a unique unit or two that can be sloted into an existing FOC I dont see any problem with that @ all either. How hard is it really to be like "what does that do" and then have the rules explained to you or even better ask to read the rules and figure it out for yourself. Jgehunter made a good point, if we applied your logic of "its stupid OP rule" that can be said with multiple things already in place in the regular game.

By that logic, because I do not own an Ork codex, My opponent should not be allowed to field them. The same goes for any other codex that I do not own, which, if enforced that way, would make the game extremely boring....

In my old gaming group, we had a tau player who bought one of the FW HQ units, and was trying to field it in one of our group games (2v2).. because it was the first time seeing the unit, we all agreed that no targeting of said Tau HQ unit would take place until after turn 2 started (it just so happened that his team got first turn, which allowed him 2 full turns of shooting and whatnot).. after that "grace period" was up, we toasted him right quick, and he ultimately didn't do very much damage at all (if memory serves, he didnt roll so hot, and only took out a couple models, including a rhino)

So, in my experience, FW stuff really doesn't present much to truly be afraid of... just a tad bit of forewarning would be nice... And, unless I personally know the person I'm playing against, the actual FW book is required if FW stuff is being taken, a print out, or photo copy is not allowed.

**zachjattack**

The reason why people hate Forgeworld is because people like to call everything a copy, or gay just because its in the same business as another company. Forgeworld makes great quality models, whether its apocalypse titans, or steam-punky Crusade armored space marines. Most people that hate it, which I dont understand, probably feel like they are freeloading off GamesWorkshop's work,and selling models that you cant buy at a store, or on the games workshop website. I think that all the hate on Forgeworld is ridiculous and the haters are just complainers. I think that people need to understand that forge world makes the things that GamesWorkshop cant mass produce like the other models that they make.

**ZebioLizard2**

ph34r wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
it's also not fair if your opponent isnt fielding any forgeworld stuff. if you and your friends wanna load up on forgeworld and go at it against eachother, that's fine. but dont try to spring all these new rules and crap onto unsuspecting people.
Ahh jealousy, least your honest about it rather than trying for the overpowered rules bit.
Nice, attacking someone as "jealous" instead of just concerned about fair play and balance, and then ignorance about the power of FW rules. An average day for a "my little pony" internet fanboy.

At least the rest of my post was constructive, rather than just intentionally trying to provoke one person, not to mention I followed it up after with a more declarative statement on the power of forgeworld, now have something more constructive to debate rather than something you can nitpick.

Here's my issue with the "Forgeworld is overpowered!" deal, we have to deal with underpriced things within all codex's, some of them make things tolerable (Vulkan) Some of them make an already already strong codex over saturated (Imperial guards Vendetta, Space wolves Gray hunters, Gray Knights Rifledreads and Purifiers to name a consistent few). Most of what forgeworld puts out is mostly overcosted, with a few exceptions out of nearly 95% of the entirety of forgeworld that can be proven to be inconstantly undercosted. There's only one or two units I've seen consistently stated to be overpowered, and most of the time every time someone brings up an example, it is always Plague Drones, maybe even the land raider that costs so much that it's only use is a consistent transport score vehicle, with the Lucius drop pod it's only brought up when referring to blood angels dreadnoughts, which it cannot even transport.

I want some good examples outside of the common "Big Bad Three" (Lucius Drop Pod, Blight Drone, Land Raider Achilles) , that is intended for use within the standard game of Warhammer 40K, not the Apocalypse variants. This way we can know and debate which ones can be considered overpowered, with the rest having a free ride outside of this intended overpowered bubble.

**Avatar 720**

Forgeworld is a subsidiary company of Games Workshop.

Just though this needed clearing up, as thus far it hasn't been.

**Exergy**

my forge world hate comes from my codex. Having 3 choices(1 of them potentially playable) while the other 2 being crazily awful. The one playable model is 85pounds and likely to break into 1000 pieces while I prime it.

So I am just bitter that other races get lots of cool options to flesh out their armies and prevent boredom while I have comparitively little.

When I first read about Grot Tanks I nearly started playing orks because of their awesomeness. I wish my army had something like that (not like grot tanks, something so awesome sounding that I wanted to play my army all over again.)

**-Loki-**

Exergy wrote:my forge world hate comes from my codex. Having 3 choices(1 of them potentially playable) while the other 2 being crazily awful. The one playable model is 85pounds and likely to break into 1000 pieces while I prime it.

So I am just bitter that other races get lots of cool options to flesh out their armies and prevent boredom while I have comparitively little.

Looking at your gallery, I assume you mean Dark Eldar?

You can't blame FW. Dark Eldar were for a long time unsupported even by GW. Necrons were in the same boat. While some people played these armies, they were quite unpopular. FW didn't make anything interesting for these armies because it was very likely they wouldn't sell much. Not a good investment of design staff. The Necron Tomb Stalker was actually done by one designer in his spare time.

Now that Dark Eldar are hot again, I'd expect to see some awesome FW stuff for them. The Tantalus is just a tase of what's going to come.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kb305 wrote:assaulting dreads out of drop pods with blood talons is alot worse than those sternguards. pretty obvious.

what are you talking about jealousy? its more about not being a Dbag. i like the forgeworld models but i would never expect or try to use the special rules against random people.

Blood Talon dreads will never be assaulting you from those Lucius pattern drop pods. You want to know why?

Because Blood Angels aren't allowed to take them. People need to read the rules for FW units before crying cheese.

**kenshin620**

People dont like FW because they dont get a lot of toys for certain armies.

Come on, bring out the Necron stuff

(and the fantasy stuff!)

Also IG tend to lose in every book unless its krieg

Other than that, wonky rules. I mean even more wonky than GW sometimes! (gasp, it is possible!)

Anyways, I love my Warp Hunters. Nothing like letting out a D Cannon Flamer shot

**jgehunter**

kenshin620 wrote:People dont like FW because they dont get a lot of toys for certain armies. Come on, bring out the Necron stuff (and the fantasy stuff!)

Also IG tend to lose in every book unless its krieg

Other than that, wonky rules. I mean even more wonky than GW sometimes! (gasp, it is possible!)

Anyways, I love my Warp Hunters. Nothing like letting out a D Cannon Flamer shot

Please point out the wonky rules and I'll point out 2x the time of those and OP things in normal codex, moreso, maybe I could find them in 1 book

BTW beeing an eldar player too FW opens up a lot of possibilities that the old-ish codex just doesn't provide.

**Bobthehero**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:the actual FW book is required if FW stuff is being taken, a print out, or photo copy is not allowed.

What about outdated books? IA 5 springs to mind, its largely irrelevant right now and the valid DKoK rules are only avaible on the FW site.

**Steelmage99**

This is what I have posted in a previous thread concerning Forgeworld rules.

Steelmage99 wrote:

If one takes the obvious step of excluding the use of super heavies and flyers, then one simply need to ban the Big Five (Lucius Pattern Drop Pod, Deathstorm Drop Pod, Hades Breaching Drill, Land Raider Achilles and the Caestus Assault Ram).

If those steps are taken I dare say that the complaints would be so few that they were basically non-existent.

People who complain about the exclusion of the Big Five are IMO the people who just wish to exploit Imperial Armours lack of play testing.

*Response from other poster*

Steelmage99 wrote:

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me on the relative "brokenness" of the various units. That wasn't really my point either.

Relative power-level or not, the units mentioned are the ones I hear complaints about every time I bring up IA.
So my solution was simply to remove those "offending" units, in order to play with all the others. Sort of like a sacrifice for the greater good, ie the ability to freely play with IA (with the mentioned units banned).

The thing I failed to articulate properly in my previous post was the reactions I received when proposing this.
I have, in my experience, found that people who champions the use of IA usually argues that the units in IA, as a whole, are not unbalanced and then proceeds to bring up a number of units from IA that most certainly are not broken, all the while carefully avoiding the Big Five mentioned earlier.
When I talk to opponents of the use of IA, they usually argue that some units are unbalanced and then proceeds to bring up the Big Five, as if they represented the total sum of Forgeworld rules.

Here is the kicker;

When I bring the two parties together and suggest a modification that should leave all parties involved happy (exclude the Big Five, allow everything else save Super Heavies/Flyers), I get a lot of resistance.
Not from the previously opposed to IA-crowd (they are mostly fine with IA being allowed like that), but from the pro-IA-crowd.

The side that previously talked about all those units not being unbalanced (while avoiding the Big Five) don't like the Big Five being excluded!

You know what that tells me?

It tells me that the pro-IA crowd clearly knows which IA-units are the "better" ones, and they want to use those units.
It tells me that the not-broken units mentioned earlier are simply a smoke-screen used in an attempt to "sneak in" the Big Five.

This is, of course, just my experience in attempting to mediate between the two opposing sides in my gaming circle.
All attempts motivated by a desire to find a way to include IA that leaves everybody happy, I might add.

**Exergy**

-Loki- wrote:
Exergy wrote:my forge world hate comes from my codex. Having 3 choices(1 of them potentially playable) while the other 2 being crazily awful. The one playable model is 85pounds and likely to break into 1000 pieces while I prime it.

So I am just bitter that other races get lots of cool options to flesh out their armies and prevent boredom while I have comparitively little.

Looking at your gallery, I assume you mean Dark Eldar?

You can't blame FW. Dark Eldar were for a long time unsupported even by GW. Necrons were in the same boat. While some people played these armies, they were quite unpopular. FW didn't make anything interesting for these armies because it was very likely they wouldn't sell much. Not a good investment of design staff. The Necron Tomb Stalker was actually done by one designer in his spare time.

Now that Dark Eldar are hot again, I'd expect to see some awesome FW stuff for them. The Tantalus is just a tase of what's going to come.

I know how long DE were unsupported. I started playing them when third edition first came out....

I have a firey rage against GW for that injustice as well.

**IcedAnimals**

I will never understand the "Because forgeworld caters to a faction I don't play". What does that have to do with the BALANCE of the game? If imperial guard gets 100 new units and all of them range from balanced to underpowered. What is the difference between fighting it and fighting any other army?

Is your army suddenly weaker because that space marine player has a new toy? Are you at a sudden disadvantage because you aren't fielding forgeworld yourself? Of course not. There is no difference at all if my opponent uses Forgeworld and I don't.

The entire argument makes people bringing it up look childish. Like people who can't go to a dinner guilt tripping other people for going. Reminds me of an ex girlfriend I had who would get upset that I could do something on saturday night with friends while she had work. So she wanted me to sit at home saturday night and do nothing.

**imrandomghgh**

gmaleron wrote:Hello eveyone, this is a question that has sparked some serious debate (and a little drama) @ my local gaming store recently and wanted to take it up with the community of Dakka. As the title of the thread says why do people have a beef with taking Forgeworld lists/models in games? I really see no point to it, especially since Forgeworld is part of GW. The most common complaint that I have seen is that "oh Forgeworld lists are totally OP and cheessy" however when actually playtested and using them we have found this to be hugely exaggerated. People can make the argument that the lists are "unbalanced" but with the playing field of 40k in particular already unbalanced I find it to be an empty argument. Seriously what is the point of GW tempting us to buy these amazing models to only be told we cant use them in games, there is nothing in the books that says they are illegal to run in tournaments or friendly games and I think is taking away alot of the diversity of the game. This all started when the local store owner gave no real or good reason as to why you cant run forgeworld lists (we basically have come to the opinion that its because he doesnt know how to power game against them) and it has now forced us to possibly play a tournament @ another game store so we actually can use the books and minitures. So I want to know guys, what are your reasons for and against running/using Forgeworld books and lists in tournaments and friendly games?

Well the reason it doesn't work in tournaments is fairly obvious, but there is literally NO reason not to play against someone in a friendly game, provided they are coming prepared with their IA to show you the rules if you ask.

I remember the first time I brought an XV9 to the table, my opponent went slack-jawed when I told him all the things it could do "2D3 melta shots? Times three models? T5? HAX" and they forget that these powerful units come at a premium...100+points for a kitted out XV9...

Really, things like Long Fangs, Purifiers and others are more broke'd than ANYTHING fw.

Oh, another logical restriction for use of FW is DON'T USE fething SUPERHEAVIES IN SMALL POINTS GAMES

**Exergy**

IcedAnimals wrote:I will never understand the "Because forgeworld caters to a faction I don't play". What does that have to do with the BALANCE of the game? If imperial guard gets 100 new units and all of them range from balanced to underpowered. What is the difference between fighting it and fighting any other army?

Is your army suddenly weaker because that space marine player has a new toy? Are you at a sudden disadvantage because you aren't fielding forgeworld yourself? Of course not. There is no difference at all if my opponent uses Forgeworld and I don't.

The entire argument makes people bringing it up look childish. Like people who can't go to a dinner guilt tripping other people for going. Reminds me of an ex girlfriend I had who would get upset that I could do something on saturday night with friends while she had work. So she wanted me to sit at home saturday night and do nothing.

so you have to like everything your opponent brings or does. I let people play with forgeworld units, its fun. When their entire army is FW it gets kind of annoying. Just because its legal doesnt mean you have to like it. I also dont like it when my oppoenent squeezes 6 psirifleman dreads into his army. Perfectly legal but I dont like it.

**AegisGrimm**

I've always been oneof the ones that thinks FW stuff is "cool but stupidly expensive". Mostly because they used to only have large vehicles like Superheavies, or niche Imperial Guard tanks. But now that they are really widening their scope, I am actually starting to look at Forgeworld for some smallish things. Now that I have started an Eldar army, the Hornet looks particularly interesting. I don't now any of the rules for it, but it's about $52US, which is firmly in the realm of even the plastic tanks from GW now.

Same with the Wraithseer. It looks pretty dang cool, and it's also only about 55 bucks, which is only ten dollars more than a freaking plastic wraithlord is now.

I can see how a superheavy tank like the Scorpions and baneblades can unbalance smaller games, but it seems there is plenty from FW now that would simply be fun to have on the table.

**Ouze**

IcedAnimals wrote:I will never understand the "Because forgeworld caters to a faction I don't play". What does that have to do with the BALANCE of the game? If imperial guard gets 100 new units and all of them range from balanced to underpowered. What is the difference between fighting it and fighting any other army?

Is your army suddenly weaker because that space marine player has a new toy? Are you at a sudden disadvantage because you aren't fielding forgeworld yourself? Of course not. There is no difference at all if my opponent uses Forgeworld and I don't.

The entire argument makes people bringing it up look childish.

I'm not sure the personal invective towards the people you disagree with is necessary.

I also like Forgeworld and use FW, but I'm perfectly aware that if I were an IG player FW units would give me considerable advantages over a Necron player. Part of the game balance is the amount of options that each faction has access to; in an apocalypse game being a faction that does not have any superheavies does not put you on even ground as the other player despite what you eventually end up with.

**IcedAnimals**

@Exergy, that isn't what im saying at all. You can dislike something your opponent does. But hating forgeworld because they don't cater to your army is a poor choice. You can dislike it because its forgeworld just like you can dislike the guy who brings the current "army of the month" build to every game. But disliking something simply on the notion that you can't have it is silly.

@ouze I am not attempting to insult anyone personally. Nor do I care if they disagree with me. Some people have very valid reasons why they feel forgeworld stuff should not be allowed. But once again "I can't have it so you can't either" is a very childish and selfish reason.

If I am a guard player and I can field an entire FW army of Deathkorp does that give me an advantage over my necron opponent. The answer is and will always be, no. Now if I am playing apoc against an opponent would it be fair? Probably not. But that is a fault of a game mode, not the company. And honestly if I was able to field a GW super heavy but my opponents army didn't have one it would be no different.

That brings up a very good point however. In that when talking about "is forgeworld ok" you have to differentiate between gargantuan creatures/Super heavies and Apocalypse formations as strictly being for the game mode APOC and that they are not what is being talked about. (At least I am not.)

**gmaleron**

Ouze wrote:I also like Forgeworld and use FW, but I'm perfectly aware that if I were an IG player FW units would give me considerable advantages over a Necron player. Part of the game balance is the amount of options that each faction has access to; in an apocalypse game being a faction that does not have any superheavies does not put you on even ground as the other player despite what you eventually end up with.

We are not talking about apocalypse though, we are talking about normal friendly/tournament warhammer 40k games. Necrons may not have much right now but with the release of the new book it should generate more interest which = more money which means FW will probably be coming out with some cool stuff in the future. If people really want to try and take super heavies (vehicles that were designed for apocalypse) then I can see an issue, not when its a FOC or a model that is completely legit in terms of being run in regular games. Also just because a certain faction does not have as much access to FW does not mean the FW player is getting an advantage since, as mentioned the VAST majority of units/models in the game are overpriced or balanced enough to be fair.