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Jidmah wrote: Because some of those models don't come with swords.

Boneswords
Targetting array
Iridium armor
Stimulant injector
Vectored retro thrusters

Therion wrote:

This is the problem: you are making a moral judgment of an action that, at the time, had no moral dimension.

You're no doubt speaking the truth about your commissar model. You modeled it and gained an advantage but it's a result you couldn't predict at the time of modeling. You can't say the same of anyone who equips his DCA's with the combination of both the axe and the sword because not only is it an uncommon combination but specifically has only newfound advantages with zero disadvantages. So I guess your reply to Jidmah was purely theoretical and not about this thread in particular.

But.... do I get the benefit of the rule? Am I to be morally judged for MFA?

Could I use that model freely, while a person that converts later could not? If not, why not?

And should the fact that I suddenly rememebered that Iron Hands sargeants had power axes really be a determining factor for the moral value of a decision to convert tactical sarges with power axes?

And it does relate to this thread. Because a person that models the DCA is doing exactly what a person modelling a Company Commander would do. Which is exactly what I did.

Yet I'm apparently ok, because my heart was pure, while a person that converts the DCA is now only seeking advantage.

the problem is that tying a persons intentions to the act is tricky, because intent is so hard to judge.

pretre wrote:Did someone just try to get all legal on Polonius?

He seems to have silenced your crowd of deniers by admitting that this is a question of MFA and is merely debating the justifiable extent of it.

Polonius wrote:the problem is that tying a persons intentions to the act is tricky, because intent is so hard to judge.

It's not really as hard as you're making it out to be. I'm sure I don't need to give you advice for evaluating a suspected MFA incident, but first I'd look at the extent of it. Is it blatant like a grot sized Land Raider or a crouching Wraithlord, or is it more subtle? Does the person have a reasonable explanation for what his unconventional models look like? In the end, as with any house rules, the tournament organiser will decide whether the issue is a question of MFA or not. I can't see DCA's with mixed power axes and swords being anything else. It's a well known issue to anyone who has even a cursory understanding on 6th edition, and cannot ever be considered an accident or an unforeseen advantage.

Therion wrote:You modeled it and gained an advantage but it's a result you couldn't predict at the time of modeling. In law we'd call your act illegal but not punishable. You can't say the same of anyone who equips his DCA's with the combination of both the axe and the sword because not only is it an uncommon combination but specifically has only newfound advantages with zero disadvantages.

Neither act is illegal. Jesus Xavier Harrington Christ the Fourth. Not real world illegal, not 40k illegal. Adventageous is NOT equivalent with illegal. It is absurd for you to even suggest such a thing.

I admit that, under your ridiculously broad definition, I'm MFA.

IdentifyZero wrote:
If you model your DCA with an axe AND a sword. You are modelling for advantage. Just bloody admit it.

Assume we admit it.

So what?

Yes, people will make decisions based on what they think is effective. And yes, people will exploit quicks in rules changes (hello deathrolla!).

Welcome to the human race. We've had jackets made!

Destrado wrote:
I play Orks How do you model 'Eavy Armour on your Nobz, by the way?

By using the 'eavy armor bits from the boyz sprue or nobz sprue (steel jaw, extra-spiky shoulders). If you fancy, you could even get the metal 'eavy armor bits.

I can't guess which ones, no, I haven't seem them personally. Is it something that's done one time, i.e. proxying? Is it necessity? Are all those TFG? Is one of them even TFG? You don't know; I don't know. Have you played any of them? Were they good sports? Did you point this out to them? (well, except the Vendetta guy I'd guess)

Some of them were, some of them weren't. Funny that you mention the vendetta guy. He actually lifted his vendetta up whenever it needed to shoot or be shot. His flying stand had been stole by someone, and didn't know where to get a new one. The worst TFG was actually the tau player.

Hell I've seen white dwarfs where there were pictures battle reports with people using a can of Pringles as a Carnifex as it was amusingly pointed out by the staff. I just think that limiting the game to the official models is far worse than not allowing any kind of conversion because there's a risk the player is MFA.

As pointed out multiple times, I don't care what your models look like, as long as you make your best effort to use them like the official one.
There is a player here playing "The greater good guard", which is basically a random collection of half-painted models arranged to fit the guard codex. I play him quite often, even though he uses Karandras as Creed.

Which I don't really think is the case with DCA, it's simply a different tactical option and one that is allowed by the rulebook and GW with the Power Weapons being assumed by what you see on the model your opponent owns. You totally have the right to decline playing against people whom you think that have broken the rules. But then again, your definition of what constitutes a rules abuse could differ from mine; would you be upset if I used wyches with power swords and told you before the game they were power axes? I think this is relevant because it mostly shows the disposition of the person I'm playing against.

Are there axes and swords in their box? I honestly don't know. If yes, sure whatever. Otherwise, I'd inform you that they can't have axes normally.

pretre wrote:I admit that, under [Therion's] ridiculously broad definition, I'm MFA.

You ALREADY admitted that. And so did I. And Therion, who read the thread, already knows this. So Therion is not replying in good faith (or is suffering from a serious medical problem which causes massive memory lapses) when he suggests that no one has discussed the definition of MFA here.

Savageconvoy wrote:

Jidmah wrote: Because some of those models don't come with swords.

Boneswords
Targetting array
Iridium armor
Stimulant injector
Vectored retro thrusters

Your codex gives you permission to use all those.

What gives you permission to use power axes? The rulebook doesn't.

Yeah, I was trying to be unambiguous though. Under their definition, everything is MFA.

I find it hard to believe that so many people would be cool with Howling Banshees taking duel Power Mauls.
And it makes proxying awkward to say the least. Cram as many power weapons as you can into your army and decide on a battle-by-battle basis what they are.

rigeld2 wrote:

Jidmah wrote:So, unless you are looking at a model modified from the norm, you'd find swords on DCA and crusaders. Thus, unless you modify your model for an advantage, you wouldn't be able to find a power axe, spear or lance.

Establish the norm. The rule book doesn't - what is allowing you to? Again, you're drawing a completely arbitrary line with zero rules support.

@Joe: "Someone" is irrelevant as long as they do not equal Citadel. You are not allowed to play with PP or lego models either. Unless you are doing so on purpose, I'd like to point out that you are getting rude.

So my buddy that scratch built 30 crusaders and DCA (the shields and one weapon are magnetized) last year with a mix of spears, axes, swords, and daggers has to throw out anything that isn't a sword or shield?

Oh, wait - they're scratch built, so already not legal.

I know at least two stores which will ask you to remove those models if you play with them (no GW bits).

Besides, just count them as swords? Sheesh.

The rules do not mention nor care where the weapon came from, only that it is attached.

People can make up whatever else they like, though they may have issues playing in public.
Especially when assuming someone else's intent.

Therion wrote:

pretre wrote:Did someone just try to get all legal on Polonius?

He seems to have silenced your crowd of deniers by admitting that this is a question of MFA and is merely debating the justifiable extent of it.

It's not a question of illegal but no punishable. That's not this at all.

Something cannot be illegal unless there is a rule prohibiting it. There is none here. You can convert a model. You can take an option modelled. All legal.

What you're arguing is that while something is legal, it is morally wrong.

You might be able to argue that it violates the "spirit, but not letter, of the law", but that's not a road you want to go down.

It's a rules exploit. You can freely call it that if you'd like.

Jidmah wrote:What gives you permission to use power axes? The rulebook doesn't.

It does, you just don't understand that it does. WYSIWYG as outlined in the book, and referenced again in the section on Power Weapons, has nothing to do with what a Citadel Model is holding. We're telling you legal wargear options are legal, and should be visibile on the model. You know, real simple, non-rocket science type stuff.


How many models of Rune Priests are there? Not enough to cover all the possible wargear combinations I'll tell you that much.

Jidmah wrote:

Savageconvoy wrote:

Jidmah wrote: Because some of those models don't come with swords.

Boneswords
Targetting array
Iridium armor
Stimulant injector
Vectored retro thrusters

Your codex gives you permission to use all those.

What gives you permission to use power axes? The rulebook doesn't.

You still haven't shown what gives you the right to establish the norm against which a,, conversions are judged and deemed legal or not.
The rule book does not set this standard, as much as you keep preaching it does.

The codex, due to the FAQ, reads "power weapon". Define that for me. I'm not going to tell you what unit I'm referring to because there's no rule basis for it to matter.

Therion wrote:

pretre wrote:Did someone just try to get all legal on Polonius?

He seems to have silenced your crowd of deniers by admitting that this is a question of MFA and is merely debating the justifiable extent of it.

No, he simply is the only one who still bothers answering to you and your constant [insert socially acceptable term for trolling]. Do I have to bring up all the nonsense you've spouted in your haste to prove a point? So because we were the majority we're wrong?

Don't get all prickly because one in ten posts is directed to you.

Joe Mama wrote:

Jidmah wrote:What gives you permission to use power axes? The rulebook doesn't.

It does, you just don't understand that it does. WYSIWYG as outlined in the book, and referenced again in the section on Power Weapons, has nothing to do with what a Citdel Model is holding. But we're telling you legal wargear options are legal, and should be visibile on the model.


How many models of Rune Priests are there? Not enough to cover all the possible wargear combinations I'll tell you that much.

to be fair, you aren't really getting his point.

He's fine with anything the codex explicitly allows. There is no model for, say, a devestator sargeant with power fist. You can easily convert one. It's black and white allowed by codex.

The rule is not "any model armed with a power weapon may select an ax, maul, spear, or sword. This choice must be appropriately modelled." The rule is, whatever the model has, the model has. The only reason you can have a DCA with axes is because you modelled it. The very act of creating the model creates the option. Creating a devestator sgt with powerfist merely realizes the option.

Jidmah wrote:
As pointed out multiple times, I don't care what your models look like, as long as you make your best effort to use them like the official one.

That's called converting, and the rulebook specifically states that if a power weapon looks like X, then it receives X rules. The rulebook cares what your weapon looks like.

Something cannot be illegal unless there is a rule prohibiting it. There is none here. You can convert a model. You can take an option modelled. All legal.

There are house rules prohibiting conversions that give you an advantage.

It's a rules exploit. You can freely call it that if you'd like.

You're only repeating your previous posts. You and I have both agreed it's MFA and that MFA is a house rule -- A rule that makes the act in question and more blatant acts like grot sized Land Raider conversions illegal. We either follow that rule or we don't, but I find it mysterious you'd all of a sudden say there are no rules prohibiting exploits such as these when we've been discussing these house rules all the time.

What stores don't allow conversions? Or are you saying he has no GW. I don't think that's what he meant by scratch built either.

And what store enforces GW only nowadays?

rigeld2 wrote:

Jidmah wrote:So, unless you are looking at a model modified from the norm, you'd find swords on DCA and crusaders. Thus, unless you modify your model for an advantage, you wouldn't be able to find a power axe, spear or lance.

Establish the norm. The rule book doesn't - what is allowing you to? Again, you're drawing a completely arbitrary line with zero rules support.

Just because you ignored it.

Besides, just count them as swords? Sheesh.

But then I'm not WYSIWYG. and there are some GW bits, but he sculpted the minis.

Shandara wrote:On a related tangent. What happens if a Howling Banshee gets an axe (or 2) and charges. I1 or I10?

The rule for modifiers says that modifiers that 'set' a stat value are applied last, but doesn't say how to apply them or in what order.

I believe you could use the precedent set in the necron faq
"Q; If a model with whip coils is in base contact with a model with an Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. an Eldar banshee Mask ect.), which order are the initiatives modified? (p44)
A; as a 'set value modifier' the Whip Coils effect is applied after all other modifiers. If the model is effected by another set value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start of each Fight sub-phase.

This would in effect give each banshee a 50% chance each turn of hitting at I1 or I10 with a power axe.

Wow, 11 pages of MFA talk and maybe 4-5 posts about what actually matters with the topic. The actual gameplay issue is that by allowing the DCA access to power axes and not giving power axes the specialist rule, they have allowed for DCA to become silly in CC, getting bonus attacks with both the sword and the axe. What this ruling will come down to really is how the TO rule, and rule before tournaments. If you playing with friends and they pull this on you, might want to think about your friendship situation with said person

First: accusations that someone is "trolling" are inappropriate for Dakka, and may result in warnings and/or sanctions. If you think a post is a violation of Dakka's posting rules, hit the "Alert Moderator" button. If you find you don't enjoy a particular poster's posting style, make use of the "Ignore" feature.

Second, chill out people. If you can't discuss the new rules, which are less than 5 days old, without resorting to personal attacks then you are taking this game WAY too seriously.

Therion wrote:

Something cannot be illegal unless there is a rule prohibiting it. There is none here. You can convert a model. You can take an option modelled. All legal.

There are house rules prohibiting conversions that give you an advantage.

It's a rules exploit. You can freely call it that if you'd like.

You're only repeating your previous posts. You and I have both agreed it's MFA and that MFA is a house rule. A rule that makes the act in question and more blatant acts like grot sized Land Raider conversions illegal.

I don't consider something illegal by house rule illegal.

It's semantics, but that would be "disallowed."

I mean, none of this is governmental, so nothing is or isn't "legal."

Legal is sloppy short hand for RAW, I guess.

Also, the very fact that MFA is a house rule means that local variations exist. You clearly see no room for it. Virtually all touranments and stores, at least near me, allow quite a bit of latitude. A situation like this wouldn't even been seen as MFA, because most people are going to intepret the power weapon rule as allowing free reign to, well, model to advantage.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

moosifer wrote:Wow, 11 pages of MFA talk and maybe 4-5 posts about what actually matters with the topic. The actual gameplay issue is that by allowing the DCA access to power axes and not giving power axes the specialist rule, they have allowed for DCA to become silly in CC, getting bonus attacks with both the sword and the axe. What this ruling will come down to really is how the TO rule, and rule before tournaments. If you playing with friends and they pull this on you, might want to think about your friendship situation with said person

I'm not sure allowing the DCAs to swing with power axes is as monstrously overpowered as you seem to think. Certianly not enough to influence most friendships.

moosifer wrote:Wow, 11 pages of MFA talk and maybe 4-5 posts about what actually matters with the topic. The actual gameplay issue is that by allowing the DCA access to power axes and not giving power axes the specialist rule, they have allowed for DCA to become silly in CC, getting bonus attacks with both the sword and the axe. What this ruling will come down to really is how the TO rule, and rule before tournaments. If you playing with friends and they pull this on you, might want to think about your friendship situation with said person

Once again, since you missed it, DCA, even with Axes, are WORSE than they are in 5th edition. Yup, that's right, they are still worse than before. But even if this made them better than in 5th, it'd still be legal. Pointing out how good or bad the combo is *not* an argument for the legality of the combo. Furthermore, this issue applies to Every. Single. Entry. which lists 'power weapon' as an option. This isn't about DCA.

Polonius wrote:I don't consider something illegal by house rule illegal.

It's semantics, but that would be "disallowed."

So you have a problem with me calling your commissar example illegal but not punishable, and then say that grot Land Raiders are not illegal but disallowed? Disallowed on the merits of your house rule. You're right that it's nothing but semantics, so I can't see what real world difference it has if we just call DCA with power axes and swords disallowed instead of illegal.

Joe Mama wrote:Under the Therion / Jidmah theory of MFA, taking two free flamers with my GH squad is MFA. Literally everything is MFA. They have drawn a line in the sand, but it is an absurd line, which not only includes the sand on the beach, but every piece of land on all of Earth.

It really isn't, and you'r enot helping anything by not trying to understand their point better.

Two free flamers are explicitly allowed by codex.

DCAs are not explicitly allowed axes. They are only allowed "waht the model has." They are therefore only allowed axes due to modelling.

Thus, modelling grants an advantage that did not exist prior to the modelling.

Polonius wrote:DCAs are not explicitly allowed axes. They are only allowed "waht the model has." They are therefore only allowed axes due to modelling.

Thus, modelling grants an advantage that did not exist prior to the modelling.

DCAs are explictly allowed axes though. They have two weapons, of the category 'Power Weapons' - Axes are in that category. The way you know which weapon they have, while playing the game, is to LOOK AT THEM. Just like you look at the flamer to know a marine has a flamer.


Or are you claiming the chart listing the type of Power Weapons does not explicitly tell us what the rulebook means by 'power weapons'?
Follow up question - If you say yes to the first question, what exactly are DCA explictly allowed melee wise? Nothing?