Replacing stock PW swords with Axe to get the new 6ed Axe's rule (AP2, Int1)

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**Polonius**

Therion wrote:
Polonius wrote:I don't consider something illegal by house rule illegal.

It's semantics, but that would be "disallowed."

So you have a problem with me calling your commissar example illegal but not punishable, and then say that grot Land Raiders are not illegal but disallowed? Disallowed on the merits of your house rule. You're right that it's nothing but semantics, so I can't see what real world difference it has if we just call DCA with power axes and swords disallowed instead of illegal.

I would say that the RAW allows either my commisar with ax, or a grot tank landraider.

The former will be disallowed in few locations, as few people see using an old conversion as WYSIWYG as bad, even if they reject the idea that pwoer weapons now have unlimited choice. A grot tank is a clear abuse from the get go, and will be protested pretty universally.

In the real world, few places will disallow the DCA. RAW allows it, and it's not abusive.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joe Mama wrote:
Polonius wrote:DCAs are not explicitly allowed axes. They are only allowed "waht the model has." They are therefore only allowed axes due to modelling.

Thus, modelling grants an advantage that did not exist prior to the modelling.

DCAs are explictly allowed axes though. They have two weapons, of the category 'Power Weapons' - Axes are in that category. The way you know which weapon they have, while playing the game, is to LOOK AT THEM. Just like you look at the flamer to know a marine has a flamer.

Or are you claiming the chart listing the type of Power Weapons does not explicitly tell us what the rulebook means by 'power weapons'?

It says to look at the model. It does not say you can model tehm with axes.

Prior to any conversion to an ax, there does not exist the option to give them an ax. You have to create a model with an ax for the option to gain an ax to appear.

It's convoluted, which is why I reject the idea. It bascially states that the option to build a DCA with axes doesn't exist until it's actually built.

**Therion**

In the real world, few places will disallow the DCA. RAW allows it, and it's not abusive.

You're speculating. We have to wait for quite a while before 6th edition has really sunken into the scene as a whole and we can start making universal declarations like that.

**Joe Mama**

Polonius wrote:It does not say you can model tehm with axes.

Under 6th edition, what are DCA explicitly allowed, melee wise? Nothing?

**Kiredor**

The Power Weapon is determined by the MODEL.

You don't get to choose, RAW.

I have more arguments, but others have made them more clearly, really its just that, although you can model axes on your DCA, there is no rule allowing a PLAYER to decide what weapon his model has, so modelling a model with different weapons is Technically MFA. (imo)

edit: Personally I would let it happen, I just agree that its not totally legal (In a technicality way)

**Joe Mama**

Kiredor wrote:The Power Weapon is determined by the MODEL.

Which model? I have a potential model, which is in a unit, which can get a "power weapon." There's no model for this guy. So... I can't field him? He's invisible?

**insaniak**

Jidmah wrote:They gain permission to use all those parts by the codex. No such thing is happening for power weapons. Are not told to pick one of them. Thus you can not. You use any power weapon that is provided for your model. Then, when you need its rules (which is long after building the list) you now can tell by looking at your model.

Which brings us back to Space Marine Captains being legally allowed to use power axes... but only if they are Finecast, not plastic.

For what it's worth, I can understand the interpretation that the weapon you use should depend on the model... I just don't think that applying that interpretation that strictly actually makes any sense. The rule telling us to go by the model isn't (IMO) intended to stop you from modelling whichever weapon you want.. .it's intended to make identification simple on the tabletop - If it looks like an axe, it's an axe.

Claiming that a player is cheating because he swapped a sword for an axe, when both come from the same weapon option, just leads to silliness like the aforementioned Captain. Whatever inadvertant rules travesties GW have come out with over the years, I refuse to accept that they intended for a model's legal load-out to be dependant on the material the model you buy is made from.

**Kiredor**

Technically, only if your opponent agrees.

I would, but i can understand why people wouldn't.

Just like how I allow proxies.

Or even circles of cardboard.

edit (Aimed at Joe Mama)

I fully accept that the intent of the rule is to allow conversions with different weapons.

I just also understand that people could view it as MFA, unless directly specified.

**CleverAntics**

The ability to 'give' your models any type of Power Weapon, in my opinion, is fine; the fact that the said model has a particular special rule/wargear attribute that provides and/or alters the negative of the Power Weapon is indeed unfair.

As is mentioned, it essentially boils down to that, and as the BRB didn't specify anything, people are going to take advantage of that vague wording and take advantage of any special rules, etc.

That is where the MFA comes into play; otherwise, I believe it to be fair.

**Joe Mama**

Kiredor wrote:edit (Aimed at Joe Mama)

I fully accept that the intent of the rule is to allow conversions with different weapons.

I just also understand that people could view it as MFA, unless directly specified.

So, what do I do with a guy I have to build, which there is no model for, which can take a power weapon? Cry in a corner in despair, because I am not permitted to give him ANY type of power weapon, since no model of the guy exists? Assume he can be made from a kit, which has multiple types of power weapon options. Then answer again assuming he cannot be made from a kit.

After you answer that, tell me what happens if a model exists, but it has been out of circulation for 20 years (so it is no longer made), and it is also the wrong size compared to current infantry models of the exact same type (ie marine or guard). Do I have to use that model's power weapon type and do I have to make a model the same exact size?

What if it is for sale, but only in Japan, and in fact was never for sale in my country?

What if GW had a special super rare version of Model X, with a different type of power weapon, where only 5 were made, and never sold to anyone, but given out as prizes. Can I use that wargear option?

What if the super special rare versions were made, shown to everyone and well known, but then in a freak accident were destroyed by a meteor. That's right, a meteor, not a meteorite.

They were never made again. They literally do not exist anymore, except perhaps, in our hearts. Can I use their wargear?

**kirsanth**

Converting is apparently ok, so long as you do not actually convert anything, but instead create a new model.

Or something like that; it almost makes sense though if you read it fast enough.

editing to add my reference:

Jidmah wrote:Only by converting or scratch building you are ever allowed to use axes on a DCA.

Note that I have never met anyone or read anyone positing that swapping weapons is anything other than converting, but hey - its not my point to make.

**Kiredor**

So, what do I do with a guy I have to build, which there is no model for, which can take a power weapon? Cry in a corner in despair, because I am not permitted to give him ANY type of power weapon, since no model of the guy exists?

Or accept that maybe, somewhere, is the kind of person who WILL argue with you about it?

What happens about bases in that situation? What height is the guy meant to be? There are always issues around 'models' (game term) that dont have proper 'models' (physical things).

Its all down to the people playing each individual game.

edit Response is to your original, preedited message.

To your current one,

Its all down to the people playing each individual game.

Thats it, really.

**Maige**

OK try this on for size.....

A Dark Eldar Archon (and many others) comes with the option of replacing their pistol and CCW with a large variety of options. However the blister pack only comes with a husk blade and a soul trap, which funnily enough is not even his default wargear, but rather an expensive combo. In order to represent his options you must kitbash (usually with Wyches/Kabalites) and this is shown in the codex itself.

However a problem emerges where there is a sever lack of right hand CCWs....

Say you want your Archon to have an Agonizer and a Venom blade, in order to put one of those in his right hand you must take the weapons from the Scourge kit and cut off one from the hand, then find a right arm and do the same thing (lets say a splinter pistol) and then glue the weapon on.

Is this MFA? Even though it is 100% legal and endorsed by the codex? (This is also the only way to model duel-wielders like Duke Sliscus and Drazhar).

Now that there are different power weapons I could take an Archon with a power sword and a power spear (which used to be the 'same weapon'), or maybe take the polearm from the raider kit add a stray blade and make it a power halberd (axe).

You see chopping and gluing bits was mandatory in 5th as well. What makes power weapon types different? As long as the wargear option is there it can be done. In fact there are plenty of CCWs that don't even exist in model form (Djin Blade/DemiKlaive) you have to make your own.

**Joe Mama**

Kiredor wrote:
So, what do I do with a guy I have to build, which there is no model for, which can take a power weapon? Cry in a corner in despair, because I am not permitted to give him ANY type of power weapon, since no model of the guy exists?

Or accept that maybe, somewhere, is the kind of person who WILL argue with you about it?

What happens about bases in that situation? What height is the guy meant to be? There are always issues around 'models' (game term) that dont have proper 'models' (physical things).

Its all down to the people playing each individual game.

Oh I should clarify. There are parts to make the guy, parts at exactly the right size. There just exists no MODEL of the dude with a power weapon ANYWHERE. GW has NEVER sold one. GW has sold one with a chainsword, but not one with a "power weapon" whatever that is

. How the heck can I figure out which kind of power weapon to give the guy (the kit has all these options which scares me)? Please help me because I am crying already and I didn't even get to the corner yet.

**Destrado**

Jidmah wrote:
By using the 'eavy armor bits from the boyz sprue or nobz sprue (steel jaw, extra-spiky shoulders). If you fancy, you could even get the metal 'eavy armor bits.

Yeah, but there isn't exactly anything to go by when we say 'Eavy Armour. Less so in the case of Boyz, but what you count as 'Eavy Armour I could very well assume were the Nobz with the Jaw and some larger shoulder pads, since the official, old metal Nobz with 'Eavy Armour resemble the AOBR nobz, and the latter are stated in the AOBR rulebook to have a 6+ save.

Some of them were, some of them weren't. Funny that you mention the vendetta guy. He actually lifted his vendetta up whenever it needed to shoot or be shot. His flying stand had been stole by someone, and didn't know where to get a new one. The worst TFG was actually the tau player.

Well that makes sense. Who would steal a flying stand, anyway? Geeze.

As pointed out multiple times, I don't care what your models look like, as long as you make your best effort to use them like the official one.
There is a player here playing "The greater good guard", which is basically a random collection of half-painted models arranged to fit the guard codex. I play him quite often, even though he uses Karandras as Creed.

That is because CREED! is all there is!

Are there axes and swords in their box? I honestly don't know. If yes, sure whatever. Otherwise, I'd inform you that they can't have axes normally.

They don't come with axes, there isn't a single axe in the box or any Dark Eldar box for that matter :( Well, I'd have to tell you that there weren't axes that looked eldar-ish enough to me, so my Dark Eldar from the Twisted Rune use a heavier sword that is a lot more unwieldy and gives them +1 Str and AP2, at the cost of striking at I1, since the "swords" they use are better represented by the Power Axe rules.

For me the DCA is no different than someone buying a box of Grey Knights and equipping them with whatever is considered the best loadout (Four Halberds and a Hammer?). You're taking a unit and equipping it to suit a battlefield role. The difference being, Terminator Grey Knights have the options, at no cost, to exchange their Nemesis Sword for a Halberd or even the Daemon Hammer (which is basically a Power Fist!) - different wargear at the same points cost, and with much broader differences in gameplay that the miserly DCA having both a PSword and a PAxe.

**Kiredor**

Joe Mama wrote:
Kiredor wrote:
So, what do I do with a guy I have to build, which there is no model for, which can take a power weapon? Cry in a corner in despair, because I am not permitted to give him ANY type of power weapon, since no model of the guy exists?

Or accept that maybe, somewhere, is the kind of person who WILL argue with you about it?

What happens about bases in that situation? What height is the guy meant to be? There are always issues around 'models' (game term) that dont have proper 'models' (physical things).

Its all down to the people playing each individual game.

Oh I should clarify. There are parts to make the guy, parts at exactly the right size. There just exists no MODEL of the dude with a power weapon ANYWHERE. GW has NEVER sold one. GW has sold one with a chainsword, but not one with a "power weapon" whatever that is . How the heck can I figure out which kind of power weapon to give the guy (the kit has all these options which scares me)? Please help me because I am crying already and I didn't even get to the corner yet.

Er. I guess I'll go find my Cure CDs for ya?

I really don't know, just that someone, out there, MIGHT have an issue with it, and leave it at that?

I just can understand where, for the sake of something like DCA, people could have an issue with it.

I can't really add any more,

sorry.

**kirsanth**

If you are so concerned about what someone, somewhere, might think about something creative you may do, that you change your mind. . .just wow.

**Joe Mama**

Someone needs to make a flow-chart or something so we can follow to figure out what we can do. There are SO many questions, I am literally balling in the corner.

What to do when taking the 'Power Weapon' option.

- Does a model with a power weapon exist? Yes / No
- If No, cannot create your own, model cannot be fielded.
- If Yes, how many types?
1? You are done. You can only field that specific power weapon.
2+? Ok, randomly select between the 2+ options, because by RAW you a human being cannot decide which type of power weapon to take.

**kirsanth**

Joe Mama wrote:Someone needs to make a flow-chart or something so we can follow to figure out what we can do. There are SO many questions, I am literally balling in the corner.

What to do when taking the 'Power Weapon' option.

1. Do your house rules permit it?
If no, ask the house.
If no house rules or YES, play 40k.

**Joe Mama**

Kiredor wrote:
Joe Mama wrote:
Kiredor wrote:
So, what do I do with a guy I have to build, which there is no model for, which can take a power weapon? Cry in a corner in despair, because I am not permitted to give him ANY type of power weapon, since no model of the guy exists?

Or accept that maybe, somewhere, is the kind of person who WILL argue with you about it?

What happens about bases in that situation? What height is the guy meant to be? There are always issues around 'models' (game term) that dont have proper 'models' (physical things).

Its all down to the people playing each individual game.

Oh I should clarify. There are parts to make the guy, parts at exactly the right size. There just exists no MODEL of the dude with a power weapon ANYWHERE. GW has NEVER sold one. GW has sold one with a chainsword, but not one with a "power weapon" whatever that is . How the heck can I figure out which kind of power weapon to give the guy (the kit has all these options which scares me)? Please help me because I am crying already and I didn't even get to the corner yet.

Er. I guess I'll go find my Cure CDs for ya?

I really don't know, just that someone, out there, MIGHT have an issue with it, and leave it at that?

I just can understand where, for the sake of something like DCA, people could have an issue with it.

I can't really add any more,

sorry.

You said this before "You don't get to choose, RAW." But now after I posed a basic question to you, you gave up. You didn't even *attempt* to answer. Oh well, thanks anyway.

**SonofTerra**

Therion wrote:
kirsanth wrote:Page reference?

The page reference you're looking for is from any book that teaches you English. You need to first figure out what 'modelling' means; what 'for' means; and what 'advantage' means. They you can take part in the discussion. It just so happens that I'm a generous guy so I'll help you out:

1) I look at the Death Cult Assassin model and notice it's holding power swords. I don't like power swords. What I do like however is a combination of power swords and axes.
2) I then take a miniature, and MODEL it to have an axe and a sword.
3) I agree that it gives me an ADVANTAGE during games because I can now attack with either weapon depending on situation. It's something I could not do unless I modeled.

-Because I'm not clinically insane and don't want to embarass myself, if asked, I'll tell anyone that the motivation behind the very specific combination of axe and the sword wasn't aesthetic, it was gameplay reasons. That explains the word FOR in the sentence that you're wondering about. It's causation. It links the act and the end result together.

-Summa summarum: I modeled for advantage. Everything I've said and done proves it beyond reasonable doubt.

Now the only room for debate is whether I think modelling for advantage is acceptable or not. Jidmah's reasoning is sound. If you think modeling for advantage is acceptable, the sky and our twisted imagination is the only limit. A word of warning though: I've been playing for 20 years and been going to tournaments for 15 of those years and never has modelling for advantage been allowed. It leads to the disqualification of your units or a points reduction or both.

WOW, i almost died laughing reading this quote, here let me try! CHANGES IN BOLD!

1) I look at the SPACE MARINE CAPTAIN model and notice it's holding a COMBI-PLASMA. I don't like COMBI-PLASMAS. What I do like however is a COMBI-FLAMER.
2) I then take a miniature, and MODEL it to have a COMBI-FLAMER.
3) I agree that it gives me an ADVANTAGE during games because I can now BLAST HORDE ARMIES WITH A TEMPLATE WEAPON. It's something I could not do unless I modeled.

OF course, when asked why I did this, i will say because i think flamers are better.

Proof that its modelling for advantage.

**kirsanth**

+1 SonofTerra, you obviously have a better grasp of English than I do.

**A Town Called Malus**

Polonius wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:
Polonius wrote:DCAs are not explicitly allowed axes. They are only allowed "waht the model has." They are therefore only allowed axes due to modelling.

Thus, modelling grants an advantage that did not exist prior to the modelling.

DCAs are explictly allowed axes though. They have two weapons, of the category 'Power Weapons' - Axes are in that category. The way you know which weapon they have, while playing the game, is to LOOK AT THEM. Just like you look at the flamer to know a marine has a flamer.

Or are you claiming the chart listing the type of Power Weapons does not explicitly tell us what the rulebook means by 'power weapons'?

It says to look at the model. It does not say you can model tehm with axes.

Prior to any conversion to an ax, there does not exist the option to give them an ax. You have to create a model with an ax for the option to gain an ax to appear.

It's convoluted, which is why I reject the idea. It bascially states that the option to build a DCA with axes doesn't exist until it's actually built.

Surely no model using the old "Power Weapon" wargear entry has the option to gain an axe until it has been built with an axe?

**Thunderfrog**

Changing tack...

Suppose that GW does eventually say that a squad of DCA can model whatever the hell weapons they want on there and they are legit.. I could see a lot of headaches.

I have ..

4 with axe/sword
3 with maul/axe
1 with maul/stave
1 with sword/spear
1 with spear/axe

Yikes!

**Therion**

SonofTerra wrote:Proof that its modelling for advantage.

So uninteresting. Your analogy is absolutely miserable and your post isn't even really on topic. What you should've done is try to argue that what I said in my post either is a) not modeling for advantage or b) modeling for advantage but still either legal or just allowed. Instead you wanted to tell us that you almost died of laughter when you read something that actually made sense, and it motivated you to write something totally nonsensical.

**kirsanth**

A Town Called Malus wrote:Surely no model using the old "Power Weapon" wargear entry has the option to gain an axe until it has been built with an axe?

Ok, but people are saying you are not allowed to build it with one since GW does not have pictures of that on their website.

I think everyone agrees that models with an axe have an axe, and those without do not.
Some people just think that the rulebook option to use a power weapon that looks like an axe as a power axe cannot be used even if codex legal and WYSIWYG with GW bits and models.

**Eldarain**

The problem I have with it is switching only one of a model's (which doesn't pay for it's power weapons separately) two power weapons.

It seems wrong to be able to give a unit tactical utility that wasn't intended when it's rules were written.

**kirsanth**

Therion wrote:So uninteresting.

He was pointing out absurdity, not trying to interest you.

Harping on MFA is basically against board rules though, unless I misread.

That is not a game rule, FAQ, or anything supported now.
The rules themselves do not back you - and falling back to dictionary words for game usage is also wrong, akin to implying my grasp of English was the problem instead of my inability to take your house rules to heart.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldarain wrote:The problem I have with it is switching only one of a model's (which doesn't pay for it's power weapons separately) two power weapons.

It seems wrong to be able to give a unit tactical utility that wasn't intended when it's rules were written.

So what if it isn't switched? The codex does NOT say they have power swords, only power weapons, and the main rules say that power weapons can be multiple things - thus the debate.

**Joe Mama**

Eldarain wrote:The problem I have with it is switching only one of a model's (which doesn't pay for it's power weapons separately) two power weapons.

It seems wrong to be able to give a unit tactical utility that wasn't intended when it's rules were written.

DCA are far worse now than they were in 5th edition, even with the axe / sword combo.

PS - How do you know GW's intent, are you a spy?

**A Town Called Malus**

Eldarain wrote:The problem I have with it is switching only one of a model's (which doesn't pay for it's power weapons separately) two power weapons.

It seems wrong to be able to give a unit tactical utility that wasn't intended when it's rules were written.

What tactical utility is it gaining? The ability to negate a 2+ save?

When the rules were written it did that with its power weapons, no matter what they looked like.

**Therion**

Harping on MFA is basically against board rules though, unless I misread.

Yet the moderators themselves have partaken in the discussion and allowed this to go on for 12 pages when it was obvious from the start it was only going to be a last word contest, back patting and attempts of shout downing those who were putting forward reasonable arguments. The appearance of Polonius and his admittance that this is a clear case of MFA but should still be allowed saved the discussion from becoming a total travesty. Frankly, there's no further need for this thread to be open. We've established the issues and agreed that MFA is a house rule and that the extent of allowable MFA depends from club to club, and that only time will tell if an universal interpretation of these rules manifests itself or not.