US Army defines Christian ministry as 'domestic hate group'

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**Peregrine**

djones520 wrote:
You're the one who made the statement that the folks out there are doing it because of racism.

No I didn't. I said that SOME of them are doing it because of racism.

Firstly, you provided nothing to back up your claim.

I also haven't provided anything to back up my claim that the sky is blue.

Secondly, you worded it to imply all groups, as many of us took it.

No I didn't, because the context of the statement was a direct reply about groups mentioned by the SPLC. They claimed that it was unfair for the SPLC to list them as hate groups, I pointed out that they're being listed as hate groups for a very good reason.

Now if you wanted to clarify that you were only speaking of groups spcifically mentioned by the SPLC, then that would clear a lot of the issue up.

That is what I said.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I was trying so hard not to point out the irony myself
First he complains about people misreading his comment, then he misreads mine

Oh, I know exactly what you said. I was criticizing you for complaining about a vague "some people" when nobody involved in the discussion is one of them.

**Dreadclaw69**

Peregrine wrote:
Oh, I know exactly what you said. I was criticizing you for complaining about a vague "some people" when nobody involved in the discussion is one of them.

So if you knew what I said why did you make the mistake of thinking I was referring to the SPLC instead of taking it as an aside concerning some people's opinion on immigration?

**Peregrine**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So if you knew what I said why did you make the mistake of thinking I was referring to the SPLC instead of taking it as an aside concerning some people's opinion on immigration?

Again, I was criticizing you for making an aside about "some people" that isn't relevant to the current discussion.

**reds8n**

Indeed none of the last few posts have been relevant so we'll leave this thoroughly pointless tangent here, now.

Is the terrifying graphic that started this whole affair off.

If one actually takes into account the text at the bottom, which is mysteriously absent in most of the reports about this

http://nation.foxnews.com/religion/2013/04/05/us-army-labeled-evangelicals-catholics-examples-religious-extremism

it's not really quite such a massive deal as some would have one believe perhaps.

**generalgrog**

Talk about a broad brush...

That list is a perfect example of such. You have evangelical Christianity and Al queda on the same list? Wow.

GG

**Frazzled**

Evangelical Christians are extreme? Catholics are extreme? Only to an atheist. Thats 95% of all Christians in the US and the majority of all Christians.

You just equated Sunni Muslims, and most Christians with the KKK. Do you realize how offensive that is?

What kind of bs are you selling me?

**whembly**

Jihadin wrote:
Peregrine

I can't use neo confederacy as an example as a Hate Group. Yes I can view them and say "IMO I feel they are a possible Hate Group". Its not my place to decide US Military policy on making a "Official decision" on any particular group. I can only give the frame work of what makes a group either a Hate or Extremist group.

KKK, Neo Nazi, Black Panther, or any particular group with a proven Hate theme I can get away with and use them as an example as extreme. The EOA/EO guy that threw AFA or whatever Christian Group that this dilemma snowballed into was lazy and just created power point slides with a list copied from SPLC and stood by it and got challenge by a Chaplain of all things. The instructor is suppose to conduct a class and facilitate it with the typical standard that stays within a given guide line. He/she is not suppose to lose control of his/her class by any means possible. He/she lost credibility in front of his/her peers and seniors by not going off a approve training program.

Instructor also used powerpoint... isn't that heresy?

Dang it... SPLC would probably classify me as a hater for hating-on powerpoint presentations.

**nels1031**

Wow, reds8n.

Tell me you are trolling.

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:
Evangelical Christians are extreme? Catholics are extreme? Only to an atheist. Thats 95% of all Christians in the US and the majority of all Christians.

According to Pew It's actually about 50%.

**djones520**

dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Evangelical Christians are extreme? Catholics are extreme? Only to an atheist. Thats 95% of all Christians in the US and the majority of all Christians.

According to Pew It's actually about 50%.

Well you've gotta keep in mind Frazzled penchent for exageration.

I find it interesting that Atheists only make up 1.6%, considering all the ruccus they raise.

**Frazzled**

dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Evangelical Christians are extreme? Catholics are extreme? Only to an atheist. Thats 95% of all Christians in the US and the majority of all Christians.

According to Pew It's actually about 50%.

The majority of the US are either Catholic or evangelical. That leaves Mormons (who are arguably are a subgroup of evangelical), and all fifteen people who belong to the Lutheran and Episcopal chuches.

**Peregrine**

Frazzled wrote:
Evangelical Christians are extreme? Catholics are extreme? Only to an atheist.

Not even to most atheists. That list is just stupid. Not only do those groups not belong on a list of extremists they're also hopelessly broad. "Catholicism" covers everything from the ultra-conservatives to the most liberal "go to church on christmas" types. I don't think you'll find many atheists that would argue that all of them are religious extremists.

**Frazzled**

And whats up with Sunni Muslims extremists? Thats like saying Catholics are extremists. Oh wait...

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:

The majority of the US are either Catholic or evangelical. That leaves Mormons (who are arguably are a subgroup of evangelical), and all fifteen people who belong to the Lutheran and Episcopal chuches.

If those two groups constitute the majority of Christians in the US, it is a very slim one.

Of course, I suspect you're speaking from a Texan perspective; where Catholics and Evangelicals make up ~60% of the Christian population.

**nels1031**

dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Evangelical Christians are extreme? Catholics are extreme? Only to an atheist. Thats 95% of all Christians in the US and the majority of all Christians.

According to Pew It's actually about 50%.

Could be 1% and it would still be a ridiculous list.

I also like how the Hezbollah flag is pictured and the organization is not listed.

**Frazzled**

dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

The majority of the US are either Catholic or evangelical. That leaves Mormons (who are arguably are a subgroup of evangelical), and all fifteen people who belong to the Lutheran and Episcopal chuches.

If those two groups constitute the majority of Christians in the US, it is a very slim one.

Of course, I suspect you're speaking from a Texan perspective; where Catholics and Evangelicals make up ~60% of the Christian population.

Who else?
-Methodists,
-Eastern Orthodox. OK that could be a big group in the northeast.
-Baptists are under the evangelical
Who else?

**djones520**

Frazzled wrote:
dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

The majority of the US are either Catholic or evangelical. That leaves Mormons (who are arguably are a subgroup of evangelical), and all fifteen people who belong to the Lutheran and Episcopal chuches.

If those two groups constitute the majority of Christians in the US, it is a very slim one.

Of course, I suspect you're speaking from a Texan perspective; where Catholics and Evangelicals make up ~60% of the Christian population.

Who else?
-Methodists,
-Eastern Orthodox. OK that could be a big group in the northeast.
-Baptists are under the evangelical
Who else?

It starts with a P...

**whembly**

Frazzled wrote:
dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

The majority of the US are either Catholic or evangelical. That leaves Mormons (who are arguably are a subgroup of evangelical), and all fifteen people who belong to the Lutheran and Episcopal chuches.

If those two groups constitute the majority of Christians in the US, it is a very slim one.

Of course, I suspect you're speaking from a Texan perspective; where Catholics and Evangelicals make up ~60% of the Christian population.

Who else?
-Methodists,
-Eastern Orthodox. OK that could be a big group in the northeast.
-Baptists are under the evangelical
Who else?

Don't forget the "Church of What's Happening Now".

**Frazzled**

NELS1031 wrote:
dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Evangelical Christians are extreme? Catholics are extreme? Only to an atheist. Thats 95% of all Christians in the US and the majority of all Christians.

According to Pew It's actually about 50%.

Could be 1% and it would still be a ridiculous list.

I also like how the Hezbollah flag is pictured and the organization is not listed.

Fair points.
What are Sunnis, half a billion? Three Quarters? Add them into the Catholics and we're talking what 1/3 the globe's population. Really?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

djones520 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

The majority of the US are either Catholic or evangelical. That leaves Mormons (who are arguably are a subgroup of evangelical), and all fifteen people who belong to the Lutheran and Episcopal chuches.

If those two groups constitute the majority of Christians in the US, it is a very slim one.

Of course, I suspect you're speaking from a Texan perspective; where Catholics and Evangelicals make up ~60% of the Christian population.

Who else?
-Methodists,
-Eastern Orthodox. OK that could be a big group in the northeast.
-Baptists are under the evangelical
Who else?

It starts with a P...

Polish Kielbasa? Now thats a church I want to be a part of.

**reds8n**

NELS1031 wrote:
Wow, reds8n.

Tell me you are trolling.

Bit too dry there huh ?

Although I also think the reaction has been somewhat OTT since then....

but it's a slow news day after all I guess...

I think I can see what the original author was trying to say, and I guess there's limits on what one can fit onto a ..a.. slide ? .. cell ? screen..? but one would suggest then that if what you're trying to show doesn't neatly fit into whatever then perhaps whatever is not the best medium for it.

**Allod**

reds8n wrote:

Wow. Just wow.

I don't think I have seen anything more stupid the whole month, and we just had elections!

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:

-Baptists are under the evangelical
Who else?

Baptists would be split between several different classifications used in the data I presented, in fact all 3 of the Protestant ones.

Though it seems I misinterpreted that data. I assumed 51.3% of 78.4% indicated 39.2% and carried this interpretation down the line. What the relevant data actually indicates is that ~62% of US Christians are either Evangelical or Catholic, meaning that Fraz is right; if hyperbolic.

Frazzled wrote:

What are Sunnis, half a billion? Three Quarters? Add them into the Catholics and we're talking what 1/3 the globe's population. Really?

The slide did specifically mention Iraq regarding Sunnis.

**Frazzled**

Wait, I missed it, the above list includes Mormons as well. Who made up this list?

**reds8n**

Not sure, and the story is a few months old so data is scattered.

Looks like the whole show can be seen online

http://www.adfmedia.org/files/ExtremismPresentation.pdf

.. I'm guessing some of the gang names on #28 maybe don't translate well..?

The text seems to come from

http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/dealing-extremists

**Frazzled**

That doesn't do anything. Its even more insulting, tying 2bn people to the likes of the Nazis and gang members. What kind of crap is this?

EDIT: and whats up with PA and all the groups?

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:
That doesn't do anything. Its even more insulting, tying 2bn people to the likes of the Nazis and gang members. What kind of crap is this?

How did you arrive at the number of 2 billion?

**Frazzled**

dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
That doesn't do anything. Its even more insulting, tying 2bn people to the likes of the Nazis and gang members. What kind of crap is this?

How did you arrive at the number of 2 billion?

No problem, but a quick reference shows I understated it
It lists:

1. Sunni muslims
Wiki: total population 87% sunni of 1.4bn muslims: 1.2bn at 2010

2. Catholics worldwide:
wiki: 1.2bn at 2011

So 2.4ish bn. Way to piss off a large group of people.

**-Shrike-**

So (% of world's population):
Catholics - 19%
Sunni ~ 19% (roughly)

That's 38% of the planet's population labelled as extremists. What a load of gak.

EDIT: Frazzled knows what he's talking about. ^

**Seaward**

Kilkrazy wrote:
I would suggest you take it up with the FBI, as they monitor hate groups and presumably have some criteria for identifying them other than gut feeling.

I don't believe I need to, as I'm pretty familiar with the law over here.

You're aware we don't have laws against hate groups, right? You continue to speak about us as though we're your beloved Europe, where people are thrown in jail for racist tweets and groups are hunted down simply for existing. We don't do that over here. It's not illegal to be a Black Panther member. You don't end up on a domestic terrorist list, as you earlier asserted, by saying something bad about homosexuals.

**Frazzled**

Don't forget the mormons. Don't ticke them off. They're the only group thats prepared for apocalypse. DON"T TICK EM OFF OR THEY"LL PUSH THE RED BUTTON!