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Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.

as void dragon said "Do tell me what killed Rogal Dorn. Please, by all means, do so. "

 Psienesis wrote:
Excepting... they weren't.

Some of the Primarchs died to purely conventional weapons.

We don't even know the name of the Chaos-aligned midshipman who punched Dorn's ticket. We don't know the name of the pasty point-ear who slapped Khan in chains. Jonson was felled by the psychic attack of a regular dude.

A 100lb monomolecular sword wielded by a superman capable of punching through tank armor with his bare hands is "conventional" how?
Context is everything.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.

the primarchs arn't mary sues.....i agree their not on superman level of powers..but their still vastly more powerful then any human in the 40k verse....

Not everyone who serves Chaos gets "amped". In fact, the vast majority of those who serve Chaos don't get a damn thing except maybe a new tentacle growing out of their arse.

The guys who killed Dorn? Just peons on a ship.

The Dark Elves, er, Eldar... who took Khan? Not amped by Chaos at all.

Luther? Little if any Chaos-amping there. He's just a traitor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Excepting... they weren't.

Some of the Primarchs died to purely conventional weapons.

We don't even know the name of the Chaos-aligned midshipman who punched Dorn's ticket. We don't know the name of the pasty point-ear who slapped Khan in chains. Jonson was felled by the psychic attack of a regular dude.

A 100lb monomolecular sword wielded by a superman capable of punching through tank armor with his bare hands is "conventional" how?
Context is everything.

I didn't mention Rowboat's head getting nearly chopped the feth off by Fulgrim, that's unconventional.

 Psienesis wrote:
Not everyone who serves Chaos gets "amped". In fact, the vast majority of those who serve Chaos don't get a damn thing except maybe a new tentacle growing out of their arse.

The guys who killed Dorn? Just peons on a ship.

The Dark Elves who took Khan? Not amped by Chaos at all.

Luther? Little if any Chaos-amping there. He's just a traitor.

what...Luther was defintely amped by chaos when he defeated the lion, and even then....The Lion actually wounded him and could of killed him, but he refused and then Luther struck back

LightKing wrote:
as void dragon said "Do tell me what killed Rogal Dorn. Please, by all means, do so. "

Rogal Dorn died during a boarding action on the Sword of Sacrilege.

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.

the primarchs arn't mary sues.....i agree their not on superman level of powers..but their still vastly more powerful then any human in the 40k verse....

I never said they were. I was remarking on you assertion that a primarch getting killed by conventional means is a sign of bad writing.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.

the primarchs arn't mary sues.....i agree their not on superman level of powers..but their still vastly more powerful then any human in the 40k verse....

I never said they were. I was remarking on you assertion that a primarch getting killed by conventional means is a sign of bad writing.

i think it is...when Magnus can kill hundreds of wolves by just using his mind

 Psienesis wrote:

LightKing wrote:
as void dragon said "Do tell me what killed Rogal Dorn. Please, by all means, do so. "

Rogal Dorn died during a boarding action on the Sword of Sacrilege.

To What?
It could have been an exalted greater daemon or some gak.

Psienesis wrote:Do you not understand how this works? The Sister of Battle is protected through her faith in the God-Emperor of Mankind. Is Magnus stronger than the Emperor? Feth no. That's a known quantity.
You know who seems to have the Sisters' backs? The God-Emperor, Himself.

Granted, that is very much a matter of interpretation, depending on where you look.
FFG's RPGs for example do indeed mirror your opinion, as Acts of Faith there are clearly a divine power. Tech-Priests in those games can do similar tricks, such as magically causing his or her allies' ranged weapons to magically unjam.
GW's own books, on the other hand, allow a much less bright interpretation, where a Sister's only power comes from herself due to sheer self-deceit, and where a Tech-Priest gets nothing but a knowledge bonus.

As always, it's a matter of interpretation. Personally, I prefer the various religions in the setting to have no grounds, because just like with other Imperial propaganda everything looks even more bleak once you consider that it's all just superstition and wishful thinking.

The same applies to the Primarchs, of course. In some Black Library novel, they may survive a Titan's plasma cannon, whereas in GW's own material Alpharius was almost gunned down by some human bridge officers' small arms upon his first meeting with Horus, and Rogal Dorn died during an attempt to board some random Chaos cruiser. It comes down to whether one prefers to see the setting as some sort of superhero comic, or rather a particularly lethal, dystopian environment where guns can kill anything, in turn making a life - any life - a bit less meaningful, because faceless numbers become more important than individual heroes.

That being said, GW's Angron (in Daemonprince form) is 500 points ... that's at least 3 squads of Sisters!

LightKing wrote:ok? thats what we call bad fluff/bad writing or PIS (plot-indused stupidity)

Funny, that is how I would describe the silliness in the Horus Heresy novels.

Perfect example of what I meant when I said earlier about the setting allowing for a lot of overlapping yet different interpretations.

ThePrimordial wrote:Scientifically they aren't due to the presence of two of every organ [...]

In GW's version of the setting, a Marine has a secondary heart and a third lung. That's it.
Then again, it is possible that you've read something different elsewhere, I suppose. This is 40k, after all.

ThePrimordial wrote:Bolter rounds dont do gak to power armor and in the HH marines take Bolter wounds like normal gun wounds. Notice how bolsters are AP:5? Yeah that's meant to represent the above.

Any weapon in 40k is capable of punching through power armour. Yes, even lasguns. Only weapons that are AP4 or better would always penetrate.
And this is not just represented in both the rules of the tabletop and GW's Inquisitor game, but also the (rather extensive) fluff about Marine PA in Codex: Angels of Death:
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium. "

Then again, it is clear to me that the HH novels are just depicting a "different" kind of 40k than the Codex fluff, WD articles, and the rulebooks, so perhaps this sub-debate is bound to be useless and we should just agree to disagree here. After all, both interpretations of the background remain equally valid. All I want to stress is that other posters are not "wrong" for sticking to the original material rather than what some BL authors cooked up.

ThePrimordial wrote:It could have been an exalted greater daemon or some gak.

On some random ship's bridge (which of course just happened to be large enough to accomodate such a presence), by sheer coincidence?
Well then, even Greater Daemons get killed by humans - so if a Greater Daemon can kill a Primarch...

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.

the primarchs arn't mary sues.....i agree their not on superman level of powers..but their still vastly more powerful then any human in the 40k verse....

I never said they were. I was remarking on you assertion that a primarch getting killed by conventional means is a sign of bad writing.

i think it is...when Magnus can kill hundreds of wolves by just using his mind

So? I can kill a hundred rats with grenades. That doesn't mean I can't be eaten by them.

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.

the primarchs arn't mary sues.....i agree their not on superman level of powers..but their still vastly more powerful then any human in the 40k verse....

I never said they were. I was remarking on you assertion that a primarch getting killed by conventional means is a sign of bad writing.

i think it is...when Magnus can kill hundreds of wolves by just using his mind

It's kinda what happens when there are so many writers on one project.
Expect everything but power levels to be consistent.

 Psienesis wrote:
No gak a Sister couldn't beat a Primarch in hand-to-hand. Most things couldn't.

Basic humans couldn't beat a bear in hand to hand combat, that's why we invented spears.

But spears are weapons. If I am asked if a Marine is equal to a Sister, I assume it means with all gear: weapons and armour. And in the case of sorcerers or psykers, magic. I don´t see the point of comparing factions without armour and weapons in this setting.

However, just to keep track, my opinion is:
1: General warfare: Sisters are slightly worse than a marine. I am going with the 12 points vs 13 points of the tabletop. That´s about 12 points vs 500+ points of a Primarch.
2: Close fight using normal weapons: Sisters are quite worse than a marine. No chance against a Primarch. However, IF her faith is so powerful that she turns into a Living Saint and IF she is carrying a weapon as powerful as the Anathame or the Spear of Telesto... that would be a hell of a fight.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Bolter rounds dont do gak to power armor and in the HH marines take Bolter wounds like normal gun wounds. Notice how bolsters are AP:5? Yeah that's meant to represent the above.
Sanguinius held off the ground invasion force at the palace of 10's of thousands of traitor marines and countless demons for multiple days....
I forget the quote but in "Fear to Tread" chaos marines taking part in the assault describe him as untouchable, and having his every movement blurred.

Bolter rounds do not get through Power Armour easily, but they have a decent chance of causing severe damage. Even lasguns have a not that small chance of incapacitating a Marine.

Sanguinius was leading the Blood Angels Legion at the moment, and holding the most powerful defensive position ever built. And "Fear to Tread" didn´t say a single word on the matter, since it is a book about the battle in Signus Prime, seven years before the Battle for Terra.

Primarchs in the HH has never been seen fighting 10000 marines. This is quite over the top. Guilliman nearly died against ten marines in Unremembered Empire, just to mention a fight. And Fulgrim was defeated by five (really powerful) marines in Reflection Cracked. And Fulgrim was nearly killed by a sniper in Angel Exterminatus. And so on.

LightKing wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Dorn died in a boarding action and Rowboat's head is falling off his shoulders from a sword-wound.

ok? thats what we call bad fluff/bad writing or PIS (plot-indused stupidity)

Only if you think the Primarchs are unbeatable. Yet the background is full of examples of big guys being defeated by "weaker" enemies.

Dorn (until quite recently) died holding his ground against the Black Legion, during the First Black Crusade, in a boarding action near Cadia. It makes a lot of sense. He got trapped and killed by a mass of Astartes, some of them powered-up by Chaos. You said quite recently that an Astartes helped by Chaos could fight a Primarch. Dorn was trapped by thousands of them, after refusing to retreat. And if you believe this doesn´t match the "tactical sagacity" of Dorn, he was known for this kind of stubborn, suicidal resistance, just like Ferrus. And his sons inherited this trait. They have weaknesses.

This has been recently semi-retconned. Now Dorn was just missing in the boarding. If he survived, it is unclear how he survived in a space ship infested with Daemons and Chaos Marines, and what he has been doing for 8000 years in the Eye of Terror.

Fulgrim "killed" Guilliman. This doesn´t count as Primarchs getting owned by a not Primarch.

Curze was killed by a Callidus assassin. However, he didn´t fight back. It was his own insanity what defeated him.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

LightKing wrote:
as void dragon said "Do tell me what killed Rogal Dorn. Please, by all means, do so. "

Rogal Dorn died during a boarding action on the Sword of Sacrilege.

To What?
It could have been an exalted greater daemon or some gak.

The fact that we're not told suggests it wasn't anyone important, since they certainly aren't around to brag about it now.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.

the primarchs arn't mary sues.....i agree their not on superman level of powers..but their still vastly more powerful then any human in the 40k verse....

I never said they were. I was remarking on you assertion that a primarch getting killed by conventional means is a sign of bad writing.

i think it is...when Magnus can kill hundreds of wolves by just using his mind

It's kinda what happens when there are so many writers on one project.
Expect everything but power levels to be consistent.

i know.... and again you have to go by what the creators and writers intended that character to be....same with every other fictional character

 Psienesis wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

LightKing wrote:
as void dragon said "Do tell me what killed Rogal Dorn. Please, by all means, do so. "

Rogal Dorn died during a boarding action on the Sword of Sacrilege.

To What?
It could have been an exalted greater daemon or some gak.

The fact that we're not told suggests it wasn't anyone important, since they certainly aren't around to brag about it now.

Whatever it was, it did a number on him. Only thing left was a hand.

 da001 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No gak a Sister couldn't beat a Primarch in hand-to-hand. Most things couldn't.

Basic humans couldn't beat a bear in hand to hand combat, that's why we invented spears.

But spears are weapons. If I am asked if a Marine is equal to a Sister, I assume it means with all gear: weapons and armour. And in the case of sorcerers or psykers, magic. I don´t see the point of comparing factions without armour and weapons in this setting.

However, just to keep track, my opinion is:
1: General warfare: Sisters are slightly worse than a marine. I am going with the 12 points vs 13 points of the tabletop. That´s about 12 points vs 500+ points of a Primarch.
2: Close fight using normal weapons: Sisters are quite worse than a marine. No chance against a Primarch. However, IF her faith is so powerful that she turns into a Living Saint and IF she is carrying a weapon as powerful as the Anathame or the Spear of Telesto... that would be a hell of a fight.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Bolter rounds dont do gak to power armor and in the HH marines take Bolter wounds like normal gun wounds. Notice how bolsters are AP:5? Yeah that's meant to represent the above.
Sanguinius held off the ground invasion force at the palace of 10's of thousands of traitor marines and countless demons for multiple days....
I forget the quote but in "Fear to Tread" chaos marines taking part in the assault describe him as untouchable, and having his every movement blurred.

Bolter rounds do not get through Power Armour easily, but they have a decent chance of causing severe damage. Even lasguns have a not that small chance of incapacitating a Marine.

Sanguinius was leading the Blood Angels Legion at the moment, and holding the most powerful defensive position ever built. And "Fear to Tread" didn´t say a single word on the matter, since it is a book about the battle in Signus Prime, seven years before the Battle for Terra.

Primarchs in the HH has never been seen fighting 10000 marines. This is quite over the top. Guilliman nearly died against ten marines in Unremembered Empire, just to mention a fight. And Fulgrim was defeated by five (really powerful) marines in Reflection Cracked. And Fulgrim was nearly killed by a sniper in Angel Exterminatus. And so on.

LightKing wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Dorn died in a boarding action and Rowboat's head is falling off his shoulders from a sword-wound.

ok? thats what we call bad fluff/bad writing or PIS (plot-indused stupidity)

Only if you think the Primarchs are unbeatable. Yet the background is full of examples of big guys being defeated by "weaker" enemies.

Dorn (until quite recently) died holding his ground against the Black Legion, during the First Black Crusade, in a boarding action near Cadia. It makes a lot of sense. He got trapped and killed by a mass of Astartes, some of them powered-up by Chaos. You said quite recently that an Astartes helped by Chaos could fight a Primarch. Dorn was trapped by thousands of them, after refusing to retreat. And if you believe this doesn´t match the "tactical sagacity" of Dorn, he was known for this kind of stubborn, suicidal resistance, just like Ferrus. And his sons inherited this trait. They have weaknesses.

This has been recently semi-retconned. Now Dorn was just missing in the boarding. If he survived, it is unclear how he survived in a space ship infested with Daemons and Chaos Marines, and what he has been doing for 8000 years in the Eye of Terror.

Fulgrim "killed" Guilliman. This doesn´t count as Primarchs getting owned by a not Primarch.

Curze was killed by a Callidus assassin. However, he didn´t fight back. It was his own insanity what defeated him.

Magnus was able to destroy hundreds of space wolves with his mind

Sanguinius moved so fast that not even marines could keep up with him

Angron mowed through marines like the lawn

Fulgrim cut up tanks with his sword


they weren't unbeatable but much more powerful then humans


Automatically Appended Next Post:
by the way....Curze knew the M'shen was in his vincinity, HE let Her kill hum


"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication.""


Automatically Appended Next Post:
.Curze knew the M'shen was in his vincinity, HE let Her kill him


"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication.""

Arguably, her weapon was thus quite capable of finishing him off?

Here's something on the topic of differences between sources, historical revisionism and exaggerated myths:

"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportion. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Magnus didn't forge the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?
One by one, they disappeared from the annals of history, the last of their kind reputedly disappearing by M32. Whether the many extraordinary, and sometimes contradictory accounts told about the Primarchs hold any truth or are just apocryphal tales, they are preserved in the lore of each Space Marine Chapter. Others are still remembered on the Primarchs' adopted home planets. Today, the Primarchs are worshipped like gods, and pilgrimages are made along the trails they blazed across the stars, often ending at tombs or great memorials, places of ancient history that hold revered relics of their bones or wargear. Many still insist that their Primarchs will arise again, in the Imperium's direst need, for a final battle."
- 6E BRB : The Primarchs, p. 186

 Lynata wrote:
Arguably, her weapon was thus quite capable of finishing him off?

Here's something on the topic of differences between sources, historical revisionism and exaggerated myths:

"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportion. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Magnus didn't forge the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?
One by one, they disappeared from the annals of history, the last of their kind reputedly disappearing by M32. Whether the many extraordinary, and sometimes contradictory accounts told about the Primarchs hold any truth or are just apocryphal tales, they are preserved in the lore of each Space Marine Chapter. Others are still remembered on the Primarchs' adopted home planets. Today, the Primarchs are worshipped like gods, and pilgrimages are made along the trails they blazed across the stars, often ending at tombs or great memorials, places of ancient history that hold revered relics of their bones or wargear. Many still insist that their Primarchs will arise again, in the Imperium's direst need, for a final battle."
- 6E BRB : The Primarchs, p. 186

thats a cop out...you can say the same thing about sisters or marines "it could be a lie, contradictory, or legends"

so your pretty much saying all 40k fluff could either be true or a legend/false?

LightKing wrote:

i think it is...when Magnus can kill hundreds of wolves by just using his mind

I really like Magnus the Red.... BUT
1) He was defeated twice by a single marine (awful fluff, I know)
2) He was beaten by a Dreadnought (awful fluff, probably, haven´t read the book yet; fear the moment)
3) He was so emo about how he felt about his daddy that he allows the Wolves to destroy half Prospero and decimate his sons before doing something. I always thought the main weakness of the Primarchs was their own emotional problems. Most of them are described as teenagers from an emotional point of view.

Primarchs are not Superman. Superman is (IMHO) BORING AS HELL. Primarchs are fun because they have weaknesses, make mistakes, do stupid stuff, and yet they are extremely powerful.

 Psienesis wrote:

The fact that we're not told suggests it wasn't anyone important, since they certainly aren't around to brag about it now.

Curze has a vision of Dorn being dragged to darkness and death by a thousand hands. I take it as a "death by a million cuts" death.

Quite noble. And dark.

LightKing wrote:

i know.... and again you have to go by what the creators and writers intended that character to be....same with every other fictional character

Isn´t it exactly the point of this discussion?

Some people here is claiming that X or Y are awesome and invincible... while the others are giving an endless stream of quotes about Primarchs getting problems, Sisters and humans beating Marines, and so on. The setting is FULL of this stuff. A single human with a melta gun can kill a Chapter Master, a single human with sorcery can kill a Primarch, a single Ork can nearly kill the Emperor, and so on.

The wars the Emperor, to focus on the most powerful character around that is not clearly a god (?), waged to unify mankind were not one-sided battles. They were always described as brutal and dirty. They were heroic. And heroism demands drama. This is a dark setting. No one is save.

And seriously, I like it that way. Superman is boring. The Emperor wining the Wars of Unification out of being "invincible" would be just as boring.

It should be pretty obvious that this is what the writers intended, since there are so many sources saying that.

 da001 wrote:

LightKing wrote:

i think it is...when Magnus can kill hundreds of wolves by just using his mind

I really like Magnus the Red.... BUT
1) He was defeated twice by a single marine (awful fluff, I know)
2) He was beaten by a Dreadnought (awful fluff, probably, haven´t read the book yet; fear the moment)
3) He was so emo about how he felt about his daddy that he allows the Wolves to destroy half Prospero and decimate his sons before doing something. I always thought the main weakness of the Primarchs was their own emotional problems. Most of them are described as teenagers from an emotional point of view.

Primarchs are not Superman. Superman is (IMHO) BORING AS HELL. Primarchs are fun because they have weaknesses, make mistakes, do stupid stuff, and yet they are extremely powerful.

 Psienesis wrote:

The fact that we're not told suggests it wasn't anyone important, since they certainly aren't around to brag about it now.

Curze has a vision of Dorn being dragged to darkness and death by a thousand hands. I take it as a "death by a million cuts" death.

Quite noble. And dark.

LightKing wrote:

i know.... and again you have to go by what the creators and writers intended that character to be....same with every other fictional character

Isn´t it exactly the point of this discussion?

Some people here is claiming that X or Y are awesome and invincible... while the others are giving an endless stream of quotes about Primarchs getting problems, Sisters and humans beating Marines, and so on. The setting is FULL of this stuff. A single human with a melta gun can kill a Chapter Master, a single human with sorcery can kill a Primarch, a single Ork can nearly kill the Emperor, and so on.

The wars the Emperor, to focus on the most powerful character around that is not clearly a god (?), waged to unify mankind were not one-sided battles. They were always described as brutal and dirty. They were heroic. And heroism demands drama. This is a dark setting. No one is save.

And seriously, I like it that way. Superman is boring. The Emperor wining the Wars of Unification out of being "invincible" would be just as boring.

It should be pretty obvious that this is what the writers intended, since there are so many sources saying that.

how is magnus able to beat hundreds of space wolves, yet lose 1 single marine?

Curze has a vision of Dorn being dragged to darkness and death by a thousand hands. I take it as a "death by a million cuts" death.

Which implies, as I said, a bunch of peons... the exact sorts of Naval Ratings that are thrown towards an airlock and told to shoot anyone who steps through it.

LightKing wrote:thats a cop out...you can say the same thing about sisters or marines "it could be a lie, contradictory, or legends"
so your pretty much saying all 40k fluff could either be true or a legend/false?

Yes! As I've said in my very first post in this thread, the fluff is open for interpretation and it comes down to how you want to see the setting.

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about 'canonical background' will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history.
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.
Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Chief Editor Black Library, as quoted here on dakka by novel author Aaron Dembski-Bowden, one of the Horus Heresy writers

 Lynata wrote:

LightKing wrote:thats a cop out...you can say the same thing about sisters or marines "it could be a lie, contradictory, or legends"
so your pretty much saying all 40k fluff could either be true or a legend/false?

Yes! As I've said in my very first post in this thread, the fluff is open for interpretation and it comes down to how you want to see the setting.

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about 'canonical background' will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history.
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.
Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Chief Editor Black Library, as quoted here on dakka by novel author Aaron Dembski-Bowden, one of the Horus Heresy writers

oh ok, my apologies then....

even then i still think using that as an argument in these types of debates is still reaching...

 Lynata wrote:
Arguably, her weapon was thus quite capable of finishing him off?

Here's something on the topic of differences between sources, historical revisionism and exaggerated myths:

"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportion. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Magnus didn't forge the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?
One by one, they disappeared from the annals of history, the last of their kind reputedly disappearing by M32. Whether the many extraordinary, and sometimes contradictory accounts told about the Primarchs hold any truth or are just apocryphal tales, they are preserved in the lore of each Space Marine Chapter. Others are still remembered on the Primarchs' adopted home planets. Today, the Primarchs are worshipped like gods, and pilgrimages are made along the trails they blazed across the stars, often ending at tombs or great memorials, places of ancient history that hold revered relics of their bones or wargear. Many still insist that their Primarchs will arise again, in the Imperium's direst need, for a final battle."
- 6E BRB : The Primarchs, p. 186

Curze was weaker than most primarchs and he would need to be about 30% scar tissue before dying.
And yeah that crazy C'tan sword could kill anything.

LightKing wrote:

Sanguinius moved so fast that not even marines could keep up with him

Because he has wings

Fulgrim cut up tanks with his sword

I think this never happened. You are mixing him with Vulcan and his hammer I guess. And any marine can destroy a tank with a thunder hammer. And a human can destroy a tank with a power fist quite easily.

they weren't unbeatable but much more powerful then humans

Then we agree? Why you keep insisting that anyone here is saying that Primarchs are as powerful as humans?

by the way....Curze knew the M'shen was in his vincinity, HE let Her kill hum

I actually said that in the post you are technically answering. Read it. He died because his madness.

LightKing wrote:

so your pretty much saying all 40k fluff could either be true or a legend/false?

It is.
There are some declarations by people from GW that this is exactly the case.

The greatest benefit of these threads is that it identifies the people to add to my ignore list when things get heated.

The lack of any kind of canon to 40K means that these debates are ultimately useless and futile. Me, I hate most of the books that BL publishes, because they are terrible. I don't even really like the Fire and Faith series that much. Of the two HH books I've read, it's enough to tell me that I don't need to read the rest to know I'll hate them.

In these arguments, no one is right, but no one is wrong, unless one tries to quote a specific page or a specific book and gets it wrong.

 Psienesis wrote:
The greatest benefit of these threads is that it identifies the people to add to my ignore list when things get heated.

The lack of any kind of canon to 40K means that these debates are ultimately useless and futile. Me, I hate most of the books that BL publishes, because they are terrible. I don't even really like the Fire and Faith series that much. Of the two HH books I've read, it's enough to tell me that I don't need to read the rest to know I'll hate them.

In these arguments, no one is right, but no one is wrong, unless one tries to quote a specific page or a specific book and gets it wrong.

i hope im not on your ignore list

i apoloigize, i just tend to get heated in debates of any subject......

LightKing wrote:even then i still think using that as an argument in these types of debates is still reaching...

Well, what's the alternative?

One side is pointing at books that say one thing, the other side is pointing at books that say another. Who is in the right? As far as the makers of this setting are concerned: everyone.
And this realisation is the only way to actually move the discussion forward. Else we end up with the cycle of doom that da001 has referenced earlier.

ThePrimordial wrote:Curze was weaker than most primarchs and he would need to be about 30% scar tissue before dying.

According to your preferred sources?