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 grendel083 wrote:

I believe that choosing a flight mode changes their description.

You have not shown that anything changes the written text in the unit or unit type entries. Their description exists in writing, not as a fielded unit.

So I ask again, without regard for any fielded unit as the text does not refer to this as part of any requirement, are they described in their entry as moving like a jump unit?

 Abandon wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
I believe that choosing a flight mode changes their description.

You have not shown that anything changes the written text in the unit or unit type entries. Their description exists in writing, not as a fielded unit.

So I ask again, without regard for any fielded unit as the text does not refer to this as part of any requirement, are they described in their entry as moving like a jump unit?

Again no they are not.
Only after they have selected a flight mode are they ever described as moving like a Jump unit.

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Page number for "default movement" of an FMC please.

Have you tried looking at the page with the Flying Monstrous Creature rules?
When not in Swooping or Gliding, what is it's movement described as? A jump unit?

Where is the section that talks about it neither swooping or gliding ?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Where is the section that talks about it neither swooping or gliding ?

You see the section that lets you choose a flight mode? What happens before you can do that?

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Where is the section that talks about it neither swooping or gliding ?

You see the section that lets you choose a flight mode? What happens before you can do that?

Give me the page reference that has the rules on it that tell you what to do in that situation.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Where is the section that talks about it neither swooping or gliding ?

You see the section that lets you choose a flight mode? What happens before you can do that?

Give me the page reference that has the rules on it that tell you what to do in that situation.

The page with the Flying Monstrous Creature rules.

 grendel083 wrote:
The page with the Flying Monstrous Creature rules.

I'm having some trouble finding that, perhaps if you pop in a direct quote?

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The page with the Flying Monstrous Creature rules.

I'm having some trouble finding that, perhaps if you pop in a direct quote?

Really the index didn't help?
I assumed you'd read this page already? My appolgies, it's on page 93 of the digital rulebook.
If you're using the physical edition you'll need to find the page yourself I'm afraid, it's under "Unit Types".

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
I believe that choosing a flight mode changes their description.

You have not shown that anything changes the written text in the unit or unit type entries. Their description exists in writing, not as a fielded unit.

So I ask again, without regard for any fielded unit as the text does not refer to this as part of any requirement, are they described in their entry as moving like a jump unit?

Again no they are not.
Only after they have selected a flight mode are they ever described as moving like a Jump unit.

Your answer is contradictory. You state that they both are and are not described as such.

You admit that they are described as moving like a jump unit when in a fight mode (a description found in their entry) and yet deny that their entry states they move like a jump unit at all. Which is it?

Pg. 49: A flying MC that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glide mode.

If a FMC is kept as Reserves then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode

The way I read this is as thus: While in Reserves you CAN NOT choose to be swooping or Gliding, and are NOT treated as a JMC.

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The page with the Flying Monstrous Creature rules.

I'm having some trouble finding that, perhaps if you pop in a direct quote?

Really the index didn't help?
I assumed you'd read this page already? My appolgies, it's on page 93 of the digital rulebook.
If you're using the physical edition you'll need to find the page yourself I'm afraid, it's under "Unit Types".

I have both and search as I might there is nothing anywhere that talks about what an FMC when it isn't swooping or gliding.

We can only concluded that either such a situation does not exist or it is something which GW overlooked and as per the rules of the game we are to make our own conclusion, which would be a house rule.

 Abandon wrote:
Your answer is contradictory. You state that they both are and are not described as such.

You admit that they are described as moving like a jump unit when in a fight mode (a description found in their entry) and yet deny that their entry states they move like a jump unit at all. Which is it?

Contradictory?
As in it isn't described as moving like a JMC, then you later can use the rules to select a flight mode, and it is then described as moving like a JMC? Is that what you mean by contradictory? Then yes, quite right. It's what happens when a rule changes how something moves

But when going into reserve, it hasn't used the rules to pick a flight mode. It's not described as moving like a JMC. so it doesn't meet the requirements of using the JMC rules. This in turn makes it fail the requirement of a Deep strike (having the deep strike rule and being in resefve).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
I have both and search as I might there is nothing anywhere that talks about what an FMC when it isn't swooping or gliding.

We can only concluded that either such a situation does not exist or it is something which GW overlooked and as per the rules of the game we are to make our own conclusion, which would be a house rule.

You didn't notice while reading those rules that they give set times when you can choose a flight mode? The times are very specific. These times wouldn't exist if it was an oversight as you suggest.
And I assume you still haven't found anything saying they move like a jump unit when you haven't yet chosen a flight mode?

No where in the rules is that said to be the case

Uptopdownunder wrote:
No where in the rules is that said to be the case

What? That there are set times when you can choose a flight mode?
Check again, there really are.
I first quoted them on page 6 of this thread, and several times since.

Here they are agin for your convenience:

FMC - Changing Flight Mode wrote:At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding unitl the start of its next turn.

FMC Deployment wrote:A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glide mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in Reserve then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Your answer is contradictory. You state that they both are and are not described as such.

You admit that they are described as moving like a jump unit when in a fight mode (a description found in their entry) and yet deny that their entry states they move like a jump unit at all. Which is it?

Contradictory?
As in it isn't described as moving like a JMC, then you later can use the rules to select a flight mode, and it is then described as moving like a JMC? Is that what you mean by contradictory? Then yes, quite right. It's what happens when a rule changes how something moves

But when going into reserve, it hasn't used the rules to pick a flight mode. It's not described as moving like a JMC. so it doesn't meet the requirements of using the JMC rules. This in turn makes it fail the requirement of a Deep strike (having the deep strike rule and being in resefve).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
I have both and search as I might there is nothing anywhere that talks about what an FMC when it isn't swooping or gliding.

We can only concluded that either such a situation does not exist or it is something which GW overlooked and as per the rules of the game we are to make our own conclusion, which would be a house rule.

You didn't notice while reading those rules that they give set times when you can choose a flight mode? The times are very specific. These times wouldn't exist if it was an oversight as you suggest.
And I assume you still haven't found anything saying they move like a jump unit when you haven't yet chosen a flight mode?

So your answer is both. It is described as such under certain conditions but otherwise it is not. If this is the case we are in agreement on this point. Is that correct?

 Abandon wrote:
So your answer is both. It is described as such under certain conditions but otherwise it is not. If this is the case we are in agreement on this point. Is that correct?

By default it is not.
There exists a rule that can change it. That rule cannot be used at the time it goes into reserve.
Later on yes, it's movement can potentially be described as a jump unit.

When in reserve it is not described as moving as a jump unit. Are you agreed on that point?

Edit: apologies for the edits, my spelling seems to be terrible tonight

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
No where in the rules is that said to be the case

What? That there are set times when you can choose a flight mode?
Check again, there really are.
I first quoted them on page 6 of this thread, and several times since.

Here they are agin for your convenience:

FMC - Changing Flight Mode wrote:At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding unitl the start of its next turn.

FMC Deployment wrote:A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glide mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in Reserve then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

Where in those rules, which I've read thanks, do they talk about what happens when a mode has not been chosen ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
So your answer is both. It is described as such under certain conditions but otherwise it is not. If this is the case we are in agreement on this point. Is that correct?

By default it is not.

What is the default ?

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
So your answer is both. It is described as such under certain conditions but otherwise it is not. If this is the case we are in agreement on this point. Is that correct?

By default it is not.

What is the default ?

Nothing. By default it can't move. It can however chose to be swooping or gliding at the predetermined times.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Where in those rules, which I've read thanks, do they talk about what happens when a mode has not been chosen ?

Related question before I answer:
Where is the rule that talks about a Hunter Killer Missile (vehicle upgrade section, a one shot missile) before you choose to fire it?
Why is a rule needed to say there's no rule?
It talks about what happens after. So what happens before, isn't what happens after. Follow?
Before you choose a flight mode, is it described as moving like a Jump Unit?

What is the default ?

What does it say is the default? Nothing? Then it's nothing.
Does it say Jump unit is the default. No, so Jump unit cannot be the default.
Unless you can find a rule that says it is?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Nothing. By default it can't move. It can however chose to be swooping or gliding at the predetermined times.

Bingo!

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Where in those rules, which I've read thanks, do they talk about what happens when a mode has not been chosen ?

Related question before I answer:
Where is the rule that talks about a Hunter Killer Missile (vehicle upgrade section, a one shot missile) before you choose to fire it?
Why is a rule needed to say there's no rule?
It talks about what happens after. So what happens before, isn't what happens after. Follow?
Before you choose a flight mode, is it described as moving like a Jump Unit?

What is the default ?

What does it say is the default? Nothing? Then it's nothing.
Does it say Jump unit is the default. No, so Jump unit cannot be the default.
Unless you can find a rule that says it is?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Nothing. By default it can't move. It can however chose to be swooping or gliding at the predetermined times.

Bingo!

You've hit on it quite well there actually. Just because the HK isn't talked about before you fire it doesn't mean it isn't a weapon, so to the way an FMC moves is described for the times it moves, ergo it is described as moving as a JMC, that never changes.

There is no default state, I've just done a word search on the dig rulebook and the word default is not used in the rulebook at all.

There is no "nothing" state

You're trying to argue a concept that simply does not exist.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
You've hit on it quite well there actually. Just because the HK isn't talked about before you fire it doesn't mean it isn't a weapon, so to the way an FMC moves is described for the times it moves, ergo it is described as moving as a JMC, that never changes.

There is no default state, I've just done a word search on the dig rulebook and the word default is not used in the rulebook at all.

There is no "nothing" state

You're trying to argue a concept that simply does not exist.

You searched for nothing and found nothing?

The Hunter killer missile is still a weapon. The Flying Monstrous Creature is still a Flying Monstrous Creature.
Now what rule describes what that missile is up to when it hasn't been fired yet? Nothing? No rule? Then it's doing nothing.

The only way your interpretation is true, is if there's a rule to cover very possible state of everything at all times. Do you see how false a concept you're putting forward?

Now you've seen the rules stating the times you can choose a flight mode, so how is it described as moving when a flight mode hasn't be chosen (going into reserve for example)?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
So your answer is both. It is described as such under certain conditions but otherwise it is not. If this is the case we are in agreement on this point. Is that correct?

By default it is not.
There exists a rule that can change it. That rule cannot be used at the time it goes into reserve.
Later on yes, it's movement can potentially be described as a jump unit.

When in reserve it is not described as moving as a jump unit. Are you agreed on that point?

Edit: apologies for the edits, my spelling seems to be terrible tonight

Yes. Per the FMC rules they are conditionally allowed to move like a jump unit.
No, this does not include when they are in reserve.

So per their entry, are they described as moving like jump infantry? Yes and no.

No. It is only described as such when they are gliding or swooping, at all other times they are not described as 'moving like a jump unit'. I know this might seem silly to some but logically this is correct and your point is correct.

The rules for gliding and swooping allow them to move like jump units and those rules are however found in the FMC entry also. So it is also correct that they are described as moving like a jump unit. Even if that movement is conditional, it is indeed in there description.

Hence both are true. Can this be agreed upon?

 Abandon wrote:
Hence both are true. Can this be agreed upon?

Yes it can be.

Edit: it's refreshing to see a well put forward argument with rules

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Where in those rules, which I've read thanks, do they talk about what happens when a mode has not been chosen ?

Related question before I answer:
Where is the rule that talks about a Hunter Killer Missile (vehicle upgrade section, a one shot missile) before you choose to fire it?
Why is a rule needed to say there's no rule?
It talks about what happens after. So what happens before, isn't what happens after. Follow?
Before you choose a flight mode, is it described as moving like a Jump Unit?

What is the default ?

What does it say is the default? Nothing? Then it's nothing.
Does it say Jump unit is the default. No, so Jump unit cannot be the default.
Unless you can find a rule that says it is?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Nothing. By default it can't move. It can however chose to be swooping or gliding at the predetermined times.

Bingo!

You've hit on it quite well there actually. Just because the HK isn't talked about before you fire it doesn't mean it isn't a weapon, so to the way an FMC moves is described for the times it moves, ergo it is described as moving as a JMC, that never changes.

There is no default state, I've just done a word search on the dig rulebook and the word default is not used in the rulebook at all.

There is no "nothing" state

You're trying to argue a concept that simply does not exist.

Does it say anywhere that it can choose it's mode before it enters the battlefield? No. Thus it can't choose a mode. Thus it does not move like a JMC and does not have deepstrike.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Does it say anywhere that it can choose it's mode before it enters the battlefield? No. Thus it can't choose a mode. Thus it does not move like a JMC and does not have deepstrike.

How does the mode chosen affect whether or not it moves as a JMC ?

How do you know that it isn't already in a mode before it enters ?

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Does it say anywhere that it can choose it's mode before it enters the battlefield? No. Thus it can't choose a mode. Thus it does not move like a JMC and does not have deepstrike.

How does the mode chosen affect whether or not it moves as a JMC ?

How do you know that it isn't already in a mode before it enters ?

Does any rule say it is? If not then it isn't
Are you familiar with the principles of a Permissive Ruleset (with which this game was written).

Are you familiar with the meaning of "declare" as distinct to "choose" ?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Are you familiar with the meaning of "declare" as distinct to "choose" ?

Can you explain the relevance of that question please?

When allowed you must declare a Flight Modes. There are two options. Is that not choosing?
I'm not suggesting you keep the choice hidden from your opponent.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Are you familiar with the meaning of "declare" as distinct to "choose" ?

What's that got to do with anything?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Are you familiar with the meaning of "declare" as distinct to "choose" ?

What's that got to do with anything?

If you read the rule it requires you to declare the mode, you can't declare something that hasn't already been chosen.
The indication there is that the FMC is always in one mode or the other, it's just that at some times you have to make it obvious which one, those would be the times that it matters which mode it is in.

Honestly lads the choice is yours.

You can either take the rules are their face value and see that all the rules on page 49 describe the FMC as moving like a JMC OR you can introduce a series of concepts that are not represented in the rules anywhere, such as default states, types of movement only accruing to a unit at the point at which is declare how it moves and all that other stuff.

My experience in 40k has taught me that the simple path is always the correct path.