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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Inky wrote:
I'm just laughing at the fanboyism of all you guys
(note, I don't even play Blood Ravens, I just love this image)
The reasons for and against SMs and CMSs being equal/not equal have been rehashed so many times in this thread, but no one (on either side really) is listening to anything anyone else has to say.

Just like every other army-peen measuring contest really.

I largely like to stick the the idea that CSM often have less reliable weapons, or use them in a more hazardous way leading to increased deterioration often giving the advantage of tech to SM whilst CSM have a slight edge in battle experience thus making the two relatively equal.

Depends. The Warsmiths are numerous enough and have sufficient means to supply the Chaos Space Marine warbands well. Plus, if we are talking the not-negligible amount of VotlW left, then the edge in battle experience is not so slight.

Plus the warp does funny things to weapons, like weapons that have gone years without repair still firing because 'because', or your weapon mutates along with yourself and now fires pus filled bolts that inflict the plague.

Also self-loading Bolters, a la Dark Vengeance

Somehow Huron, a chapter master got, downgraded to a captain and picked up VotlW when he turned to chaos.

Admittedly, this one makes sense because more then half of his body got crushed in a horrific way, it took the skills of three of his top apothecaries to put him together and as a result ended up with a ton of bionics.

Even if it is annoying that his claw got far worse cause of it being crushed. It's still just an odd downgrade.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Somehow Huron, a chapter master got, downgraded to a captain and picked up VotlW when he turned to chaos.

Admittedly, this one makes sense because more then half of his body got crushed in a horrific way, it took the skills of three of his top apothecaries to put him together and as a result ended up with a ton of bionics.

Even if it is annoying that his claw got far worse cause of it being crushed. It's still just an odd downgrade.

Straken and Cassius have lots of bionics too, why do they get stats like S6, T6, armourbane, AP2, feel no pain etc from those?

Bionics give the SM toughness to humans, so Straken T4 is explained.

His arm was essencially replaced by a chainfist, so S3x2= S6 and Armourbane and AP 2. Why does he strike at Initiative is anyone's guess, but SM still strike first.

Finally, Straken fought on with his arm and part of his body missing (lolwut? Yeah yeah, Catachan power, GO!) I guess he didn't feel the pain.

It also gives him a 3+ armor save, even tho most of his body is no bionic *shrugs*

 Ashiraya wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Somehow Huron, a chapter master got, downgraded to a captain and picked up VotlW when he turned to chaos.

Admittedly, this one makes sense because more then half of his body got crushed in a horrific way, it took the skills of three of his top apothecaries to put him together and as a result ended up with a ton of bionics.

Even if it is annoying that his claw got far worse cause of it being crushed. It's still just an odd downgrade.

Straken and Cassius have lots of bionics too, why do they get stats like S6, T6, armourbane, AP2, feel no pain etc from those?

Strakens S6 is more akin to his clawfist arm..Which is akin to Hurons badass claw.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Bionics give the SM toughness to humans, so Straken T4 is explained.

His arm was essencially replaced by a chainfist, so S3x2= S6 and Armourbane and AP 2. Why does he strike at Initiative is anyone's guess, but SM still strike first.

Finally, Straken fought on with his arm and part of his body missing (lolwut? Yeah yeah, Catachan power, GO!) I guess he didn't feel the pain.

It also gives him a 3+ armor save, even tho most of his body is no bionic *shrugs*

Still very lulzy.

Plus, Cassius is left unexplained.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Bionics give the SM toughness to humans, so Straken T4 is explained.

His arm was essencially replaced by a chainfist, so S3x2= S6 and Armourbane and AP 2. Why does he strike at Initiative is anyone's guess, but SM still strike first.

Finally, Straken fought on with his arm and part of his body missing (lolwut? Yeah yeah, Catachan power, GO!) I guess he didn't feel the pain.

It also gives him a 3+ armor save, even tho most of his body is no bionic *shrugs*

Still very lulzy.

Plus, Cassius is left unexplained.

Brother Heraldus! I didn't even realize it was you
Cassius.... huh.... The only things I can think of are his injuries were so horrendous he suffered the same way Horus did to some extent or that it just isn't made for strength as much as endurance. Kinda jinky but rules are odd anyways in this game.

Cassius was mauled by a Carnifex, got his arse torn the hell up. He's toughness 6 through both augmentations and shear willpower. This man went a round with a Carnifex I'm pretty sure he's one of the toughest marines alive.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Bionics give the SM toughness to humans, so Straken T4 is explained.

His arm was essencially replaced by a chainfist, so S3x2= S6 and Armourbane and AP 2. Why does he strike at Initiative is anyone's guess, but SM still strike first.

Finally, Straken fought on with his arm and part of his body missing (lolwut? Yeah yeah, Catachan power, GO!) I guess he didn't feel the pain.

It also gives him a 3+ armor save, even tho most of his body is no bionic *shrugs*

Clearly, Straken is so manly that bullets lose their potency.
Whenever a bullet is about to hit Straken, it thinks "Awww man, I can never be as badass as this guy" and gets really depressed, thereby losing a part of it's momentum.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Bionics give the SM toughness to humans, so Straken T4 is explained.

His arm was essencially replaced by a chainfist, so S3x2= S6 and Armourbane and AP 2. Why does he strike at Initiative is anyone's guess, but SM still strike first.

Finally, Straken fought on with his arm and part of his body missing (lolwut? Yeah yeah, Catachan power, GO!) I guess he didn't feel the pain.

It also gives him a 3+ armor save, even tho most of his body is no bionic *shrugs*

Clearly, Straken is so manly that bullets lose their potency.
Whenever a bullet is about to hit Straken, it thinks "Awww man, I can never be as badass as this guy" and gets really depressed, thereby losing a part of it's momentum.

Exalted, just...exalted.

Somehow Huron, a chapter master got, downgraded to a captain and picked up VotlW when he turned to chaos.

If he was a SM who went through the same situation he would have 5 wounds and toughness 5.


There really is no explanation for why Draigo is S/T 5.

Apparently Kranon stopped working out too and forget to swing in combat an extra time because he got downgraded as well.

But hey, apparently there are 1000 chapter masters out there that are as hard to kill as Typhus or Abaddon.

if your book as a pic of a loyalist marine on it, CSM will be weak.

If it has a picture of a CSM on it, the normal marines will be even matches, but the CSM heroes will walk right through them


personally, in terms of epic fun ness, I liked the chaos books much better, like the word bearers omnibus, just because the fighting seems much much more believable and balanced.

in "real" 40k terms, if such a thing could exist, they are basically equal, both have mechanicum allies providing logistical support, the IOM seems to have the edge on raw #'s, but chaos has the edge on power per dude.

Id think that no matter how powerfull a SM got, chaos would make him more so,

I think the only reason reg SM's "win" in books is because they are more popular... and they are the good guys.


but personally, I am more entertained when they lose.


also, orks should be kicking both their butts.

 herpguy wrote:

Somehow Huron, a chapter master got, downgraded to a captain and picked up VotlW when he turned to chaos.

If he was a SM who went through the same situation he would have 5 wounds and toughness 5.
There really is no explanation for why Draigo is S/T 5.

Well Draigo apparently flies through the warp himself all alone, without even a ship, battling around in the eye of terror. Obviously he is a Daemon prince. Daemon princes have S/T 5, so it is consistent for him to have a similar statline.

 Exergy wrote:

 herpguy wrote:

Somehow Huron, a chapter master got, downgraded to a captain and picked up VotlW when he turned to chaos.

If he was a SM who went through the same situation he would have 5 wounds and toughness 5.
There really is no explanation for why Draigo is S/T 5.

Well Draigo apparently flies through the warp himself all alone, without even a ship, battling around in the eye of terror. Obviously he is a Daemon prince. Daemon princes have S/T 5, so it is consistent for him to have a similar statline.

Nah man, his warp dust just gives him a strength and toughness boost.

easysauce wrote:if your book as a pic of a loyalist marine on it, CSM will be weak.

If it has a picture of a CSM on it, the normal marines will be even matches, but the CSM heroes will walk right through them


personally, in terms of epic fun ness, I liked the chaos books much better, like the word bearers omnibus, just because the fighting seems much much more believable and balanced.

in "real" 40k terms, if such a thing could exist, they are basically equal, both have mechanicum allies providing logistical support, the IOM seems to have the edge on raw #'s, but chaos has the edge on power per dude.

Id think that no matter how powerfull a SM got, chaos would make him more so,

I think the only reason reg SM's "win" in books is because they are more popular... and they are the good guys.


but personally, I am more entertained when they lose.


also, orks should be kicking both their butts.

This is pretty much it right here. In all the chaos books I've read CSM aren't wading through SM, which is how it should be, but in SM books one SM usually kills 10+ CSM. There's short story where in a 1 on 1 on Iron Warriors Warsmith is actually beating the crap out of Lysander, but Lysander outmaneuvers them and gets away.

Exergy wrote:

 herpguy wrote:

Somehow Huron, a chapter master got, downgraded to a captain and picked up VotlW when he turned to chaos.

If he was a SM who went through the same situation he would have 5 wounds and toughness 5.
There really is no explanation for why Draigo is S/T 5.

Well Draigo apparently flies through the warp himself all alone, without even a ship, battling around in the eye of terror. Obviously he is a Daemon prince. Daemon princes have S/T 5, so it is consistent for him to have a similar statline.

I really wish so hard that they would make Draigo corrupted in future books, but I know that will never happen. In the daemons book it's pretty clear that Slaanesh killed him, though loyalist players will never admit it.

I really wish so hard that they would make Draigo corrupted in future books, but I know that will never happen. In the daemons book it's pretty clear that Slaanesh killed him, though loyalist players will never admit it.

Even as a Slaaneshi player I don't believe it, she didn't even kill him, he fell under his embrace, She enjoys playing with his toys after-all.

Draigo is sooooo 5th ed's problem.

Unless the new Grey Knights book has him beating Angron to death with his own arms or something.

Which wouldn't particularly surprise me as it's right up his alley but eh, it'll happen when it happens.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I really wish so hard that they would make Draigo corrupted in future books, but I know that will never happen. In the daemons book it's pretty clear that Slaanesh killed him, though loyalist players will never admit it.

Even as a Slaaneshi player I don't believe it, she didn't even kill him, he fell under his embrace, She enjoys playing with his toys after-all.

It says his "fire was extinguished." I take that as him dying. I would rather him come back as a Slaanesh champion than dead though lol. Also Slaanesh is always referred to as a "he".

 herpguy wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I really wish so hard that they would make Draigo corrupted in future books, but I know that will never happen. In the daemons book it's pretty clear that Slaanesh killed him, though loyalist players will never admit it.

Even as a Slaaneshi player I don't believe it, she didn't even kill him, he fell under his embrace, She enjoys playing with his toys after-all.

It says his "fire was extinguished." I take that as him dying. I would rather him come back as a Slaanesh champion than dead though lol. Also Slaanesh is always referred to as a "he".

The Eldar primarily call Slaanesh a "she" and 40k already has a big enough dearth of female characters, so I nearly always refer to Slaanesh as a she.

Of course my headcanon includes (non-sexualized) female space marines and genderflips half the primarchs so I'm weird.

 herpguy wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I really wish so hard that they would make Draigo corrupted in future books, but I know that will never happen. In the daemons book it's pretty clear that Slaanesh killed him, though loyalist players will never admit it.

Even as a Slaaneshi player I don't believe it, she didn't even kill him, he fell under his embrace, She enjoys playing with his toys after-all.

It says his "fire was extinguished." I take that as him dying. I would rather him come back as a Slaanesh champion than dead though lol. Also Slaanesh is always referred to as a "he".

Uh.. Did you actually read that part, or just what other people say about it. Here's the sentence word for word from the Chaos Daemon Codex.

"Even the purest flame can be extinguished by the tide. In that single moment of doubt the wanderer was lost. He knelt, bowing his head at last, and a single touch of the being's glowing scepter on each shoulder sealed his fate for eternity"

Also, one of his titles is SHE WHO THIRSTS, he can be anything she wants to be, in between, neither, everything, and something. It's how she rolls when he feels like it.

I read it a while ago when the codex first came out. Looks like you're right, seems he actually fell to Slaanesh.

Lol I know a Chaos God doesn't actually have a gender. I think its funny it's called She Who Thirsts but every time Slaanesh is referred to in the codex it's as "he".

 herpguy wrote:
I read it a while ago when the codex first came out. Looks like you're right, seems he actually fell to Slaanesh.

Lol I know a Chaos God doesn't actually have a gender. I think its funny it's called She Who Thirsts but every time Slaanesh is referred to in the codex it's as "he".

It's basically like the Daedric Princes in the Elder Scrolls universe. They have no defined gender but some of them (Mephala, Azura, Nocturnal) are more often depicted as female. Because reasons

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
I read it a while ago when the codex first came out. Looks like you're right, seems he actually fell to Slaanesh.

Lol I know a Chaos God doesn't actually have a gender. I think its funny it's called She Who Thirsts but every time Slaanesh is referred to in the codex it's as "he".

It's basically like the Daedric Princes in the Elder Scrolls universe. They have no defined gender but some of them (Mephala, Azura, Nocturnal) are more often depicted as female. Because reasons

Likely the god's personal preference.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Uh.. Did you actually read that part, or just what other people say about it. Here's the sentence word for word from the Chaos Daemon Codex.

"Even the purest flame can be extinguished by the tide. In that single moment of doubt the wanderer was lost. He knelt, bowing his head at last, and a single touch of the being's glowing scepter on each shoulder sealed his fate for eternity"

herpguy wrote: Looks like you're right, seems he actually fell to Slaanesh.

The same Codex also states that no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos. Either it's contradicting itself, the wanderer was not a Grey Knight or he was corrupted but killed.

I think it's far from "obvious" that that was Draigo. As pointed above, the same codex says no Grey Knight has ever fallen, and if it was such a big deal to the changeling, you'd think Slaanesh's story would have brought up that it was a Grey Knight. Instead, Slaanesh is mostly impressed with the fact that the Astartes made it to Slaanesh at all, with no mention of a Grey Knight finally falling, anywhere. He's always only been referred to as an Astartes and his armour is silver, which while similar to grey, is far from the same thing, and there are tons of non-Grey Knight Space Marine chapters that wear silver armour)

Draigo's still getting short stories, audio books, and novel appearances long after that Daemon codex came out anyways. If they really want to kill him off, I'm sure they'll find a more explicit means to do so but right now it seems they're rolling with him.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I think it's far from "obvious" that that was Draigo. As pointed above, the same codex says no Grey Knight has ever fallen, and if it was such a big deal to the changeling, you'd think Slaanesh's story would have brought up that it was a Grey Knight. Instead, Slaanesh is mostly impressed with the fact that the Astartes made it to Slaanesh at all, with no mention of a Grey Knight finally falling, anywhere. He's always only been referred to as an Astartes and his armour is silver, which while similar to grey, is far from the same thing, and there are tons of non-Grey Knight Space Marine chapters that wear silver armour)

Draigo's still getting short stories, audio books, and novel appearances long after that Daemon codex came out anyways. If they really want to kill him off, I'm sure they'll find a more explicit means to do so but right now it seems they're rolling with him.

It makes it a far worse piece of 40K canon if it was some random SM instead of grey superman.

 herpguy wrote:

It makes it a far worse piece of 40K canon if it was some random SM instead of grey superman.

Yet one of the big points about the Grey Knights is that none of them have ever fallen to Chaos. To change that changes the character of the army. Plus, a non-Grey Knight can be a silver superman. Part of the power of the Grey Knights comes from the fact that they're all Psykers and have training and knowledge to combat the ruinous powers. All of those things can apply to a Librarian (or even a non-detected Psyker Astartes) from a different Chapter. Either way it's deliberately left ambiguous so that you can't definitively state who it was.

 herpguy wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
I think it's far from "obvious" that that was Draigo. As pointed above, the same codex says no Grey Knight has ever fallen, and if it was such a big deal to the changeling, you'd think Slaanesh's story would have brought up that it was a Grey Knight. Instead, Slaanesh is mostly impressed with the fact that the Astartes made it to Slaanesh at all, with no mention of a Grey Knight finally falling, anywhere. He's always only been referred to as an Astartes and his armour is silver, which while similar to grey, is far from the same thing, and there are tons of non-Grey Knight Space Marine chapters that wear silver armour)

Draigo's still getting short stories, audio books, and novel appearances long after that Daemon codex came out anyways. If they really want to kill him off, I'm sure they'll find a more explicit means to do so but right now it seems they're rolling with him.

It makes it a far worse piece of 40K canon if it was some random SM instead of grey superman.

At the same time, the thing that makes him seem like a grey knight was the vanity pools, where it showed him mowing down constant ranks of Blood-letters rather then something more akin to duty as a standard astartes,

All of those things can apply to a Librarian (or even a non-detected Psyker Astartes) from a different Chapter. Either way it's deliberately left ambiguous so that you can't definitively state who it was.

He is constantly referred to as 'knight', rather then any of the more common Astarte titles especially for a librarian as he simply cut things down simply, he had a 'rune-etched' sword. Of which nemesis force swords in the GK codex are mentioned to be. His will is noted to be 'silvered Adamantium'. The constant theme of silvered is far beyond what it should be for a normal Adeptas Astartes

The blade is tempered iron, flecked with shards of silver and inset with ancient runes of daemon-slaying

It is said that no GK has fallen to chaos...But how many have actually gotten to Slaanesh himself? How many have heard back from those who have managed to get close enough?

Remember that 40k 'Canon' is often told through the scrolls of Imperial Scholars, and there's bias when it comes to humanities thoughts on their warriors. 40k canon is flexible, things change and is often told through reports, not simply that everything is 100% truth.

Plus I'd love to see the GK spirit broken, as they'd find that something can still break them, as they see a GK dedicated to Slaanesh fighting against their ranks.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

He is constantly referred to as 'knight', rather then any of the more common Astarte titles especially for a librarian as he simply cut things down simply, he had a 'rune-etched' sword. Of which nemesis force swords in the GK codex are mentioned to be. His will is noted to be 'silvered Adamantium'. The constant theme of silvered is far beyond what it should be for a normal Adeptas Astartes

Knights are archetypal slayers of evil. The Daemons that he cut down weren't even fighting him; they were trying to tempt him. I would imagine that many force swords would have runes. That the runes actually held power is not stated. It could merely have been decoration or writing. Silver is traditionally effective against evil and is also symbolic for purity. It all emphasises the willpower and strength of purpose of the wanderer. He presumably viewed himself as a hero hence why he could not strike down the "innocence" of Slaanesh.

To be honest, as it's written it doesn't actually seem that tempting without large amounts of supernatural influence (which is hard to get across).

It is said that no GK has fallen to chaos...But how many have actually gotten to Slaanesh himself? How many have heard back from those who have managed to get close enough?

Remember that 40k 'Canon' is often told through the scrolls of Imperial Scholars, and there's bias when it comes to humanities thoughts on their warriors. 40k canon is flexible, things change and is often told through reports, not simply that everything is 100% truth.

That doesn't really matter. It's stated in the very Codex we're discussing that the Grey Knights are incorruptible.

And a lot of the time it is not. Imperials would not write information on Daemons (or Grey Knights for that matter) in such way. Unless it is completely up to the reader to decide what is Imperial perspective and what isn't I don't think it really applies here. 40K has no real canon so fans can interpret (or even ignore) things as they wish. That doesn't change what is said about the Grey Knights and the wanderer. The fact is it's deliberately left ambiguous as to what Chapter they're from. From that passage alone one cannot state that he was a Grey Knight. Other passages in the Codex state that no Grey Knight has yet fallen to Chaos.

That doesn't really matter. It's stated in the very Codex we're discussing that the Grey Knights are incorruptible.

However at the same time, we have Matt Wards purifiers from GK who are.

"Whose souls are considered to be utterly incorruptible and resistant to the temptations of the warp"

Which implies that there's a degree of incorruptibility, not to mention the Bloodtide...

Turning their blades upon the surviving Battle-Sisters, the Grey Knights sated their blades in their innocent blood, effectively turning their weapons and armour into talismans of purity. The Grey Knights were then shielded from spiritual infection by the goreflood of the Bloodtide and were able to make their way into the heart of the cursed basilica

Which implies that the GK aren't exactly as pure anymore.

..And then we have Kelly's constant rehashing of old fluff, even when it directly contradicts with current "canon"

So to put it very simply, this is one of those cases of fluff clash.

Thus, it can go either way honestly.