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What does matter is player and GM interactions. No body should be uncomfortable with what is happening in the game.

 Peregrine wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
NY" goes, there is literally no difference between role playing a dwarf who likes ale and whores, who pays for said whores, and a dark elf character who just goes around raping people because thats what DE's do....

...

WTF? Are you seriously claiming that two consenting adults agreeing to exchange sex for money and raping people just for fun are equivalent? If you honestly believe this then you have some serious problems.

you seem to be ok with "pay a silver to have sex with a wench" even though that is rape

No, it really isn't. Perhaps you should go find a dictionary and look at the definition of rape before you say absurd and offensive things like this?

tone down the personal attacks, and actually read the post with a dash of good faith before being unkind about it please.

According to the same people who get bent out of shape over imaginary rape, ANY COERCION used to get sex is rape, with a capital R. money is coercion, violence is another method, threatening to tell bad stories to people is another, and on and on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
you seem to be ok with "pay a silver to have sex with a wench" even though that is rape ... but not with other forms of imaginary rape.

you seem to be drawing a line between rape, and "RAPE-RAPE" when such a line doesnt exist...

Show me where I said any of that.

It's ok, I'll wait for you to not find me saying that anywhere.

I made the comparison earlier, maybe you missed it.

so for the record,

you are ok with my imaginary character, going into an imaginary brothel, paying imaginary coin for imaginary sex? yes/no?

because paying for sex, is RAPE, any form of coercion for sex is rape according to the same crowd who sees mysogeny in DND and basically everything else.

its a very common claim that any form of sex is also rape, let alone coerced sex.

again, not saying you PERSONALLY made these claims, but they are made often enough by the same people saying DND rape is "rape" that if you draw the line at imaginary violent rape, why not at imaginary paid for rape?


Kinsella
Prostitution isn’t sex, it’s bought rape http://www.torontosun.com/2014/01/10/prostitution-isnt-sex-its-bought-rape

just one example of many where people equal prostitution to rape.

 easysauce wrote:
According to the same people who get bent out of shape over imaginary rape, ANY COERCION used to get sex is rape, with a capital R. money is coercion, violence is another method, threatening to tell bad stories to people is another, and on and on.

Except that isn't true. SOME people argue that offering money for sex is coercion, but even those people don't consider it as bad as raping someone by force. And there are a lot of people who object to fictional rape but have no problem with consenting adults agreeing to exchange sex for money.

So DnD is or is not mysogynistic. How do your argue rape as a story element for players is not misogynistic?

 Blood Hawk wrote:
So if I had a story where people went to a prison, I can have murderers, thieves, muggers, etc. in that prison but no rapists?

I'm curious, do any tabletop prison RPGs exist? That actually sounds like an interesting concept

 Peregrine wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
According to the same people who get bent out of shape over imaginary rape, ANY COERCION used to get sex is rape, with a capital R. money is coercion, violence is another method, threatening to tell bad stories to people is another, and on and on.

Except that isn't true. SOME people argue that offering money for sex is coercion, but even those people don't consider it as bad as raping someone by force. And there are a lot of people who object to fictional rape but have no problem with consenting adults agreeing to exchange sex for money.

It is true,

SOME people think that coerced rape isnt actual rape or as bad as violent rape... great, youve established that we all have an opinion on the subject.

some people think that a woman forced to have sex, weather through violence, desparation, ect is all rape.

you have the opinion that forcing someone to have sex with you or not have money for food isnt rape, and you are entitled to that opinion.

but to claim your opinion is correct is just silly... to claim it in the rude and insulting way you have done so is... well rude and insulting, how about being polite instead while we discuss imaginary stuff please?

It could be male on male rape, which actually used to be quite common in the old times. Male on male rape is not sexual, but the idea of domination over your enemy. That's actuly were the "not lie with a man as you would with a women" thing came from.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:
So if I had a story where people went to a prison, I can have murderers, thieves, muggers, etc. in that prison but no rapists?

I'm curious, do any tabletop prison RPGs exist? That actually sounds like an interesting concept

I can't think of any table top games, but there is the escapist.

 Frazzled wrote:
So DnD is or is not mysogynistic. How do your argue rape as a story element for players is not misogynistic?

Just because an author has rape occur in his stories doesn't make him a misogynist. Same for d&d. This is coming uncomfortably close to censorship.

Sining wrote:
Just because an author has rape occur in his stories doesn't make him a misogynist. Same for d&d. This is coming uncomfortably close to censorship.

And you still don't understand what censorship is. Criticizing someone's decisions is not censorship, even if that criticism uses words that you don't like.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:
So if I had a story where people went to a prison, I can have murderers, thieves, muggers, etc. in that prison but no rapists?

I'm curious, do any tabletop prison RPGs exist? That actually sounds like an interesting concept

I don't know honestly. I have seen many games start with the PCs in a prison, but it is usually not a "prison", as in a place to hold criminals, but the PCs where captured by the bad guys and have to escape. The PCs aren't criminals or anything in those cases.

Sining wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So DnD is or is not mysogynistic. How do your argue rape as a story element for players is not misogynistic?

Just because an author has rape occur in his stories doesn't make him a misogynist. Same for d&d. This is coming uncomfortably close to censorship.

Answer the question. if rape is a part of these "advantures" how do you argue its not misgynistic. Are men raped in these fantasies or just women? be honest.

nomotog wrote:

Then do that. You don't have to include rape and you know there are reasons you shouldn't include it.

I haven't been DM'ing for ohsomany years. I'm just trying to see why rape as a (cheap) story device is supposed to be any different than any of the others mentioned above.

nomotog wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Rape is a legit story device to make the evil guy look more evil.

I find that a rather trite reason to throw rape into a story.

I don't see how this is any worse or cheaper than the villain executing someone on a balcony in plain sight.

Then do that. You don't have to include rape and you know there are reasons you shouldn't include it.

There are reasons why we shouldn't include violence either, but then that would totally bugger up D&D.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


There are reasons why we shouldn't include violence either, but then that would totally bugger up D&D.

Crumpets & Tea, the astonishing adventure of tea parties in your friendly neighborhood. Roll 12+ to properly pour the hot tea in the cup. Can you make it without spilling too much? Does it taste well? Did you remember to put sugar in it!? ADVENTUUUUURE!

 Sigvatr wrote:

Crumpets & Tea, the astonishing adventure of tea parties in your friendly neighborhood. Roll 12+ to properly pour the hot tea in the cup. Can you make it without spilling too much? Does it taste well? Did you remember to put sugar in it!? ADVENTUUUUURE!

Survival DC 15 to determine if it's teatime yet, bitches!

Just gonna drop this here;

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil

This in itself is a problem. In part rape in fiction becomes troublesome because of how poorly understood rape often is and how one sidedly its often applied. Then there's the issue that we often put rape on a pedestal as a super special kind of evil.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


There are reasons why we shouldn't include violence either, but then that would totally bugger up D&D.

Crumpets & Tea, the astonishing adventure of tea parties in your friendly neighborhood. Roll 12+ to properly pour the hot tea in the cup. Can you make it without spilling too much? Does it taste well? Did you remember to put sugar in it!? ADVENTUUUUURE!

I have actually ran games that didn't involve violence. I know D&D isn't really built for it, but D&D is nothing if not mutable. (% ed even more so. Actually if someone was keen, I always wanted to draw up some rules for like a tea and crumpets D&D game.) Thought the thing is would removing rape bugger up your average D&D game in the same way that removing violence would. I don't think it so. You can easily remove rape from D&D without causing many problems. (Actually they even did just that. In 4ed they went through and removed a lot of the rape monsters or changed them into non rape monsters.)

 Frazzled wrote:

Sining wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So DnD is or is not mysogynistic. How do your argue rape as a story element for players is not misogynistic?

Just because an author has rape occur in his stories doesn't make him a misogynist. Same for d&d. This is coming uncomfortably close to censorship.

Answer the question. if rape is a part of these "advantures" how do you argue its not misgynistic. Are men raped in these fantasies or just women? be honest.

In the RPGs I've run, I've had rape occur as background fluff; such as a criminal syndicate kidnapping a NPC cops wife and then returning her to him pregnant. This was explained to PCs who were searching up information on the syndicate and the cop was one of the leads. If that's misogynistic then I'm probably a misandrist as well since worse torture occurs to my male npcs

nomotog wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


There are reasons why we shouldn't include violence either, but then that would totally bugger up D&D.

Crumpets & Tea, the astonishing adventure of tea parties in your friendly neighborhood. Roll 12+ to properly pour the hot tea in the cup. Can you make it without spilling too much? Does it taste well? Did you remember to put sugar in it!? ADVENTUUUUURE!

I have actually ran games that didn't involve violence. I know D&D isn't really built for it, but D&D is nothing if not mutable. (% ed even more so. Actually if someone was keen, I always wanted to draw up some rules for like a tea and crumpets D&D game.) Thought the thing is would removing rape bugger up your average D&D game in the same way that removing violence would. I don't think it so. You can easily remove rape from D&D without causing many problems. (Actually they even did just that. In 4ed they went through and removed a lot of the rape monsters or changed them into non rape monsters.)

Not quite the point.

 Sigvatr wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


There are reasons why we shouldn't include violence either, but then that would totally bugger up D&D.

Crumpets & Tea, the astonishing adventure of tea parties in your friendly neighborhood. Roll 12+ to properly pour the hot tea in the cup. Can you make it without spilling too much? Does it taste well? Did you remember to put sugar in it!? ADVENTUUUUURE!

I have actually ran games that didn't involve violence. I know D&D isn't really built for it, but D&D is nothing if not mutable. (% ed even more so. Actually if someone was keen, I always wanted to draw up some rules for like a tea and crumpets D&D game.) Thought the thing is would removing rape bugger up your average D&D game in the same way that removing violence would. I don't think it so. You can easily remove rape from D&D without causing many problems. (Actually they even did just that. In 4ed they went through and removed a lot of the rape monsters or changed them into non rape monsters.)

Not quite the point.

What was the point?

Whether or not rape occurring in stories is misogynistic probably

Sining wrote:
Whether or not rape occurring in stories is misogynistic probably

I don't think I or anyone else could answer that definitely.

Yes but we can argue about it indefinitely. Which this being the internet will probably happen

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

Yep, it is wrong. Rape is more wrong than murder, far more wrong. Far more damaging to the total fabric of society as well.

Can you prove any of those statements?

 Manchu wrote:
Do people think these two things are really equally acceptable in a RPG or should be?

(a) my character swings his sword at the orc

(b) my character forces the orc to do sex things with him

Really?

Yep, absolutely, depending on the characters being played and the setting.

 Manchu wrote:
You just made the "killing is worse than rape" argument.

So do you think a game about raping orcs is better than a game about killing them?

Morally? Both are equally as bad given the context (Or lack of) you've provided.

A game about raping orcs doesn't sound all that fun though. Neither does a game that can be simply boiled down to "killing orcs" either, actually.

You're trying to boil a complex issue down to a simple question. Stop it.

 LordofHats wrote:

Part of why rape is maybe a little more egregious though is that it's so often portrayed so poorly in fiction. Rapists are usually just that. Rapists. Imagine all the great serial killers of fiction and how they get complex and often charming characterizations (to the point that people like the bad guy more than the hero). There's a motivation there. A psychology behind their actions.

But then you'd be humanizing a rapist. That's a heavy risk for a writer who doesn't want to be labeled a supporter of rape culture.

 Frazzled wrote:
How do your argue rape as a story element for players is not misogynistic?

You can make the victim male, for one.

Not every rape victim is a woman. I once played as a half orc fighter who had been raped in his backstory, and that was going to become relevant to his character arc. Was going to. He got decapitated by some donkey-caves getting lucky crits with scimitars early in the adventure. Real shame.

Anyway, the very notion that anyone who plays a character who is willing to rape an NPC is a sick feth playing out a rape fantasy is laughably silly.

I didn't read this entire thread - 'cause I ain't got time for that - but I can confirm there's a lot of misogyny and general issues that can happen. As a (early transition) transgender person who identifies as female, until I moved to a larger and accepting city... I avoided most non-female dominated gaming groups and often wasn't invited back otherwise. This included having to search out the groups that sometimes just didn't exist across all mediums and basically created a gaming drought for me for quite a while.

Honestly, it felt like they were surprised I'd take offense, like I wasn't a real woman to them or whatever, but, yes. I'd say I went through a good two year period of living in places where I felt ostracized for wanting to play without being made uncomfortable.

Smireland wrote:
I didn't read this entire thread - 'cause I ain't got time for that - but I can confirm there's a lot of misogyny and general issues that can happen. As a (early transition) transgender person who identifies as female, until I moved to a larger and accepting city... I avoided most non-female dominated gaming groups and often wasn't invited back otherwise. This included having to search out the groups that sometimes just didn't exist across all mediums and basically created a gaming drought for me for quite a while.

Honestly, it felt like they were surprised I'd take offense, like I wasn't a real woman to them or whatever, but, yes. I'd say I went through a good two year period of living in places where I felt ostracized for wanting to play without being made uncomfortable.

That's sad. I think people shouldn't be discriminated against cause except unless they have really crappy personalities

Smireland wrote:
I didn't read this entire thread - 'cause I ain't got time for that - but I can confirm there's a lot of misogyny and general issues that can happen. As a (early transition) transgender person who identifies as female, until I moved to a larger and accepting city... I avoided most non-female dominated gaming groups and often wasn't invited back otherwise. This included having to search out the groups that sometimes just didn't exist across all mediums and basically created a gaming drought for me for quite a while.

Honestly, it felt like they were surprised I'd take offense, like I wasn't a real woman to them or whatever, but, yes. I'd say I went through a good two year period of living in places where I felt ostracized for wanting to play without being made uncomfortable.

I'm a little confused.

Were you discriminated against because you're trans, or because you're a woman? Both are valid concerns to have about gaming communities (If not necessarily reflective of the games themselves), but I'm not sure which applies here.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Do people think these two things are really equally acceptable in a RPG or should be?

(a) my character swings his sword at the orc

(b) my character forces the orc to do sex things with him

Really?

Yep, absolutely

Finally a real answer -- even the word "absolutely" ... oh no wait, more weasel words:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
depending on the characters being played and the setting.

Now, let me see, it is absolutely the case ... depending ...

 Void__Dragon wrote:
You're trying to boil a complex issue down to a simple question. Stop it.

Now now, we've already been over this kind of objection. If my question is a "false dichotomy" or "boiling a complex issue down," that would be because the point that provoked it ("murder is worse") is inadequate.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


But then you'd be humanizing a rapist. That's a heavy risk for a writer who doesn't want to be labeled a supporter of rape culture.

Not what I'm really getting at. I'm attempting to point out the one dimensional nature of rape compared to how multidimensional we are about murder, theft, assault etc. in the sense of how we often portray rape. Rape is often thrown out as a token evil deed. It's rarely treated as a complex act (even though in reality it's often very complex), and is simply reduced to a tired old plot device.

For something as serious as rape is, we rarely treat it as seriously as we pretend to. I think that the one dimensional nature of the depiction of rape in a lot of fiction is a major contributor to the problem (along with how insular we are about sex to start with).