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To run a formation do all of the units need to be deployed together? Or could you keep some in reserve to deep strike?

 vostroyan second born wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Red_Drake wrote:
It's super frustrating that they updated the demons book with new relics powers and traits, but didn't address the outdated daemon of tzeentch rule

We got exactly the same treatment that Guard got in the Tau campaign books.

This is nothing more than a cheap Band-Aid, likely so that GW can just ignore us entirely until 8th ed or whatever Age of Sicarius styled BS they decide to pull.

You can not compare the demons update to the am update. The cadia detachment is 100% overpriced and 90% useless. Demons get some nice things.

Guard got some nice formations. Our Daemoncurion is unplayable for the most part, (Slaanesh, maaaaybe Nurgle is doable), outside of 2k+ points games.

The relics are 1 per model, so there's no stacking for any really amazing synergies.

Our new psychic lores are still hamstrung by the basic rules forbidding us to take more than half our powers from the God-specific tables. This mean that Slaany & Nurgle Heralds only have a 16% chance at landing one of the better powers now! (Tzeentch gets a mediocre around 40%'ish chance, due to possible re-rolls for a duplicate power)

This release is on par for a Chaos release in general; a bitter taste, and a feeling of complete disappointment as one realises that Loyalists get everything we could possibly want, while we get stuck with 'lolz!sacred numbers!lolz'.

What does the Soul Grinder formation do?

So, am I seeing this correctly?
It looks like the only way to get the new Daemon rules is to either buy the $74 Wulfen codex or the $155 limited ed. Daemon Codex with the extra rules included?

God fething damn GW, that seems outrageous even for you.

Wait for the cheap digital supplement to come out, like Black Library did with the Cadian Supplement

Experiment 626 wrote:

 vostroyan second born wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Red_Drake wrote:
It's super frustrating that they updated the demons book with new relics powers and traits, but didn't address the outdated daemon of tzeentch rule

We got exactly the same treatment that Guard got in the Tau campaign books.

This is nothing more than a cheap Band-Aid, likely so that GW can just ignore us entirely until 8th ed or whatever Age of Sicarius styled BS they decide to pull.

You can not compare the demons update to the am update. The cadia detachment is 100% overpriced and 90% useless. Demons get some nice things.

Guard got some nice formations. Our Daemoncurion is unplayable for the most part, (Slaanesh, maaaaybe Nurgle is doable), outside of 2k+ points games.

The relics are 1 per model, so there's no stacking for any really amazing synergies.

Our new psychic lores are still hamstrung by the basic rules forbidding us to take more than half our powers from the God-specific tables. This mean that Slaany & Nurgle Heralds only have a 16% chance at landing one of the better powers now! (Tzeentch gets a mediocre around 40%'ish chance, due to possible re-rolls for a duplicate power)

This release is on par for a Chaos release in general; a bitter taste, and a feeling of complete disappointment as one realises that Loyalists get everything we could possibly want, while we get stuck with 'lolz!sacred numbers!lolz'.

chaos demons get Demonic Corruption "Objetive tokens count always as controlled, if at least they were controlled by a Demon unit before. This Works even if the unit is destroyed." and AM loses objective securde at infantry except infantry veterans in the vet formation.

Demonic Corruption alone is better than the whole cadia supplement ...

To all the people complaining that the Daemon Incurion is too expensive you do realize that the Forgehost is an Auxillary formation too. Based on its picture its going to be at least 3 Soul Grinders who are at their cheapest (no upgrades and Daemon Khorne) is only 405 points. If you go cheap on the core formation you can easily fit the Incurion below 1000 pts

 vostroyan second born wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Red_Drake wrote:
It's super frustrating that they updated the demons book with new relics powers and traits, but didn't address the outdated daemon of tzeentch rule

We got exactly the same treatment that Guard got in the Tau campaign books.

This is nothing more than a cheap Band-Aid, likely so that GW can just ignore us entirely until 8th ed or whatever Age of Sicarius styled BS they decide to pull.

You can not compare the demons update to the am update. The cadia detachment is 100% overpriced and 90% useless. Demons get some nice things.

The cadia detachment is balls, but the actual formations are good to excellent, and represent far better ways to run most of the units Guard likes.

Just the fact that you can now run as much artillery, Russes, etc that you want without running out of HS slots is a boon in and of itself.

And so many units that simply had no reason ever to be run are now good.. Psykers, Valkyries, Basilisks, Manticores, Vanquisher Russes, Sentinels and Hellhounds have been hitting the table for the first time since the codex hit.

Ok so to get things straight. Warpflame host, from the point I read it, if units benefits from both the heralds loci and its own loci they can get conjuration twice. It says another. Not a different. It says "if such a unit is also affected by another locus,they receive both benefits." Or am I just greedy..?

 matphat wrote:
So, am I seeing this correctly?
It looks like the only way to get the new Daemon rules is to either buy the $74 Wulfen codex or the $155 limited ed. Daemon Codex with the extra rules included?

God fething damn GW, that seems outrageous even for you.

I'm sure that's just for right now to help move product. They'll come out with a card pack that has the new objectives and psychic powers. But as for the campaign rules, the formations, and the warlord traits? Yeah, I'd bet money that you're right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Holy gak... the Grimoire Collection sold out in 4 and a half hours...

Glad I got one.

 avedominusnox wrote:
Ok so to get things straight. Warpflame host, from the point I read it, if units benefits from both the heralds loci and its own loci they can get conjuration twice. It says another. Not a different. It says "if such a unit is also affected by another locus,they receive both benefits." Or am I just greedy..?

I'm pretty sure "another locus" keep it from stacking duplicates

Ultimately I would still like to wait to have all the rules in my hands but man....I swear someone at gw hates Tzeentch. I've been a Tzeentch/thousand sons fan since 2nd ed. And in the last 10 years I've not seen such blandness. When I heard about new psychic powers and formations I was stoked. But here we go again. "What should we do with Tzeentch? Isn't he the God of fire or something? Sure" product: Tzeentch lore =lol fire and feel no pain. What happens to manipulation/deceit? Such lazy sloppy rules.

 avedominusnox wrote:
Ok so to get things straight. Warpflame host, from the point I read it, if units benefits from both the heralds loci and its own loci they can get conjuration twice. It says another. Not a different. It says "if such a unit is also affected by another locus,they receive both benefits." Or am I just greedy..?

I think they mean if you have more than one formation within 12" of each other. Since heralds you purchase in a CAD for instance can't join the formations. Man did we get screwed on these formation. Not only did we not get an additional bonus like say double demi companies. We didn't get any mini formations that count toward the Decurion requirements. Well chaos I guess....and yet so how SW players are complaining. LOL. Irony!

I also love how Khorne has like a bajillion formations and data sheets while the other gods get nothing! Remember those warhammer world exclusives? Yes, I know GW trying to "fix" Khorne which sold poorly because the botched the codex rules.

Who says you can't join?

 vostroyan second born wrote:

chaos demons get Demonic Corruption "Objetive tokens count always as controlled, if at least they were controlled by a Demon unit before. This Works even if the unit is destroyed." and AM loses objective securde at infantry except infantry veterans in the vet formation.

Demonic Corruption alone is better than the whole cadia supplement ...

You can re-take objectives from Daemons... the point of Daemonic Corruption is that Daemons don't have to baby sit an objective for the entire game, which is really only of amazing to Khorne & Slaanesh since all they want to do is rush forwards and beat face.
Tzeentch gains the least from it, (as Horrors are still at their best when keeping the hell away from the enemy and just blasting them), while Nurgle still doesn't mind squatters in cover. (Nurglings especially!)

And really, the 'cheapest' Daemoncurion we can run is Slaanesh, which is still a minimum of 1070pts, which only gets you;
Slaaherald w/Lv2 + Exalted Locus
6x 10 Daemonettes
3 Khornate Grinders (the worst kind & no shooting attacks!)

That's complete and utter crap.

The Khorne & Tzeentch ones are literally only playable in 2k+ games... Hell, even going super cheap with Tzeentch, it's still 1073pts minimum for;
Tzherald w/Lv3 + Exalted Locus
2x 11 Horrors ('cause you absolutely need WC's with Tzeentch)
7x Exalted Flamers
3 Khornate Grinders with no shooting.


Our Daemonic Incursion detachment is bar far the outright worst of any of the 7.5 stuff... While I can sympathise with Guard who got absolutely miserable infantry based formations, the rest of the stuff is decent to solid.

The only things of worth thus far for Daemons are some of the relics, and (potentially) the new Warlord traits.

zendral wrote:
Ultimately I would still like to wait to have all the rules in my hands but man....I swear someone at gw hates Tzeentch. I've been a Tzeentch/thousand sons fan since 2nd ed. And in the last 10 years I've not seen such blandness. When I heard about new psychic powers and formations I was stoked. But here we go again. "What should we do with Tzeentch? Isn't he the God of fire or something? Sure" product: Tzeentch lore =lol fire and feel no pain. What happens to manipulation/deceit? Such lazy sloppy rules.

I here you. Like how Slaanesh has all these powers that force LD tests. But no way to lower enemy LD values. I mean you'd think there would be a psyhic power or artifact that reduces LD, somewhere. I mean I have these fragile assault units with high initiative that they never get to use. Even my I10 KOS still mostly strikes at I1. But nope no always strike at initiative powers or artifacts. No Hit & run rules either. Nope all that Slaaneshi goodness that we had in the old codex the Eldar got + god like shooting. Totes fair man.

I expected to be disappointed and GW came through for Chaos like always.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 avedominusnox wrote:
Who says you can't join?

I thought if an independent character joined the formation, they didn't benefit from the formation rules. Is that not so?

Slaanesh is my second army, so very much agreed. I've always felt that at least it would be cool if the enemy had to take a leadership to shoot/charge a daemon of slaanesh. Trying to avoid the captivating allure of his/her power.

 Sersi wrote:
I hear you. Like how Slaanesh has all these powers that force LD tests. But no way to lower enemy LD values. I mean you'd think there would be a psyhic power or artifact that reduces LD, somewhere.

There is an artifact. The Doomstone. It just needs them to fail a Leadership test in order to reduce their Leadership.

 Sersi wrote:

zendral wrote:
Ultimately I would still like to wait to have all the rules in my hands but man....I swear someone at gw hates Tzeentch. I've been a Tzeentch/thousand sons fan since 2nd ed. And in the last 10 years I've not seen such blandness. When I heard about new psychic powers and formations I was stoked. But here we go again. "What should we do with Tzeentch? Isn't he the God of fire or something? Sure" product: Tzeentch lore =lol fire and feel no pain. What happens to manipulation/deceit? Such lazy sloppy rules.

I here you. Like how Slaanesh has all these powers that force LD tests. But no way to lower enemy LD values. I mean you'd think there would be a psyhic power or artifact that reduces LD, somewhere. I mean I have these fragile assault units with high initiative that they never get to use. Even my I10 KOS still mostly strikes at I1. But nope no always strike at initiative powers or artifacts. No Hit & run rules either. Nope all that Slaaneshi goodness that we had in the old codex the Eldar got + god like shooting. Totes fair man.

I expected to be disappointed and GW came through for Chaos like always.

I hear you mate... What did Tzeentch get in the end?

A couple decent relics
No fix to our half worthless 'Daemon of...' rule
No formation to boost our casting ability, while every loyalist Marine seems to be getting super easy WC harnessing abilities.
A formation that potentially makes Screamers worse!
A psychic lore focused on Witchfires which 7th won't allow us to spam, despite Witchfires being our main source of ranged damage output.

So in the end, the servents of the God of ****ing Magic are still among the game's worst actual psykers, because... "screw Chaos" apparently.

At least we're really used to bitter disappointment nowadays. Now 10 years and counting as being the random joke army of 40k.

 Sersi wrote:
I thought if an independent character joined the formation, they didn't benefit from the formation rules. Is that not so?

Depends on the formation rule's wording because IC become apart of a unit for all rules purposes (and nothing prohibits ICs from join a unit from a formation)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 vostroyan second born wrote:

chaos demons get Demonic Corruption "Objetive tokens count always as controlled, if at least they were controlled by a Demon unit before. This Works even if the unit is destroyed." and AM loses objective securde at infantry except infantry veterans in the vet formation.

Demonic Corruption alone is better than the whole cadia supplement ...

You can re-take objectives from Daemons... the point of Daemonic Corruption is that Daemons don't have to baby sit an objective for the entire game, which is really only of amazing to Khorne & Slaanesh since all they want to do is rush forwards and beat face.
Tzeentch gains the least from it, (as Horrors are still at their best when keeping the hell away from the enemy and just blasting them), while Nurgle still doesn't mind squatters in cover. (Nurglings especially!)

And really, the 'cheapest' Daemoncurion we can run is Slaanesh, which is still a minimum of 1070pts, which only gets you;
Slaaherald w/Lv2 + Exalted Locus
6x 10 Daemonettes
3 Khornate Grinders (the worst kind & no shooting attacks!)

That's complete and utter crap.

The Khorne & Tzeentch ones are literally only playable in 2k+ games... Hell, even going super cheap with Tzeentch, it's still 1073pts minimum for;
Tzherald w/Lv3 + Exalted Locus
2x 11 Horrors ('cause you absolutely need WC's with Tzeentch)
7x Exalted Flamers
3 Khornate Grinders with no shooting.


Our Daemonic Incursion detachment is bar far the outright worst of any of the 7.5 stuff... While I can sympathise with Guard who got absolutely miserable infantry based formations, the rest of the stuff is decent to solid.

The only things of worth thus far for Daemons are some of the relics, and (potentially) the new Warlord traits.

you... do realize those are actually cheaper than the un-upgraded IG-curion, yeah? and that you get better bonuses for doing it?

EDIT: Also, Where is the rule statong you can only generate up to half of your powers? As far as I know that's just a CSM thing, though I may be wrong.

Its on the page with all the psychic disciplines. The CSM only thing is having to generate at least 1 power from their god's discipline

 CrownAxe wrote:
Its on the page with all the psychic disciplines. The CSM only thing is having to generate at least 1 power from their god's discipline

Ah, that'd do it. Well, I hope they fix that atleast, but it's still not the worst thing in the world. All of the gods got a buff, and are still leagues ahead of their Traitor Astartes brethren, the Dark Eldar and the Orks.

 Swampmist wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Its on the page with all the psychic disciplines. The CSM only thing is having to generate at least 1 power from their god's discipline

Ah, that'd do it. Well, I hope they fix that atleast, but it's still not the worst thing in the world. All of the gods got a buff, and are still leagues ahead of their Traitor Astartes brethren, the Dark Eldar and the Orks.

No, they didn't fix that. The Grimoire re-print is just a 100% carbon copy of the codex with the campaign stuff added in. Unlike Wolves, we're not getting a codex re-print. So all of our bad rules are still bad.

Saying we're still better than Chaos Marines is basically akin to saying to that Maple Leafs are still more skilled than a peewee house league team. Being able to club an armless, blind, crippled 6 year old isn't anything to gloat about!

The bonuses from a decurion shouldn't be the focus of what is better off than someone else decurion. It's the parts that make it up like the units and formations, and in the case mentioned above, the new guard formations are fantastic compared to the daemon ones. In which case the daemon decurion pales in comparison with taking whole decurion army into account vs. another decurion army. Especially when it pigeon holes you (for the most part) into one God.

Does anyone know what the forge host formation gives?

Experiment 626 wrote:

No fix to our half worthless 'Daemon of...' rule
...
At least we're really used to bitter disappointment nowadays. Now 10 years and counting as being the random joke army of 40k.

There are no words... just none.

zendral wrote:
The bonuses from a decurion shouldn't be the focus of what is better off than someone else decurion. It's the parts that make it up like the units and formations, and in the case mentioned above, the new guard formations are fantastic compared to the daemon ones. In which case the daemon decurion pales in comparison with taking whole decurion army into account vs. another decurion army. Especially when it pigeon holes you (for the most part) into one God.

actually only 3 formations are worth taking the purpose of the other formations is to make the 3 ok-ish formations look better.

Also what is up with GW and FW and sacred numbers. I CSM 3.5 you got a free aspiring champion upgrade and a +1 bonus to summoning. Basically bonuses for playing your army to the Fluff. Now we get penalties instead. In the 4th Ed CD codex you were limited to your sacred number as the number of models in your elite units; back when they were good....sob. They removed that with the 6th Ed codex. Then FW makes the Daemon Lords cost absurd numbers of points: 666, 777, 888, 999 respectively; cause its fluffy. So, here we get formation minimums based of sacred number. Why? Every one else get formation rules for relatively small requirements. Cause its fluffy?

You know what would have been fluffy? Its a Daemonic Incursion formation why didn't get a rule where destroyed units go into reserves and return on roll of 6, or something.

 Sersi wrote:
Also what is up with GW and FW and sacred numbers. I CSM 3.5 you got a free aspiring champion upgrade and a +1 bonus to summoning.

That was the common sense approach.