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I can get it retail easy. Possibly even cheaper.

If you play board games and like the old world, I would definitely recommend it. If it'll just sit on a shelf, I'd just buy the horned rat expansion and throw it on ebay for a quick buck.

1)Dust had better pre-painted miniatures.

2) there is no hobby element in X-Wing, just gaming.

to some people 40k is more valuable, because:
-you have to put together miniatures
-paint them
-learn about the setting

These 3 steps make up for a higher price.
Firstly, you spend a lot of time preparing the miniatures for the game. For many people the games is just a bonus. You grow bigger affection to what you actually put effort in.

And now it's something kid won't try out, and maybe find out, that he likes(for now anyway)

X-wing can only ever be a substitute in the gaming department- and it's still giving "apples instead of oranges".

The "hero" said, that a regular force costs 250-600 bucks, which is half true (start collecting boxes are a dream) and implies the amount of money needed to be spent straight away.
(Considering they went for a 100 buck set of X-wing, and "x-wing only needs 100 big ones for a standard force)

By forcing his opinion thusly, he skipped the hobby part altogether. Nowhere it actually says, that 1500-2000pt is a standard army. Kill team is an option, 500-1000 pt is a good way to play. You don't just dump money on a bunch of space ships, building an army in one quick swoop of a hand with cash, then put them on the table and play. You FORGE your force during the hobby aspect.

I couldn't help myself and decided to check out "heros" posts- 2/3 contain: FETH GW, you should try x-wing.


Back on topic though: I'm quite said, that warhammer IP is no longer presented by one of the biggest companies in the industry. I was lead to believe, that bonds such as they had benefit the companies and gamers a lot. I'm not interested in RPGs that much... Never had a chance to try one (even DND 3,5). But I might need to buy Talisman quickly, as I've been on the edge of getting it for quite some time.

Is it any good by the way? most things I've read about it are quite positive, and I wanted to try out something akin to it.

X wing and 40k are completely different. The start collecting boxes can also help someone make a 1500 point army for pretty cheap (esp with the start collecting boxes). He could have also bought a battle at calth box on discount for $120 (30 marines, a dreadnought, 5 terminators, 2 characters... quite a few points), or he could have bought dark vengeance for $100 (two balanced complete forces with missions). How about kill team for $50-!60 (over 20 models for far cheaper than x wing / model). Any person with knowledge who isn't ignorance knows you don't need 1500 points to play in the 50k universe (he's a kid... probably not playing in tournaments dude). Large collections are made over time.

If that kid was already interested in 40k, I'm sure he:

1: already has friends who play
2: maybe wants to be creative and construct models
3: maybe likes to paint or wants to learn
4: likes the setting and rich fluff

He didn't know about xwing, so that means he knows no one who plays. If playing at a flgs he will be crushed unless he buys the newest, latest, greatest, etc, with the power creep in each wave. Even dice tower talks about this in regarda to families and kids. They said x wing is not for casual gamers if playing with anyone experienced. He will either lose interest or his folks will be paying a crap ron more soon for fragile models. I own many models from almost all game systems, gw makes some of the best models out there. X wing models are not bad, but are painted semi-poorly (why many repaint theirs).

To each their own but x wing poster just showed his explicit bias, and self d-ery thinking he was cool and hurting gw by selling a kid something he didn't want. Don't worry x wing folks, ffg has always stopped production of their games after several years... 40k has been around since longer than most who play in flgs. Gw will outlast xwing as a game (look at star wars minis... that was prepainted, popular, star wars, etc too).

The kids xwing models will be collecting dust in a couple weeks.

 notprop wrote:
RPGs....Pfft....soooo niche.

actually RPGs are quite popular and far from niche , especially when compared to table top miniature gaming, which very niche .

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
1)Dust had better pre-painted miniatures.

All the ones I saw were like this:



I heard they had like limited edition ones that were complete though.

to some people 40k is more valuable, because:
-you have to put together miniatures
-paint them
-learn about the setting

These 3 steps make up for a higher price.

The learn about the setting thing is a wash as well, the Star Wars universe has a ton of lore and novels and stuff too.

Having to put them together and paint them is also really idiosyncratic. Some will view it as a detraction compared to everything coming ready to go. Fantasy Flight has been giving the unpainted miniatures a go with Imperial Assault and soon with Rune Wars, so we'll see how that pans out for their target market.

I really don't think they "make up for a higher price" though. They might help those who are already interested justify their choices after the fact, but I think the existence of other unpainted miniatures at much more reasonable prices makes me think that's about as far as it goes.

Firstly, you spend a lot of time preparing the miniatures for the game. For many people the games is just a bonus. You grow bigger affection to what you actually put effort in.

I view painting as my primary hobby, so I get it. I think though, that there are loads of people who feel differently. Who liked FFG's 40k and old world games because they largely came ready to go. They might like X-Wing for the same reason.

I couldn't help myself and decided to check out "heros" posts- 2/3 contain: FETH GW, you should try x-wing.

GW should really look into what they might have done to create word of mouth advertising that drives people away from their products rather than towards them.

2) there is no hobby element in X-Wing, just gaming.

Sure, sure, absolutely noone's done any incredible paintjobs on their custom X-Wing squadrons (or even more insane - Armada squadrons!) or used fiber optics to fully light an Armada Star Destroyer, with engines, launch bays, and dozens of window lights.

Every miniatures game has an equal amount of hobby in it for the right gamer. I have a pair of custom Twi'lek Deathseed fighters from the Rogue Squadron novels that I made for my X-Wing collection, and a custom-painted YT-1300...right beside my 40k stuff.

It's ok to defend GW and 40k, I love both 40k and the Old World, too - but geez, man.

The main point being Fantasy Flight got the sale and GW did not.

I like to paint GW but like to play xwing

Hm, I was sure about dust... My mistake! I guess I only have seen the LE ones or something. Still more interesting minis in my opinion, and they are pre-painted (just in one color like green army men)

I'm not saying everyone's enjoying painting/putting together minis, I mean, that by buying x-Wing, the kids mum(with a little help from our friend) denied him that experience (again, if he really wanted 40k, he will just buy it some other time)
If you do like painting, ect, blabla, you squeeze out more value out of miniatures- more fun hours per buck. Like video games. Some of them (especially AAA titles) are darn expensive, but if you enjoy a game for tens/hundreds of hours, doesn't it pay for itself?
So, to conclude that analogy, don't 40k minis "make up for a higher price?"

Star Wars universe does have a huge amount of fluff, that's true. But I don't believe, I've seen FFG produce Any of it. Why does it matter? For some people having all the aspects of their hobby close is a good thing.

@AegisGrimm
I'm sorry, I upset you to the level, you had to utter "geez, man" in disgust

Indeed, there are folk , that repaint the mighty SW ships, make em look better and such. How often does it happen though ? How many people out of a hundred/ thousand do that? We'll never know, but I'm sure, the numbers are quite slim.

That will make you upset, but I view x-Wing gaming pieces, as just toys, not miniatures. What's the difference? You put your own effort and time into making a miniature. A toy you just buy and play with. And x-Wing are produced just for the latter.

Plus! X-wing fans are there for Star Wars, a bit like historical war gamers are ther for history- other players might break their immersion, if they bring purple tie fighters to the table. I'm sure, some gamers wont care, and even like it, if the paint job's a good 'un, but let's be honest, most ships are grey and "should" stay that way in the eyes of many people, who like SW fluff.

You'll ask me: but what about my repainted stuff? And it would be unfair to say, that didn't turn them into minis (unless you put a couple of stripes on and called it a day )


@mitochonndria

You will like 40k

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sure, sure, absolutely noone's done any incredible paintjobs on their custom X-Wing squadrons (or even more insane - Armada squadrons!) or used fiber optics to fully light an Armada Star Destroyer, with engines, launch bays, and dozens of window lights.

Nah he was right. With most miniature games you buy, build and paint them. X-Wing isn't like that. It isn't a miniature hobby (or even HHHobby) in the traditional sense. People adding lights or doing their own custom paint jobs is great, but that's not part of what X-Wing is.

For 40K, or Warmahordes, or Infinity, it's intrinsic to the experience. That doesn't make X-Wing inferior - I say this not to denigrate the game - only to point out that it is a different type of game, even if its roots may be in traditional miniature wargaming.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Star Wars universe does have a huge amount of fluff, that's true. But I don't believe, I've seen FFG produce Any of it.

Don't care about the argument either way, but just wanted to let yo know about this in case you were not familiar with this product range:



FFG have churned out a huge amount of fluff for the universe and expanded a hell of a lot of the background works. Have a peek and check it out if you are interested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game_%28Fantasy_Flight_Games%29

Mitochondria wrote:
The main point being Fantasy Flight got the sale and GW did not.

Well, I think the main point shown is that you feel you got one over on GW by scooping a sale away from them. GOOD FOR YOU!

 Vain wrote:

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Star Wars universe does have a huge amount of fluff, that's true. But I don't believe, I've seen FFG produce Any of it.

Don't care about the argument either way, but just wanted to let yo know about this in case you were not familiar with this product range:



FFG have churned out a huge amount of fluff for the universe and expanded a hell of a lot of the background works. Have a peek and check it out if you are interested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game_%28Fantasy_Flight_Games%29

That`s actualy pretty neat!
It is for another game though, not X-Wing. But I did stand incorrectly about FFG not making any fluff, my apologies

Indeed. For the kid it may not have been the best (who didn't get a toy they really didn't want cost Mum & Dad baulked at the price).

From the shops perspective he sold them on a potentially lower sales line.

So it probably worked out nicely for everyone....?

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

to some people 40k is more valuable, because:
-you have to put together miniatures
-paint them
-learn about the setting

To some people, all of those things make 40k less valuable. Not everyone likes the hobby aspect of the game (which is why comission painters exist), and in terms of pick up and play, X-Wing is far superior - you can literally be playing it within 5-10 minutes of handing over the cash.

Herzlos wrote:

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

to some people 40k is more valuable, because:
-you have to put together miniatures
-paint them
-learn about the setting

To some people, all of those things make 40k less valuable. Not everyone likes the hobby aspect of the game (which is why comission painters exist), and in terms of pick up and play, X-Wing is far superior - you can literally be playing it within 5-10 minutes of handing over the cash.

<sarcasm> Thanks for pointing that out, because when I said "to some people", that wasnt enough to explain, that not all people fit the category </sarcasm>

I'm sensing a good business opportunity, here.

Throw down a grand and hoover up these games whilst they're still around, sit on them for a few months, and then sell them on later for vastly inflated prices

I don't know if I could do that to my fellow dakka members.

 notprop wrote:
Indeed. For the kid it may not have been the best (who didn't get a toy they really didn't want cost Mum & Dad baulked at the price).

From the shops perspective he sold them on a potentially lower sales line.

So it probably worked out nicely for everyone....?

Well, apart from the kid who wanted 40K and didn't get it. who knows, he could have been hooked by the immersive wargaming hobby and gone into the painting, building and gaming side heavily, become a life long gamer. Instead, he got an item he wasn't looking for and could be another flash in the pan "forgotten in two weeks" gamer accordingly.

... or he might have been disgusted from wargaming after trying to play, finding the rules confusing and unbalanced, and ended not playing miniatures wargames for the rest of his life.

Guys, he didn't say to the mother "don't play that, X-wing is better", according to his account of the event, she asked how much it would cost, he ansered with a price range for an army that if anything was in favor of 40k by starting at 100$ (and even for a demo game, 100$ vous not give you much, at best a starter like Dark Vengeance where you get the rules, but with only two token small unbalanced forces and you still need your codex to go further).

Only after that did he said that they were alternative, and even there he started by asking if the kid was a star wars fan before even mentionning the game.

Also about having to assemble or paint miniatures, it's perfectly true that it will be something that will both please and displease different people, but mention it as something worth so much that having to do the job of painting and assembling the models myself is something that justify paying more, unless you think that GW should release a range of the very same miniatures prepainted and assembled but sold for less ?

jtrowell wrote:


Also about having to assemble or paint miniatures, it's perfectly true that it will be something that will both please and displease different people, but mention it as something worth so much that having to do the job of painting and assembling the models myself is something that justify paying more, unless you think that GW should release a range of the very same miniatures prepainted and assembled but sold for less ?

I do think that cutting out the hobby aspect turns miniatures into toys . For example: Witcher 3 collectors edition had a collectible statue sculpted by Scibor. It was painted like sh*t and made out of gak they use for these collectibles. But if Scibor was to sell them unpainted and anassembled, in resin, it would have had a much bigger value.

Dark vengeance has a lot of minis for 110$ (65 quid?). And two forces, that are playable. X-wing core set cost about 35 pounds and has 3 small pre-painted figurines. How much gaming value can you squeeze out of 3 ships?

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Star Wars universe does have a huge amount of fluff, that's true. But I don't believe, I've seen FFG produce Any of it. Why does it matter? For some people having all the aspects of their hobby close is a good thing.

I don't think even if FFG sold a fiction book with every wave of x-wing releases it would ever be as accessible or close as Star Wars media is right now. The amount of novels and comics and cartoon episodes and movies you can get with a visit to Amazon or directly to a tablet is astounding. Asking a game company to deliver that sort of stuff strikes me as being really inefficient.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

 Vain wrote:

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Star Wars universe does have a huge amount of fluff, that's true. But I don't believe, I've seen FFG produce Any of it.

Don't care about the argument either way, but just wanted to let yo know about this in case you were not familiar with this product range:



FFG have churned out a huge amount of fluff for the universe and expanded a hell of a lot of the background works. Have a peek and check it out if you are interested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game_%28Fantasy_Flight_Games%29

That`s actualy pretty neat!
It is for another game though, not X-Wing. But I did stand incorrectly about FFG not making any fluff, my apologies

If it's specifically for X-Wing, they did this one, which didn't exist before:



http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Raider_Expansion_Pack_(X-Wing)

As the manager of an FLGS, I would be annoyed if a customer was making sales pitches. That's my job! If a customer wants to join in a conversation and help me sell something that I'm already selling, fine - but at that stage it's more like butting in and trying to do the job of a staff member.

Anyway. Back on topic.

Anyone got any ideas where I can get a copy of CitOW?

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
As the manager of an FLGS, I would be annoyed if a customer was making sales pitches. That's my job! If a customer wants to join in a conversation and help me sell something that I'm already selling, fine - but at that stage it's more like butting in and trying to do the job of a staff member.

I've seen sales staff that acted in a similar manner. I think we've all known that guy who decides to push his bias on low information shoppers as a way to confirm the righteousness of his bias, and that kind of exploitation is not limited to just nosy customers.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:Indeed, there are folk , that repaint the mighty SW ships, make em look better and such. How often does it happen though ? How many people out of a hundred/ thousand do that? We'll never know, but I'm sure, the numbers are quite slim.

How many people DON'T paint the GW minis? hundreds/thousands/ tens of thousands? There is a HUGE amount of Grey Tide armies out there.

That will make you upset, but I view x-Wing gaming pieces, as just toys, not miniatures. What's the difference? You put your own effort and time into making a miniature. A toy you just buy and play with. And x-Wing are produced just for the latter.

I know this will make you upset, but miniatures are just TOY SOLDIERS. They are still toys. Toys that you paint and assemble, but in the end, they are toys as well. You are not better than a person who only likes to play X-wing. It seems here someone has an issue with playing with toys and is embarrassed about it by making an excuse what a toy is and isn't.

Plus! X-wing fans are there for Star Wars, a bit like historical war gamers are ther for history- other players might break their immersion, if they bring purple tie fighters to the table. I'm sure, some gamers wont care, and even like it, if the paint job's a good 'un, but let's be honest, most ships are grey and "should" stay that way in the eyes of many people, who like SW fluff.

What does this suppose to mean and prove? People don't play 40K because they are not 40K fans?

Yet, one may claim, that percentage is what matters I agree, there are far too many grey waves out there, I sometimes become a part of the problem myself.(have way too many unfinished crews/armies/warbands.)


I guess what toys are and aren't is a different subject

I like my toys- space hulk,dread fleet, a few dozen of unpainted Orks and goblins.

and I like my miniatures - Resurrectionists, Ciri, snikrot and all the other stuff I painted for pleasure and to raise my skill level, gaming with them is secondary.
So what's the difference?
Toys I use for gaming, but miniatures are to me what a canvas is to an artist. And some miniatures can be used for gaming as well. sorry, if the way I describe it (probably) portraits me as a very smug bugger.


everyone has their favorite part of the Hobby: gaming/ sculpting/ painting - to each their own.
But IMHO(!) a gaming piece, that is just that is a toy (like a chess piece), and a gaming piece, that you put effort into, thus, if I may, put a part of yourself into, is a miniature (like a chess piece, that you carved yourself, painted - it is suitable for a game, but not necessarily made just for it)

And there are a lot of miniatures like busts, large scale - they are closer to (are?) art. Are they toys as well in that case?

What I meant with x-wing having characteristics of a historical wargame is that, you have a limited "pallet" of possibilities with its figurines . You could do whatever you want with your ships -"paint them purple", but some folk would not apritiate having to fight something that doesn't look like from the movies. Like if someone were to paint Napoleon regiments in wrong colors and bring it to a Waterloo battle. Or a player, that has to face pink Uruk hai, when he has regular Rohan.

I hope the point I'm trying to make becomes a little clearer- I haven't been practicing my English for a while, and it starts to bring me difficulties.

X-wing is really more like a alternative historical game, like weird war 2 for instance. You can make up tons of stuff, i like making ships up from my imagination and can easily do just as much conversion as i do in 40k.

But 40k universe is still really the best in terms of offering a background to work in and possibilities to paint/model. The difference for me is, i can still paint and model in the xwing game and take it into a competitive environment. I can't properly do that in 40k mostly because the true competitive lists are almost never something i would want to model and paint, and they cycle so rapidly that its quite hard to bring an army up to high quality standards. As a painter I want to be working with variety and putting a lot of time into the individual figures, not painting 15 razorbacks.

So for me 40k is purely casual... and xwing is more competitive. And i model and paint for both, but far more for 40k.

In any case I think competition between the two companies, now that they are truly competing, will be better for the gamers and hobbyists both.

I wouldn't call both toy soldiers. It's like comparing hotwheel with model cars. Yes you can play with both, but one is open and play, the other is hobby based in modeling.

Difference is in the hobby, demographics, etc. X wing is like any other pre painted game... it is a toy soldier game that is collectable and very high dollar per miniature (starter set cost of three minis) and few ways to play (purpose is collecting, casual and tournament play). 40k is a hobby, many multi part models in a core set (low $ per miniature), with many different ways to play (40k, apocalypse style, kill team, tournament, etc). 40k's purpose is the entire hobby (books, modeling, painting, collecting, various games). And the storyline is different. Star wars has books and background in the story, 40k is storyline and fluff all for the purpose of a rich game.

Big difference between the two. Both have their purposes and target audiences, neither are targeted at the same demographics.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

I hope the point I'm trying to make becomes a little clearer- I haven't been practicing my English for a while, and it starts to bring me difficulties.

Fair enough.

As for what is a toy, Just don't call my Star Wars Figures dolls. They are ACTION FIGURES!