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Voss wrote:
I love that you're trying to make this a significant issue, but it isn't.

This applies so much more fittingly to you than to sebster.

 Galef wrote:
So it would make sense for him to have at least as much power now (at his peak) as either Anakin or Luke at their peaks.

Training is not a good measure of how powerful a Force user is. The degree of Force sensitivity seems to be at least as important - and, conceptually, it would be more important.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Then he loses to a trash boy and a girl with no training. It's a huge plot hole and it kills the story for me. I mean it absolutely kills it for me. I don't care how strong they want you to believe Rei is.

Kylo did not lose to Rey because she is a Mary Sue. He lost for 2 reasons.:
1) He wasn't trying to kill Rey...at all. He was trying to bring her to the Dark side, just like Vader did to Luke in ESB.
2) Kylo was probably dying during that scene and only survived because of his connection to the force. He had just been shot in the gut by Chewie's bowcaster, a weapon which was featured REPEATEDLY throwing armoured stormtroopers across the screen. Kylo took such a blast to the gut with no armour on.
Just look how sweaty he is when he confronts Rey & Finn...in the snow. He's only holding it together by inflicting pain onto himself to draw on the Dark side to keep standing.

If that "kills the story" for you, than maybe you should pay more attention to the movie. They SPECIFICALLY showcase Chewie's bowcaster earlier in the movie for this very setup.
There are no plot holes, all the info is there and makes perfect sense.

-

 Xenomancers wrote:
Then he loses to a trash boy and a girl with no training. It's a huge plot hole and it kills the story for me.

This isn't a plot hole; it's a plot development. Kylo on Jakku is ruthless and angry and focused. He obviously has some kind of past with the character played by von Sydow - but he murders him, nonetheless. On Takodana, Kylo terrorizes and easily captures Rey. Only after she detects his emotional insecurities during her interrogation and after he kills Han does Kylo lose his focus and start making mistakes. Even then, he has zero problems dispatching Finn. And by the way, just so the audience wouldn't have trouble following this, the movie includes shots of Kylo punching himself in his side where Chewy shot him to ramp up his pain and anger so that he could focus his power. And even if you missed it then, the movie also includes a shot of Kylo losing his focus altogether right before Rey cuts his face.

 Manchu wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Then he loses to a trash boy and a girl with no training. It's a huge plot hole and it kills the story for me.

This isn't a plot hole; it's a plot development. Kylo on Jakku is ruthless and angry and focused. He obviously has some kind of past with the character played by von Sydow - but he murders him, nonetheless. On Takodana, Kylo terrorizes and easily captures Rey. Only after she detects his emotional insecurities during her interrogation and after he kills Han does Kylo lose his focus and start making mistakes. Even then, he has zero problems dispatching Finn. And by the way, just so the audience wouldn't have trouble following this, the movie includes shots of Kylo punching himself in his side where Chewy shot him to ramp up his pain and anger so that he could focus his power. And even if you missed it then, the movie also includes a shot of Kylo losing his focus altogether right before Rey cuts his face.

Thats very deep for a B movie serial. I think you're reading too much into it. But each to his own.

...or you're not reading enough from it?

How is pointing out what happened on the screen "reading into it"? LOL

 Alpharius wrote:
...or you're not reading enough from it?

From a Flash Gordon level B movie serial? Thats not possible. Thats not what they are about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
How is pointing out what happened on the screen "reading into it"? LOL

Your previous paragraph is full of assumptions about winks etc. This is a JJ Adams lensflare movie not Stanley Kubrick.

If you refuse to consider what actually happens in the movie how can you possibly know what it is about?

 Manchu wrote:
If you refuse to consider what actually happens in the movie how can you possibly know what it is about?

No those are your conclusions.

Never mind, this has gotten too deep into fanweird for me.

 Manchu wrote:
just so the audience wouldn't have trouble following this, the movie includes shots of Kylo punching himself in his side where Chewy shot him to ramp up his pain and anger so that he could focus his power.

Yet there were a bunch of people that didn't understand what the point of him doing that was. I specifically recall having to tell people that it was probably something done to boost his adrenaline and anger to keep himself in the fight and focused. Only then did some of them go "Oh yeah that makes sense."

Same thing with Kylo vs Finn, people had to be specifically told he was just toying with him, because all they saw was Finn standing his ground, getting a hit in and then being beaten. They didnt get that it was Kylo toying with him until Finn actually did something dangerous and then he ended the fight.

The plot of TFA regading Kylo could not be more clear:

- introduced as powerful and ruthless
- easily captures Rey
- Rey freaks him out during interrogation
- kills Han to get clarity, doesn't work
- "slays" Finn in fit of anger
- wants to train Rey rather than kill her
- loses to Rey

These movies are made with children in mind so they can't be but so complicated.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
If you refuse to consider what actually happens in the movie how can you possibly know what it is about?

No those are your conclusions.

Sure. In the same way as showing us the speedometer in 'Speed' lets us conclude that the bus is moving at a certain speed...


None of what Manchu said was particularly deep interpretation. It was literally exactly what happened on the screen.

 insaniak wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
If you refuse to consider what actually happens in the movie how can you possibly know what it is about?

No those are your conclusions.

Sure. In the same way as showing us the speedometer in 'Speed' lets us conclude that the bus is moving at a certain speed...


None of what Manchu said was particularly deep interpretation. It was literally exactly what happened on the screen.

Agreed. If you missed it, you really were not paying attention.

Even Flash Gordon serials had characters and plot.

 Manchu wrote:
Only after she detects his emotional insecurities during her interrogation and after he kills Han does Kylo lose his focus and start making mistakes. Even then, he has zero problems dispatching Finn. And by the way, just so the audience wouldn't have trouble following this, the movie includes shots of Kylo punching himself in his side where Chewy shot him to ramp up his pain and anger so that he could focus his power. And even if you missed it then, the movie also includes a shot of Kylo losing his focus altogether right before Rey cuts his face.

That's part of the problem though. Kylo Ren can't mind read Rey but she can mind read him before Han is killed. She's more powerful than him. They're both receiving training so she's still going to be ahead.

Luke was more powerful than Vader, and he still got his butt whupped. Twice. It was only by tapping into his anger that Luke managed to get the better of Vader in the end.

And, really, while Rey held her own in the fight at the end of TFA, we don't know how it would have actually played out if it had run its course. All we know is that Rey managed to get the upper hand before the planet falling apart put an end to further shenanigans.

And whether or not any of that matters going forward will really depend on just what they have planned for those two characters.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Then he loses to a trash boy and a girl with no training. It's a huge plot hole and it kills the story for me.

This isn't a plot hole; it's a plot development. Kylo on Jakku is ruthless and angry and focused. He obviously has some kind of past with the character played by von Sydow - but he murders him, nonetheless. On Takodana, Kylo terrorizes and easily captures Rey. Only after she detects his emotional insecurities during her interrogation and after he kills Han does Kylo lose his focus and start making mistakes. Even then, he has zero problems dispatching Finn. And by the way, just so the audience wouldn't have trouble following this, the movie includes shots of Kylo punching himself in his side where Chewy shot him to ramp up his pain and anger so that he could focus his power. And even if you missed it then, the movie also includes a shot of Kylo losing his focus altogether right before Rey cuts his face.

Thats very deep for a B movie serial. I think you're reading too much into it. But each to his own.

Yeah... hard to take you seriously at this point Frazz.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
My problem with that part is that he was sent there and not escorted. This type of behaviour seems pretty much critical to avoid in childhood indoctrinated troops, yet they handle it like a slap on the wrist of what we see on screen. No escort, no restraining etc. I would assume they would have no problems disposing of people who keep disobeying. Yet Finn gets the tough love approach. At what point does a evil murderous organization turn on its own? How hard up are they for people that they don't just throw Finn in prison untill he is re-brainwashed (which incidentally might be a better way to get him in contact with Poe, using his experience in sanitation/systems to escape?).

Sending him without an escort was silly, but given it only backfired because a rebel pilot was on the ship at that exact moment, and it still required an impossible plan to work, I'm willing to give it a meh. Or at least a 'well that's just how Star Wars and similar genre stuff works' pass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
Yep. Going on what was apparently his first combat mission as a stormtrooper, complete with the greenhorn shakes.
He seems fine when strapped into a seat firing a gun (like a simulator), and has no qualms with shooting loads of people (ones he knew and worked with no less) in that situation, but out in the field he's routinely useless and making obvious mistakes. Exactly what you'd expect from a poorly trained part timer.

Oh look, you realised your argument fell apart, so now you're trying to reboot. Nope. Doesn't work that way. You used the 'teacher' argument, and I explained to you why 'sanitation' doesn't mean 'teacher', it means 'school'. Which makes your argument terrible.

I love that you're trying to make this a significant issue, but it isn't. Semi-competent sidekick worked sanitation, so I call him a janitor.

I'm not making this a significant issue, I'm just explaining to you the mistake you made, and you keep trying to deny it, so this drags on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
His abilities are well on display in the story. He catches a blaster shot mid air and freezes it in place. This is probably the greatest example of power ive seen in starwars. Then he loses to a trash boy and a girl with no training. It's a huge plot hole and it kills the story for me. I mean it absolutely kills it for me. I don't care how strong they want you to believe Rei is. Luke - the man who defeated vader - still got beat by Vader royally the first time they fought. Anakien lost to Duku after being trained by the greatest Jedis. This is just to stupid to even consider it starwars cannon IMO.

When Luke confronted Vader Luke was confused, and unaware of the truth. Vader was in control. The second time they met, Luke is in control, he now knows the story, and is committed to redeeming his father even at the cost of his own life. As Luke shows his commitment to his father and to the light side, it is Vader who becomes conflicted, and is defeated.

Kylo Ren had something similar. Early in the film he was committed to his path, but after Rey opened some emotional holes, and after Kylo struggled with what killing his own father meant, he became weaker. Having been shot by the bowcaster probably didn't help either. On the other Rey, who up until this point was shown searching for answers, was now shown in a moment of absolute clarity and focus on defeating Kylo.

This is how Star Wars works. It was never a kung fu drama about who had the best training. It was always about Jedi battles representating internal character struggles. Just look at the training Luke goes through, it wasn't about technique or balance -
it was about self discovery, 'do or do not' etc...

Though I understand that a lot of people can miss this, as Lucas himself forgot it for most of the prequels.

 sebster wrote:
When Luke confronted Vader Luke was confused, and unaware of the truth. Vader was in control. The second time they met, Luke is in control, he now knows the story, and is committed to redeeming his father even at the cost of his own life. As Luke shows his commitment to his father and to the light side, it is Vader who becomes conflicted, and is defeated.

Kylo Ren had something similar. Early in the film he was committed to his path, but after Rey opened some emotional holes, and after Kylo struggled with what killing his own father meant, he became weaker. Having been shot by the bowcaster probably didn't help either. On the other Rey, who up until this point was shown searching for answers, was now shown in a moment of absolute clarity and focus on defeating Kylo.

I think this fits in well with the theory that TFA remakes beats from the whole OT. Rey even taps into the dark side for a moment, just like Luke does in RotJ

I also think this is the "raw power" the Luke is referring to in TLJ trailer. It didn't scare him enough when fighting Vader, but it does scare him now that it turns Ben Solo to the dark side (speculation, of course)

-

 sebster wrote:
This is how Star Wars works. It was never a kung fu drama about who had the best training. It was always about Jedi battles representating internal character struggles. Just look at the training Luke goes through, it wasn't about technique or balance - it was about self discovery, 'do or do not' etc....

Well said.

 sebster wrote:


This is how Star Wars works. It was never a kung fu drama about who had the best training. It was always about Jedi battles representating internal character struggles. Just look at the training Luke goes through, it wasn't about technique or balance -
it was about self discovery, 'do or do not' etc...

100% true. However, if Luke had been taught to parry properly, maybe he'd still have his hand?

I mean, Yoda could have shown him a few YouTube clips and that would have helped a little. Something?

 kronk wrote:

100% true. However, if Luke had been taught to parry properly, maybe he'd still have his hand?

There's only so much you can squeeze into a week and a half. It's impressive that Luke even knew which end of the lightsaber to point at people, let alone fight anything with it.

 insaniak wrote:

 kronk wrote:

100% true. However, if Luke had been taught to parry properly, maybe he'd still have his hand?

There's only so much you can squeeze into a week and a half. It's impressive that Luke even knew which end of the lightsaber to point at people, let alone fight anything with it.

imagine what he could have done if had a good training montage!

 insaniak wrote:

 kronk wrote:

100% true. However, if Luke had been taught to parry properly, maybe he'd still have his hand?

There's only so much you can squeeze into a week and a half. It's impressive that Luke even knew which end of the lightsaber to point at people, let alone fight anything with it.

I know, right?!

Odd thought....

Luke must've found it very strange to fight Vader.

Being force sensitive, like his Father before him he's likely been able to tap into The Force to some degree all his life - including being able to react to things before they happen (hence the familial piloting ability).

When you've just had that knack all your life, how weird must it be to come across someone who's actually honed that ability?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Odd thought....

Luke must've found it very strange to fight Vader.

Being force sensitive, like his Father before him he's likely been able to tap into The Force to some degree all his life - including being able to react to things before they happen (hence the familial piloting ability).

When you've just had that knack all your life, how weird must it be to come across someone who's actually honed that ability?

Why didn't Luke get into sportsball as a kid? I'm sure Tattooine has an intragalactic soccer team or something! He could have gone pro! He could have been somebody. He could have been a contender. LEIA!!!!!

I'm pretty sure he was the Planetary Womp Rat Shooting Champion?

T-16 racer?

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm pretty sure he was the Planetary Womp Rat Shooting Champion?

I'm surprised how often people forget this and act like Luke just jumped into an X-Wing and flew it with no prior experience. To be fair they never actually showed him flying prior to that, and it was just an offhand comment towards the end of the film, but still.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm pretty sure he was the Planetary Womp Rat Shooting Champion?

I'm surprised how often people forget this and act like Luke just jumped into an X-Wing and flew it with no prior experience. To be fair they never actually showed him flying prior to that, and it was just an offhand comment towards the end of the film, but still.

Two comments - Obi Wan mentions at the start that he's heard Luke is a good pilot, like his father.

They expanded on it all in the EU stuff, with the idea that the X-wing and Luke's T-16 were made by the same company and shared very similar control interfaces.

Man this wait is killing me. I'm stuck between forced indifference (just to make the time go faster) and anxious anticipation.