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Also, I love how the lists in these theoreticals always wildly swing back and forth. Is the ork player using a standard competitive ork list or not? Clearly they're forgoing using the competitive ork HQs because they do have Ghaz and they don't have biker HQs. But now they can never use grot shields to stop wounds to ghaz because they need to protect a theoretical loota bomb, and they need to be so bleeding edge competitive they can't include a trukk?

If you're going to argue like this, why not just say "there are no gretchin in the list, therefore you can't use that stratagem you have".

And also, it is not JUST the privileged meta factions that are getting functional assassins. At this point, between this release and the GSC release, 10 factions have access to this new wave of actually functional/efficient character removal. And of the factions that currently appear in the competitive meta, four of the bigger players (Drukhari Craftworlds Ynnari and Tau) do not.

So by "only privileged factions get access to this" you mean "THREE meta factions get access to this, and SEVEN factions out of the meta get access to this."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
-claims that index options in Ork roster are invalid because muh index not allowed anywhere

-complaining about options in brand new Index: Imperial Assassins.

Pick one?

Surely if I'm in a meta where index rules are not allowed, I would not be allowed to use Index: Imperial Assassins?

One has a codex, the other does not.
There is your difference.

How have you established a difference here? None of these units appear in any codex. Why is one going to be not allowed and the other is? If you disallow "Indexes" you can't say "oh but not THESE indexes, these ones printed in a magazine are obviously...more...official?"

Harlequins are basically assassins, Orks have the same shenanigans for doing crazy crap, and Tau, well, anyone who plays Tau deserves a pie in the face (They know what they did....). Who does that leave that doesn't benefit from this?

Chaos? They have Cypher, plus a new slew of units coming out.
Zerg - See:Brood Brothers
Necrons - I dunno, oh well?
Alderi - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

The Solitair is basically an assassin for the Aeldari. He move super fast and hits like a hammer, often the best use for him is running in and smashing a couple of character models.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
-claims that index options in Ork roster are invalid because muh index not allowed anywhere

-complaining about options in brand new Index: Imperial Assassins.

Pick one?

Surely if I'm in a meta where index rules are not allowed, I would not be allowed to use Index: Imperial Assassins?

One has a codex, the other does not.
There is your difference.

How have you established a difference here? None of these units appear in any codex. Why is one going to be not allowed and the other is? If you disallow "Indexes" you can't say "oh but not THESE indexes, these ones printed in a magazine are obviously...more...official?"

Index turns into codex. some units don't make the transition. Other is still an index without a codex.

If you can't see the difference between the 2 there is no reason to discuss it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
An Eversor with 8 attacks and using Neuro-gauntlet will kill on average 5 guardsman, 5 more attacks brings it up to 8 dead. He then likely can't consolidate into a new squad because you leave the 2 closest models on the table and he gets shot off the board.

I remain unconvinced.

That's a pretty narrow margin. If he kills 6 instead of 5.2 then he gets 6 more attacks, which kill 4. And you still have morale, which to be safe they would need to spend CP to stick. And then you'd need to clear a 6" bubble around him.

And then to take out 6 4++/4+++ wounds it would be about 35 FRFSRF IS within 12".

Knocking down 40 points, 2 CP, and the shooting from that many models for 85 points is not bad, but then I probably would still aim for sniping CC against IG.

Why do I need them to stick? Moral is after the Fight phase. those remaining can die without consequence.

 WisdomLS wrote:
The Solitair is basically an assassin for the Aeldari. He move super fast and hits like a hammer, often the best use for him is running in and smashing a couple of character models.

The solitaire does very similar things to the eversor, he just basically has to start on the board rather than deep striking and charging fairly reliably, but he has access to a double move psychic power and Fly to get him where he's going.

The Eversor also does not have access to relics like suit of knives/cegorach's rose, doesn't get a detachment trait and doesn't have nearly the depth of stratagem support the solitaire has.

I'd take a solitaire over either of the two straight melee assassins any day. And I do, since I frequently play harlequins. Suit of Knives solitaire in a silent shroud detachment is the real horde shredder.

the_scotsman wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:
The Solitair is basically an assassin for the Aeldari. He move super fast and hits like a hammer, often the best use for him is running in and smashing a couple of character models.

The solitaire does very similar things to the eversor, he just basically has to start on the board rather than deep striking and charging fairly reliably, but he has access to a double move psychic power and Fly to get him where he's going.

The Eversor also does not have access to relics like suit of knives/cegorach's rose, doesn't get a detachment trait and doesn't have nearly the depth of stratagem support the solitaire has.

I'd take a solitaire over either of the two straight melee assassins any day. And I do, since I frequently play harlequins. Suit of Knives solitaire in a silent shroud detachment is the real horde shredder.

How much Strategem support does an Eversor need though? He already has the two important ones. What else does the Solitaire have that the Eversor would be that jealous of outside relics?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:
The Solitair is basically an assassin for the Aeldari. He move super fast and hits like a hammer, often the best use for him is running in and smashing a couple of character models.

The solitaire does very similar things to the eversor, he just basically has to start on the board rather than deep striking and charging fairly reliably, but he has access to a double move psychic power and Fly to get him where he's going.

The Eversor also does not have access to relics like suit of knives/cegorach's rose, doesn't get a detachment trait and doesn't have nearly the depth of stratagem support the solitaire has.

I'd take a solitaire over either of the two straight melee assassins any day. And I do, since I frequently play harlequins. Suit of Knives solitaire in a silent shroud detachment is the real horde shredder.

How much Strategem support does an Eversor need though? He already has the two important ones. What else does the Solitaire have that the Eversor would be that jealous of outside relics?

Eversor has the ability to boost durability by 50% for 1cp for a phase, and fight twice for 2cp (but a 50% chance of taking a MW)

Solitaire can fight twice, ignore overwatch if Silent Shroud, redeploy for 1cp, add 2 to Strength and Attacks for 1cp, auto-6 advance for 1cp, 6" heroic intervene for 1cp, reroll hit and wound vs slaanesh for 1cp, -1 to hit (which can be comboed with suit of knives) for 2cp, fight when it dies with +1Str and +1A if Midnight Sorrow, and add 1 to wound rolls if Frozen Stars.

It also gets a masque trait, which can be the Silent Shroud -1 to morale and roll 2 take the highest (probably the highest impact single LD debuff in the game), frozen stars +1A when charging or Midnight Sorrow consolidate 6".

The solitaire is just a much more flexible piece IMO. I'd rather have a guy who starts on the board but can move 24"+2D6" with a psychic power or 12"+2D6" without one, has his choice of a flat 3 damage version of the eversor's claw or a relic that lets him stack -to hit debuffs to force horde units to shred themselves on him.

If you're comparing a solitaire where you've got a fixed trait on him (one of the ones that benefits him) and at least one Shadowseer to buff him vs an assassin you'll be fielding with the stratagem, I think the assassins are more flexible. You can wind up in situations where the solitaire just won't be useful and you can swap the assassin over to a Culexus or Vindicare and it might be useful, like if your opponent is just spamming vehicles or something and doesn't have hardly any infantry, let alone characters for you to get at. But I think investing 1cp in his relic vs investing 1cp to field the assassin, you'll get more out of the solitaire than you will out of either of the two melee bomb assassins.

I just wish some of the other "assassin-esque" characters the aeldari had were anywhere near as useful. A Death Jester or Illic Nightspear is in a pretty sorry state if you compare him to a vindicare. But I'm not so petulant that I'll stomp my feet and go "NO! My favorite sniper is underpowered so your sniper has to be underpowered too, it's NOT FAIR, unless all rules come out at once nobody is allowed to get new rules!" The death jester is honestly the perfect example of why single shot snipers need to be more on the vindicare's end of reliability: his little "morale sniper" ability is just too unreliable for him to be worth anything more than 30-40 points, and if he ever did get down to that level you'd just be tempted to have him dakka'ing away as a Character protected BS2+ shuriken cannon.

 Ordana wrote:
Why do I need them to stick? Moral is after the Fight phase. those remaining can die without consequence.

Yes, true, but then he does have a pistol so killing a couple there and still making the charge with a 3D6 should still be easy enough.

I'm not sure why everyone's freaking out about the fight-y assassins. They're going to be way less impactful than the other two, as it's not like firepower is really lacking in the top lists. I'd much rather have a callidus (or culexus in the obvious corner cases), as that's a lot of wasted CP that your opponent can't do anything about. Two rounds of increased CP costs is going to make a serious dent with the way most soup burns through them, then you just suicide charge her into the juiciest thing that presents itself. With her super-deepstrike and five attacks with a D2 power sword that ignores invuls, she's got pretty good odds of killing a character that got a little sloppy with movement or even just scrapping some heavy infantry.

 Eihnlazer wrote:

If your using the Eversor just for infantry squads he wont get his points back, however he actually earns back more than twice his points in ork boyz. He kills a bit over 9 ork boyz when he charges, then if you fight twice he ends up killing 19 total, destroying an entire 30 boy squad (due to moral) by himself. If you shoot off another 20 ork boyz with the rest of your army only one of those squads can CP moral so yeah, he's pretty efficient againgst the right targets.

Remember he fights again at the end of the phase, not immediately. In between the two (assuming he gets the charge off, as he is faster) he get utterly pasted by the remaining 20 or so boyz. It only takes about a dozen survivors to kill him before he gets to attack twice, not counting anything special the nob dishes out. That's without any wounds taken in overwatch, either, which should do a bit more than a wound to him even assuming we're just talking pistols.

Not exactly earth-shattering. He seems best at targeting squishy backline squads (since he loses so much kick when fighting characters) that don't have any melee (or overwatch) bite, using his 6" consolidation to get from one to another. IG heavy weapon squads, maybe? The ratling squads outperforming the vindicare bricks?

the_scotsman wrote:
Also, I love how the lists in these theoreticals always wildly swing back and forth. Is the ork player using a standard competitive ork list or not? Clearly they're forgoing using the competitive ork HQs because they do have Ghaz and they don't have biker HQs. But now they can never use grot shields to stop wounds to ghaz because they need to protect a theoretical loota bomb, and they need to be so bleeding edge competitive they can't include a trukk?

If you're going to argue like this, why not just say "there are no gretchin in the list, therefore you can't use that stratagem you have".

What are you even talking about? The standard competitive Ork lists have the following that are tasty targets for these assassins;
Weirdboy
Weirdboy
Weirdboy
SAG Big Mek
Mega Armoured Warboss
Lootas
Boyz (like, a lot of them)

The SAG Mek is key and if they go poof our win rate plummets. Guess what the Vindicare is pretty handy at dealing with? And the Grot Oiler will protect him for a turn, assuming no other snipers exist (so you're not playing an SM player then).

Yes, Grot Shields can be used once per round so you get to decide if your Lootas or your SAG stick around because both will be targeted and it is very likely one disappears. Not to mention that your Weirdboyz better not show their faces. What about that Megaboss? I guess he can hide behind those imaginary Trukks that no competitive player takes?

And also, it is not JUST the privileged meta factions that are getting functional assassins. At this point, between this release and the GSC release, 10 factions have access to this new wave of actually functional/efficient character removal. And of the factions that currently appear in the competitive meta, four of the bigger players (Drukhari Craftworlds Ynnari and Tau) do not.

So by "only privileged factions get access to this" you mean "THREE meta factions get access to this, and SEVEN factions out of the meta get access to this."

Is this directed at me or another person? I don't want to answer if you're referring to someone else here and put words in their mouth but this seems vaguely familiar to something I said last page.

So a couple of things I’m factoring into the eversor usefulness.

The first as mentioned by other people is that I’m factoring his pistol shots into the equation when saying he kills an infantry squad on average. Yes you won’t always use the pistol to ensure an easier charge, but this scenario should be the exception rather than the norm. Even if you don’t use the pistol the squad is still likely to die due to moral, above average dice rolls on your part, or sentinel shots next turn.

Second I’m actually not at all upset by the idea that my eversor will be shot off the board next turn. With the stratagem it takes an average of 144 las gun shots to take him out (144 shots, 72 hits, 24 wounds 12 fails saves, 6 failed FNP). At this point I’ll get a mortarian explosion from him, which could be rather nasty. For 85 points and 2 CP this seems like a fairly nice trade off, and this scenario assumes the Eversor will get shot off the board immediately (not as likely as some of you think). Getting his points back isn’t my main concern, I see Eversor as mainly a distraction carnifex.

To the end of him surviving, remember that the eversor has an extremely small footprint meaning it’s very hard to effectively screen him out. In the correct position that Eversor is going to be quite hard to shoot at as he is still a character, and it’s very likely he won’t be nearby your opponents scary shooting. Killing a squad of guardsman and taking their objective sounds amazing to me as I believe mission is far more important than “getting your points back.”

Salt donkey wrote:
Getting his points back isn’t my main concern, I see Eversor as mainly a distraction carnifex.

Probably the best way to view him. I ran the eversor a fair bit in early 8th and while the newly minted rules have more punch it looks similarly unspectacular on the initial charge.
The guy tended to get bogged down with small-fry, either locked in combat or just surrounded, and despite the meltabombs he has little impact on tanks. After a while I started dropping him in as assault-support for Celestine or holding him for later in the game to bail out/counter charge, with mixed results.

Assassins getting good rules is great.

Assassins being easily added to IG with infinite CP and an already top tier list is not.

 Marmatag wrote:
Assassins getting good rules is great.

Assassins being easily added to IG with infinite CP and an already top tier list is not.

So, would you be mad if Space Marines got a major rules buff because they can be added in to IG with an already top tier list?

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:
The Solitair is basically an assassin for the Aeldari. He move super fast and hits like a hammer, often the best use for him is running in and smashing a couple of character models.

The solitaire does very similar things to the eversor, he just basically has to start on the board rather than deep striking and charging fairly reliably, but he has access to a double move psychic power and Fly to get him where he's going.

The Eversor also does not have access to relics like suit of knives/cegorach's rose, doesn't get a detachment trait and doesn't have nearly the depth of stratagem support the solitaire has.

I'd take a solitaire over either of the two straight melee assassins any day. And I do, since I frequently play harlequins. Suit of Knives solitaire in a silent shroud detachment is the real horde shredder.

How much Strategem support does an Eversor need though? He already has the two important ones. What else does the Solitaire have that the Eversor would be that jealous of outside relics?

Eversor has the ability to boost durability by 50% for 1cp for a phase, and fight twice for 2cp (but a 50% chance of taking a MW)

Solitaire can fight twice, ignore overwatch if Silent Shroud, redeploy for 1cp, add 2 to Strength and Attacks for 1cp, auto-6 advance for 1cp, 6" heroic intervene for 1cp, reroll hit and wound vs slaanesh for 1cp, -1 to hit (which can be comboed with suit of knives) for 2cp, fight when it dies with +1Str and +1A if Midnight Sorrow, and add 1 to wound rolls if Frozen Stars.

It also gets a masque trait, which can be the Silent Shroud -1 to morale and roll 2 take the highest (probably the highest impact single LD debuff in the game), frozen stars +1A when charging or Midnight Sorrow consolidate 6".

The solitaire is just a much more flexible piece IMO. I'd rather have a guy who starts on the board but can move 24"+2D6" with a psychic power or 12"+2D6" without one, has his choice of a flat 3 damage version of the eversor's claw or a relic that lets him stack -to hit debuffs to force horde units to shred themselves on him.

If you're comparing a solitaire where you've got a fixed trait on him (one of the ones that benefits him) and at least one Shadowseer to buff him vs an assassin you'll be fielding with the stratagem, I think the assassins are more flexible. You can wind up in situations where the solitaire just won't be useful and you can swap the assassin over to a Culexus or Vindicare and it might be useful, like if your opponent is just spamming vehicles or something and doesn't have hardly any infantry, let alone characters for you to get at. But I think investing 1cp in his relic vs investing 1cp to field the assassin, you'll get more out of the solitaire than you will out of either of the two melee bomb assassins.

I just wish some of the other "assassin-esque" characters the aeldari had were anywhere near as useful. A Death Jester or Illic Nightspear is in a pretty sorry state if you compare him to a vindicare. But I'm not so petulant that I'll stomp my feet and go "NO! My favorite sniper is underpowered so your sniper has to be underpowered too, it's NOT FAIR, unless all rules come out at once nobody is allowed to get new rules!" The death jester is honestly the perfect example of why single shot snipers need to be more on the vindicare's end of reliability: his little "morale sniper" ability is just too unreliable for him to be worth anything more than 30-40 points, and if he ever did get down to that level you'd just be tempted to have him dakka'ing away as a Character protected BS2+ shuriken cannon.

Here's the thing: what did you actually name that the Eversor doesn't really get or even need?
1. Overwatch is really not dangerous outside niche situations. You also named a particular Masque for doing that, which means it doesn't apply to other types of Solitaires. So do you want to list this as a generic benefit and strictly talk about Silent Shroud and not about other Masque abilities?
2. The Eversor is already striking at S4 or S5, and at S5 is rerolling to wound. That doesn't require a CP out of him.
3. The Eversor already consolidates 6".
4. The auto-advance is nice, but once deployed the Eversor already has a reliable 3D6 charge.
5. Rerolling to hit a particular daemon or mark is useless, especially when the model already hits on a 2+.
6. Adding Psyker powers to the equation is another how many points you needed to try and make the Solitaire effective?

Seriously, outside relics (where you only get the straight D3 vs Infantry, so the Suit of Knives would probably be a better overall pick, especially when you'll have enough attacks to make up for the DD3. Shred is kinda cool though), a good amount of what you named is to specific Masque Forms.
I'm not saying the Solitaire isn't a good piece. Hell, I plan to start Harlequins at some point when I'm finally done with my Marines. However, to pull off a lot of what he does, the Eversor needs very little babysitting and CPs fed to him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Salt donkey wrote:
So a couple of things I’m factoring into the eversor usefulness.

The first as mentioned by other people is that I’m factoring his pistol shots into the equation when saying he kills an infantry squad on average. Yes you won’t always use the pistol to ensure an easier charge, but this scenario should be the exception rather than the norm. Even if you don’t use the pistol the squad is still likely to die due to moral, above average dice rolls on your part, or sentinel shots next turn.

Second I’m actually not at all upset by the idea that my eversor will be shot off the board next turn. With the stratagem it takes an average of 144 las gun shots to take him out (144 shots, 72 hits, 24 wounds 12 fails saves, 6 failed FNP). At this point I’ll get a mortarian explosion from him, which could be rather nasty. For 85 points and 2 CP this seems like a fairly nice trade off, and this scenario assumes the Eversor will get shot off the board immediately (not as likely as some of you think). Getting his points back isn’t my main concern, I see Eversor as mainly a distraction carnifex.

To the end of him surviving, remember that the eversor has an extremely small footprint meaning it’s very hard to effectively screen him out. In the correct position that Eversor is going to be quite hard to shoot at as he is still a character, and it’s very likely he won’t be nearby your opponents scary shooting. Killing a squad of guardsman and taking their objective sounds amazing to me as I believe mission is far more important than “getting your points back.”

He already charges 3D6. You can shoot one Infantry squad, charge another one, fight twice, and consolidate into the shot one. When they fall back, he automatically shoots at them. Pure and simple.

 Trimarius wrote:
I'm not sure why everyone's freaking out about the fight-y assassins. They're going to be way less impactful than the other two, as it's not like firepower is really lacking in the top lists. I'd much rather have a callidus (or culexus in the obvious corner cases), as that's a lot of wasted CP that your opponent can't do anything about. Two rounds of increased CP costs is going to make a serious dent with the way most soup burns through them, then you just suicide charge her into the juiciest thing that presents itself. With her super-deepstrike and five attacks with a D2 power sword that ignores invuls, she's got pretty good odds of killing a character that got a little sloppy with movement or even just scrapping some heavy infantry.

Remember he fights again at the end of the phase, not immediately. In between the two (assuming he gets the charge off, as he is faster) he get utterly pasted by the remaining 20 or so boyz. It only takes about a dozen survivors to kill him before he gets to attack twice, not counting anything special the nob dishes out. That's without any wounds taken in overwatch, either, which should do a bit more than a wound to him even assuming we're just talking pistols.
?

You are underestimating the eversors duriblity. With the stratagem up, it takes 72 boy attacks to kill an eversor. That’s going to be very hard to get considering the eversor player has gotten the charge and therefore has much great control of who gets to fight. Honestly here I might just forgo the fight twice stratagem and just set my Eversor as a road block for that ork unit. In the land of dakka people are focusing too much on the eversors killing pontential and not enough on his disruptive abilities.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
What about that Megaboss? I guess he can hide behind those imaginary Trukks that no competitive player takes?

You're still missing the forest for the trees. To be able to snipe they have to spend 85 points, which is more than a trukk. To protect their own they need bodyguards, which will also be as much as a trukk. If it becomes meta to bring an assassin then sacrificing for a LOS blocker is a no brainer.

Eldar already have a WS, so they don't change. It only gets weird when Eldar faces a non-assassin army so you need to make a trukk or BW work in context versus them.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Assassins getting good rules is great.

Assassins being easily added to IG with infinite CP and an already top tier list is not.

So, would you be mad if Space Marines got a major rules buff because they can be added in to IG with an already top tier list?

You're describing what we had with BA Smash Captains. Yes, that was silly. And if you recall, ALL captains were nerfed. Not IG undercosted nonsense CP-generation that allow captains to be broken. Thunder Hammers went up, Storm Shields went up. So a Space Wolves captain paid for a BA captain's powerful stratagems, made possible by IG. Horrible balance.

Personally I think that CP generation is something that can be easily addressed and have a real positive impact on the game. Many people have thrown out the idea of starting with 15, and losing CP depending on what you bring. Something like, Battalions and Brigades don't subtract CP, but all other detachments do, every additional <FACTION> keyword subtracts CP, and super-heavies / lord of war subtract CP.

Suddenly it puts everyone on equal footing. If someone wants to make an argument that imperial guard *deserves* to have the easiest access to CP in the game, they have yet to make it.

I still think the big deal is the 1CP strat to "summon" anyone one assasin.

Would you need to specify which one in your list? Demon summoning doesn't need to, but I'm not 100% at what stage you'd actually use the stratagem.

If you do need to specify it (like Relics or Chapter Master or whatnot), then it's not that big a deal - basically, spend 1 CP to not use a detatchment. Still possibly useful as a lot of formats cap you at 3 detatchments.

If you *don't* need to specify it in list building, then being able to pick which assasin you want for that matchup is quite brutal.

The things I have a problem with are:
1) If you *can* use that strat to pick the Assasin you want per-game...
2) 85 points? Seems a bit light. Especially if you compare the Vindicare to Illic. (Yay, Illic gets a trait! So he can only lose 1 model to Morale, and doesn't degrade as fast! ...)

After this thread, I'm no longer of the opinion that the sky is falling.

Deleted

The ability to summon an assassin for 1cp is actually really cool. Really good at to the game imho. It would be better if it was 1cp for everyone, and 5cp for guard.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
What about that Megaboss? I guess he can hide behind those imaginary Trukks that no competitive player takes?

You're still missing the forest for the trees. To be able to snipe they have to spend 85 points, which is more than a trukk. To protect their own they need bodyguards, which will also be as much as a trukk. If it becomes meta to bring an assassin then sacrificing for a LOS blocker is a no brainer.

Eldar already have a WS, so they don't change. It only gets weird when Eldar faces a non-assassin army so you need to make a trukk or BW work in context versus them.

Geewhizz I sure hope nobody kills my T6, 10W, 4+ save LOS blocking Trukk before sniping my key character to gak. Thus completely negating my 65pt spend...

It's almost like everyone is forgetting that the only strong Ork build in the world that we live in where a Castellan deletes what he wants when he wants is to have so many bodies that the Castellan has no viable targets to shoot.

Finer point: it is usually viable to trace LOS to infantry behind a Wave Serpent, provided you're not on higher ground.

You can somewhat reasonably LOS-block a Farseer on a Bike, but your elite Sniper can headshot a Farseer in the foot, if it's hiding behind a Serpent (or other hovering vehicle).

Bharring wrote:
I still think the big deal is the 1CP strat to "summon" anyone one assasin.

Would you need to specify which one in your list? Demon summoning doesn't need to, but I'm not 100% at what stage you'd actually use the stratagem.

If you do need to specify it (like Relics or Chapter Master or whatnot), then it's not that big a deal - basically, spend 1 CP to not use a detatchment. Still possibly useful as a lot of formats cap you at 3 detatchments.

If you *don't* need to specify it in list building, then being able to pick which assasin you want for that matchup is quite brutal.

The things I have a problem with are:
1) If you *can* use that strat to pick the Assasin you want per-game...
2) 85 points? Seems a bit light. Especially if you compare the Vindicare to Illic. (Yay, Illic gets a trait! So he can only lose 1 model to Morale, and doesn't degrade as fast! ...)

After this thread, I'm no longer of the opinion that the sky is falling.

It's the exact same mechanic as Daemon summoning, you don't have to specify in your list, just leave 85 points free. That's the entire point of the stratagem.

I agree with your conclusion, but don't demon summoning rules include placement rules?

The Assassin strat needs to be played earlier than a lot of summoning happens, but well after list construction.

Bharring wrote:
I agree with your conclusion, but don't demon summoning rules include placement rules?

The Assassin strat needs to be played earlier than a lot of summoning happens, but well after list construction.

Have you read the new rules? Because the third sentence of the stratagem answers your question.

That sentence was my point. I'm just clarifying that it *is* notably different than demon summoning.

I was hoping you'd post in this thread, as it was my read too and wanted to see if I was missing something. Should have done a YMDC thread instead of doing it here, but it sounds like there's no dissenting read.

So, I thoiught this might work the same as the new GSC would work, with "Off table summons". Basically, they can summon any unit whether it's on the list or not. I think it's a strat? But the points aren't counted towards the army. You just get a free model.

This strat is very clear that you *do* spend the points - fortunately all 4 are exactly 85 points.

You have to pay the points in Matched Play via Reinforcement Points, that's why it only costs 1 CP in matched play.