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Sterling191 wrote:
At T6 and no invuln they’re gonna pop like nobodies business

I'm still having a hard time understanding people's issue with T6. The drop from T7 doesn't actually matter against the VAST majority of weapons. Str3,4,5 & 8+ all still wound exactly the same as-if the Invictor was T7. The ONLY weapons this matters against are S6/7, and outside of Eldar and Plasma, I'm not fully aware of a ton of those weapons being spammable to threaten the Invictor.

Even Plasma will still WANT to supercharge for the D2, so again the T drop wouldn't matter. And against Eldar spamming S6, the Invictor has the ability to get close, something Eldar can ill-afford

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its more theres plenty of randomly S6 high ap weapons that CAN hurt a vehicle, but usually dont because of the T7.
Ask any ork player that uses their T6 vehicles. They tend to die to "that random weapon" that isnt massed but hits hard, that isnt strong enough to reliably hurt T7 so you usually overlook it otherwise.

If the Invictor was 10-11 wounds, I might agree that T6 makes it squishy, but at 13 wounds, I'd argue that it's just as durable as a regular (or even Venerable) Dread at T7 with 8 wounds, but has far better odds of getting into melee

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13W is also that butterzone where you usually need 1 more shot to actually kill it.
The difference between 10-12W is extremely minimal as generally theyre getting whacked with flat 3 or D6 damage weapons.
I fully expect to see multiples of those finkrats on the table. Its just so cheap how could you not use it? I imagine the people thinking its too squishy are those who dont also bring bigger vehicles to draw fire and for some reason expect autocannons to shoot at it instead of their primaris marines.

 Galef wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
At T6 and no invuln they’re gonna pop like nobodies business

I'm still having a hard time understanding people's issue with T6. The drop from T7 doesn't actually matter against the VAST majority of weapons. Str3,4,5 & 8+ all still wound exactly the same as-if the Invictor was T7. The ONLY weapons this matters against are S6/7, and outside of Eldar and Plasma, I'm not fully aware of a ton of those weapons being spammable to threaten the Invictor.

Even Plasma will still WANT to supercharge for the D2, so again the T drop wouldn't matter. And against Eldar spamming S6, the Invictor has the ability to get close, something Eldar can ill-afford

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Also as it's over 10 wounds it has a degrading statline.
Afte 7 wounds it's hitting on 4+, after 10 wounds hitting on 5+ makes it was less scary.
It's better than standard codex dreadnaughts but they aren't exactly stellar performers either.

It's not that this is bad it's that a number of thing will enjoy having it as a target
Heavy burstcannon says hello, avenger cannons aswell.

Those have problems with T7+, in a pure Primaris army you have a point thus sucking up some flat 2D weapons isn't such a bad thing but I would just caution that using it to burn up a screening IS turn 1 isn't going to be good enough for the points if it's just flat dead by turn 2, IMHO.

 Roboute wrote:
I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).

I just placed an order for three HB Tarantulas :-)

 Galef wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
At T6 and no invuln they’re gonna pop like nobodies business

I'm still having a hard time understanding people's issue with T6. The drop from T7 doesn't actually matter against the VAST majority of weapons. Str3,4,5 & 8+ all still wound exactly the same as-if the Invictor was T7. The ONLY weapons this matters against are S6/7, and outside of Eldar and Plasma, I'm not fully aware of a ton of those weapons being spammable to threaten the Invictor.

Even Plasma will still WANT to supercharge for the D2, so again the T drop wouldn't matter. And against Eldar spamming S6, the Invictor has the ability to get close, something Eldar can ill-afford

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Theres a lot of high volume str 6 and 7. Tau and space marines probably do it best. That being said the t6 isn't a death sentence when you have 13 wounds.

tksolway wrote:

 Roboute wrote:
I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).

I just placed an order for three HB Tarantulas :-)

Even wasting the 111 points (37 ea, right?) seems like a lot for 2 CP when two batallions gets you 13 as it is. With Scryer's Gaze and Adept of the Codex you should be getting back one a turn at the least. Maybe you can make up for it if you don't want a Chaplain or Librarian, but a LT and Captain seems like the bare minimum you'd want...

 Xenomancers wrote:


Theres a lot of high volume str 6 and 7. Tau and space marines probably do it best. That being said the t6 isn't a death sentence when you have 13 wounds.

I'd agree, all of the heavy/elite infantry firepower every army takes is also able to efficiently would this new walker. That being said, it may be useful to try and exploit that by spamming heavy infantry. The walker may screen for your termies by merely existing.

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Its heavy flamer doesnt care too much about degrading and it is still fast when wounded.

And its not gonna kill a guard squad and then do nothing turn 1. It can deploy forward enough to kill a squad with shooting and then charge something juicy behind it or a second guard squad. If you have any more shooting and 3 of these dreads when its longside deployment I dont see how you dont get a nice charge off and kill most of their screens turn 1 if you go first. They need to have their own infiltrators that they set up before you deploy your dread to get around it since after your movement you will be 13" from the backside of their deployment on dawn of war before charging.

Getting a big warsuit alpha strike would be big, but if you want to win an RTT or GT, you have to build an army to go second. When designing an army now, I never ask "How much damage can I do turn 1 if I go first." That army will never go 3-0/6-0/9-0. Really the question should be, "Can I take minimal damage turn 1 if I go second." All of the harsh meta armies at the moment are extremely difficult to chew through for that reason and have melee bully units or unchargable units, and the warsuits cannot forward deploy and hide. If I were to take a warsuit, I almost would never forward deploy it because it just gives up free kill points if I go second or my opponent seizes on me.

 Crazyterran wrote:

Even wasting the 111 points (37 ea, right?) seems like a lot for 2 CP when two batallions gets you 13 as it is. With Scryer's Gaze and Adept of the Codex you should be getting back one a turn at the least. Maybe you can make up for it if you don't want a Chaplain or Librarian, but a LT and Captain seems like the bare minimum you'd want...

But not everyone plays Ultramarinse and some people would be taking some fast attack choices anyway.

HB Tarantulas are not a waste of points by any means. they're great backline screening units due to their special rules, and take buffs better than most due to their high rate of fire/low BS. I disagreed with someone on Dakka over them last year, and that made me give them another go. I now like them quite a lot.

 grouchoben wrote:
HB Tarantulas are not a waste of points by any means. they're great backline screening units due to their special rules, and take buffs better than most due to their high rate of fire/low BS. I disagreed with someone on Dakka over them last year, and that made me give them another go. I now like them quite a lot.

I'm going be aiming at that magic 20cp number in a bit. I ordered three HB Tarantulas to fill the FA slots, and I've always run a couple dev squads anyway, so I just need to find one more HS to slot in, and there are a lot of good options there.

My only real question is how to efficiently fill the 5 HQ slots. A Cap and a LT to babysit the dev squads, and depending on the elites I run either a techmarine or another cap for re-rolls.

The HQs tend to want to trap you with some heavy CC action, in an army that really lacks any decent CC backup. I'd love to run a Chaplin, Libby, and Captain to backup some Heavy Infantry like TH/SS Termies. But by the time you're done, it's 500 points that's going to end up surrounded, cut off, and destroyed.

I still think HB attack bikes are another tarantula alternative so you can get the mobility option, but yeah, the fact tarantulas get 2 HBs vs 1 and can’t be hugged is great for both blocking out your deployment zone and getting a cheaper brigade.

Either way sounds a lot better to me than people talking about taking empty drop pods for doing the exact same thing at higher cost.

bort wrote:
I still think HB attack bikes are another tarantula alternative so you can get the mobility option, but yeah, the fact tarantulas get 2 HBs vs 1 and can’t be hugged is great for both blocking out your deployment zone and getting a cheaper brigade.

Either way sounds a lot better to me than people talking about taking empty drop pods for doing the exact same thing at higher cost.

Empty Drop Pods arent even Fast Attack so they dont help out for CP anyways.


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tksolway wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
HB Tarantulas are not a waste of points by any means. they're great backline screening units due to their special rules, and take buffs better than most due to their high rate of fire/low BS. I disagreed with someone on Dakka over them last year, and that made me give them another go. I now like them quite a lot.

I'm going be aiming at that magic 20cp number in a bit. I ordered three HB Tarantulas to fill the FA slots, and I've always run a couple dev squads anyway, so I just need to find one more HS to slot in, and there are a lot of good options there.

My only real question is how to efficiently fill the 5 HQ slots. A Cap and a LT to babysit the dev squads, and depending on the elites I run either a techmarine or another cap for re-rolls.

The HQs tend to want to trap you with some heavy CC action, in an army that really lacks any decent CC backup. I'd love to run a Chaplin, Libby, and Captain to backup some Heavy Infantry like TH/SS Termies. But by the time you're done, it's 500 points that's going to end up surrounded, cut off, and destroyed.

If you play UM Chronus and Telion get you 2 HQ for about 100 points, iirc.

 Crazyterran wrote:

tksolway wrote:

 Roboute wrote:
I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).

I just placed an order for three HB Tarantulas :-)

Even wasting the 111 points (37 ea, right?) seems like a lot for 2 CP when two batallions gets you 13 as it is. With Scryer's Gaze and Adept of the Codex you should be getting back one a turn at the least. Maybe you can make up for it if you don't want a Chaplain or Librarian, but a LT and Captain seems like the bare minimum you'd want...

You need to factor in the need for a non useless 4th HQ for the second battalion.

I mean I agree, double battalion is normally the best way to go. But I take tarantulas not to fill out FA slots, but because they're very good in some lists. T5 4W 3+ is pretty nice and 18 HB shots for 111pts that can't be locked in cc is pretty good too. Your mileage will vary with list building though for sure...

 Insectum7 wrote:


If you play UM Chronus and Telion get you 2 HQ for about 100 points, iirc.

Smurfs get all the toys -- Iron Hands, been playing them since 2nd, going to have to append that now for the rest of this edition as my hands are going to be the bandwagon chapter :-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

X078 wrote:


You need to factor in the need for a non useless 4th HQ for the second battalion.

I don't think it's worth taking a single Brigade over two battalions. I think it's worth it when you take a Brigade and a Battalion for 20CP

I think a brigade could be pretty easy to achieve now. There are a lot of good units that don’t cost that much.

Suppressors and scout bikers are good fast attack units. Personally I think I’ll just go with 9 suppressors. They’re a great bit of shooting that comes in within the budget for a brigade unit.

In heavy support you have elininators, TFCs, stalkers, and actually quite a lot of things. Hellblasters probably won’t work - you can maybe afford some but they’ll be picked on. Decent for ravenguard or maybe iron hands.

In elites you’ve got the ancient, aggressors, invictors, apothecaries... and roughly half the rest of the Codex.

For characters I like my primaris captain with power fist. A lieutenant, chaplain and maybe librarian all look like good options. I think you probably want a Phobos character to access their Princeps of deceit trait.

Along with this at 2k you can afford 30-40 intercessors and a couple of 5-man infiltrator squads. You put something like 70 primaris bodies on the table with a lot of firepower and a surprising amount of melee power.

Incursors, to me, are interesting in that they let you do some nasty area denial with the Haywire Mines--and since it's not 1 per 5, you're kind of encouraged to run them as MSU.

I'm looking at a couple of boxes worth(three, maybe four tops) to go a little crazy with Incursors and converting my Shadowspear Infiltrators.

Is a laser-pred ok for anti-tank? I'm experimenting with a dedicated competitive list and was lacking anti-tank, so I was thinking of throwing in one of those. Have it sit back with Bobby G and such.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Incursors, to me, are interesting in that they let you do some nasty area denial with the Haywire Mines--and since it's not 1 per 5, you're kind of encouraged to run them as MSU.

I'm looking at a couple of boxes worth(three, maybe four tops) to go a little crazy with Incursors and converting my Shadowspear Infiltrators.

Incursors look like a ton of fun, and are quite cool looking from the couple pics in the codex! Any idea on a release date for them? I've heard nothing so far! :(

The Infiltrator/Incursor double kit, Eliminators, and the Impulsor Space El Camino for them are currently unannounced for release dates.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The Infiltrator/Incursor double kit, Eliminators, and the Impulsor Space El Camino for them are currently unannounced for release dates.

Shame.

I've been thinking of using an incursor squad or two infiltrating up with invuctus warsuits and a drop pod or two with full ten man squads of devs would be a super fun base for an army. The majority of the army would hit turn one, and if you don't think you could achieve first turn you don't have to put out int he middle with the butts hanging out in the wind- deploy them more carefuly.

It seems like a really fun and potentially hard hitting force. Bolters for regular dudes, grav and other heavy weapons for vehicles and heavy infantry, and semi-dreads for cc. Not to mention the incursors don't seem too bad in combat either!

Heafstaag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The Infiltrator/Incursor double kit, Eliminators, and the Impulsor Space El Camino for them are currently unannounced for release dates.

Shame.

I've been thinking of using an incursor squad or two infiltrating up with invuctus warsuits and a drop pod or two with full ten man squads of devs would be a super fun base for an army. The majority of the army would hit turn one, and if you don't think you could achieve first turn you don't have to put out int he middle with the butts hanging out in the wind- deploy them more carefuly.

It seems like a really fun and potentially hard hitting force. Bolters for regular dudes, grav and other heavy weapons for vehicles and heavy infantry, and semi-dreads for cc. Not to mention the incursors don't seem too bad in combat either!

no joke had the same thought last night. 2-3 incursor squads and 3 invictors backed up by a grav dev squad and 2-3 units of sterguard/company vets with plasma dropping down sounds like a fun army. Sprinkle in chars to taste and maybe some eliminators with las fusils or dreads with lascannons to chip wounds off tough stuff

I take batallions all the time but not because i feel i need to but because i actually want to run some of those units.

I live 3 man bike squads. 69 pts they put out 14 shots at 24" and move fast plus are t5 and 2w. Yep they do work. I will take 3 please.

Elites i like to take small 2 man vet teams with bolters and storm shields. 32 pts gets me a small team able to soak up overwatch pretty easily, cover area for deep strike deny, and take a hit for my hq when it needs to. They do work. Plus... 40k breachers....

I like our troop choices. Tacticals in drop pods, scouts zoneing out deep stike denial, and primaris walking up to solidify my position.

Our hqs are quite useful force multipliers now. Captains, leiutenants, and chaplin's now all have a good place, not to mention librarians.

And finally our heavy support has a lot of options depending on what your running. Need more anti infanty? Devistators/whirlwinds/thunderfire cannons. More anti tank? Devistators/predators/land raiders/repulsors. Need anti elite? Deviststors/hellblasters got you covered. I think i made my point lol.

My problem is i get everything i want in my list and am sitting on 220 odd points left to play with, not enough for a detachment but enough for some toys.

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Is a laser-pred ok for anti-tank? I'm experimenting with a dedicated competitive list and was lacking anti-tank, so I was thinking of throwing in one of those. Have it sit back with Bobby G and such.

It'll do but it's below par competitively. A contemptor mortis will do a much better job at a cheaper price, I'd throw one or two of those in instead if you're wanting to head in that direction...

Azuza001 wrote:
I take batallions all the time but not because i feel i need to but because i actually want to run some of those units.

I live 3 man bike squads. 69 pts they put out 14 shots at 24" and move fast plus are t5 and 2w. Yep they do work. I will take 3 please.

Elites i like to take small 2 man vet teams with bolters and storm shields. 32 pts gets me a small team able to soak up overwatch pretty easily, cover area for deep strike deny, and take a hit for my hq when it needs to. They do work. Plus... 40k breachers....

I like our troop choices. Tacticals in drop pods, scouts zoneing out deep stike denial, and primaris walking up to solidify my position.

Our hqs are quite useful force multipliers now. Captains, leiutenants, and chaplin's now all have a good place, not to mention librarians.

And finally our heavy support has a lot of options depending on what your running. Need more anti infanty? Devistators/whirlwinds/thunderfire cannons. More anti tank? Devistators/predators/land raiders/repulsors. Need anti elite? Deviststors/hellblasters got you covered. I think i made my point lol.

My problem is i get everything i want in my list and am sitting on 220 odd points left to play with, not enough for a detachment but enough for some toys.

Yeah, unlike before I feel like I have plenty of options to fill out brigade units...though I also feel like so so many good units are anti horde and my list is still light on heavy AT. -1AP buffs a lot of sweeper units, but doesn't help your hellblasters or lascannons vs things with invulnerables. I guess 3 Vindicators is a new option, but I'm hoping to avoid buying 3 more old style tanks.

220 odd points left, maybe upgrade something to a Leviathan Dread? We all know those are broken OP, right?