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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Every Chaos list I've built this edition has been Red Corsairs Battalion, or Red Corsairs Battalion + an Alpha Spearhead. The new system means more CP for me (unless Spearheads cost heaps of CP).

But here's a question I have: In this new system what is the purpose of a Brigade Detachment? About the only advantage to a Brigade that could see was that you got more from it than 2x Battalion. Now there's no inherent advantage over a Brigade that we can see so far, and it'll cost more CP to take.

So why take one?

More HQ slots available since they were about the best thing csm had?

Also rc are about the only csm faction that is not hit Hard but the lack of votwl has hurt concstantly..

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Every Chaos list I've built this edition has been Red Corsairs Battalion, or Red Corsairs Battalion + an Alpha Spearhead. The new system means more CP for me (unless Spearheads cost heaps of CP).

But here's a question I have: In this new system what is the purpose of a Brigade Detachment? About the only advantage to a Brigade that could see was that you got more from it than 2x Battalion. Now there's no inherent advantage over a Brigade that we can see so far, and it'll cost more CP to take.

So why take one?

Because it gives you more slots and if your warlord is in the brigade it nets to 0CP cost.

New system
Double Battalion costs -3CP
Brigade costs 0CP

The real issue is we have no idea how many CP the spearhead, outriders, vanguard, Super Heavy, Airwing, Supreme Command cost.

Looking from Guard perspective: for some builds it might be difficult to cram everything into battaillons. I have a quite infantry heavy list (not competetive, it's mostly what I like to build & paint) including 9 Infantry Squads and aim for 12. A Brigade could let me put them all in one Detachment.

Ya, I'm guessing Patrol will be 1CP, Spear/Rider/Van will be 2. Brigade would be 5. Sup/Aux/Air Might be 3 or 2.

 DominayTrix wrote:
This seems like it's going to take a pretty massive overhaul for strategem costs. 12 CP goes a lot farther for Knights/Marines/Custodes than it does Tau/Guard/orks..

It's almost like stripping out inherent unit/wargear abilities to make them stratagems and therefore limited in use while at the same time excluded from the balancing mechanic of points cost was terrible game design.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Every Chaos list I've built this edition has been Red Corsairs Battalion, or Red Corsairs Battalion + an Alpha Spearhead. The new system means more CP for me (unless Spearheads cost heaps of CP).

But here's a question I have: In this new system what is the purpose of a Brigade Detachment? About the only advantage to a Brigade that could see was that you got more from it than 2x Battalion. Now there's no inherent advantage over a Brigade that we can see so far, and it'll cost more CP to take.

So why take one?

Fitting more stuff into one detachment, of course. Might only be really relevant in 3k point games unless they change the requirements for a brigade; if they do, then those ork players upset that they need multiple battalions to fit all of their troops in would have a solution.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Every Chaos list I've built this edition has been Red Corsairs Battalion, or Red Corsairs Battalion + an Alpha Spearhead. The new system means more CP for me (unless Spearheads cost heaps of CP).

But here's a question I have: In this new system what is the purpose of a Brigade Detachment? About the only advantage to a Brigade that could see was that you got more from it than 2x Battalion. Now there's no inherent advantage over a Brigade that we can see so far, and it'll cost more CP to take.

So why take one?

If you take a Brigade have more slots without having to spend any CPs to get another detachment. 2 Battalions will cost you 3CPs since only the one with your Warlord refunds the CP cost.

Aash wrote:
If you take a Brigade have more slots without having to spend any CPs to get another detachment.

That's it? I've never found myself in need for all the extra slots that a Brigade offers, especially given the mandatory choices I'd have to make just to make it legal.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Aash wrote:
If you take a Brigade have more slots without having to spend any CPs to get another detachment.

That's it? I've never found myself in need for all the extra slots that a Brigade offers, especially given the mandatory choices I'd have to make just to make it legal.

I doubt I'll be using it personally, but I think the trade off for 3 CP will make it a consideration for some players.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Aash wrote:
If you take a Brigade have more slots without having to spend any CPs to get another detachment.

That's it? I've never found myself in need for all the extra slots that a Brigade offers, especially given the mandatory choices I'd have to make just to make it legal.

With orks 3x battallions usually means less "tax units" than a brigade but also +3CPs and mixed clans bonuses. No more of that I guess, but still a brigade is hard to field without investing tons of points in tax units.

Because a battalion is quite limited in what you can put inside it.

A marine may not notice it, but with Sisters and with nids I will surely default to a brigade. There is simply no way to fit an army into a battalion most of the times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There were even times where i had to play brigade + another detachment because the brigade didn't offer enough slots...

Spoletta wrote:
Because a battalion is quite limited in what you can put inside it.

A marine may not notice it, but with Sisters and with nids I will surely default to a brigade. There is simply no way to fit an army into a battalion most of the times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There were even times where i had to play brigade + another detachment because the brigade didn't offer enough slots...

Yeah... my sob list was Brigade + outrider.

3x Doms, 3x Seraphim, 3x Rets, 6x bbs, 3 canoness, celestine, priest, rep's.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 DominayTrix wrote:
This seems like it's going to take a pretty massive overhaul for strategem costs. 12 CP goes a lot farther for Knights/Marines/Custodes than it does Tau/Guard/orks..

Or csm....

Whats there to not Like about beeing for 2 turns your favourite Legion and afterwards generic splinter warband 10882749?
/S

Don't. Get me. Started.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

 DominayTrix wrote:
This seems like it's going to take a pretty massive overhaul for strategem costs. 12 CP goes a lot farther for Knights/Marines/Custodes than it does Tau/Guard/orks..

It's almost like stripping out inherent unit/wargear abilities to make them stratagems and therefore limited in use was terrible game design.

Right. If you want to play a ccg, go play a ccg. 40k is supposed to be a wargame. Soldiers don't need special orders from their CO to fire AA missiles at enemy aircraft.

New insight into Detachment limits on WC. Basically 1/2/3/4 detachments based on game size.

It will be interesting to see what they do with Drukhari and Chaos daemons based on these limitations. Their armies can't utilize both a mix of units and subfaction traits without serious codex errata at launch.

 alextroy wrote:
New insight into Detachment limits on WC. Basically 1/2/3/4 detachments based on game size.

It will be interesting to see what they do with Drukhari and Chaos daemons based on these limitations. Their armies can't utilize both a mix of units and subfaction traits without serious codex errata at launch.

Drukari actually can if Patrols are 2CP per detachment as the old raiding force rule they have would actually function now.
Choas well they are a mess.

GW is trying to rebalance soup choas as the current super soup is probably going to be struggling untill players adjust and points get adjusted as 9th editions balance is discovered.

I don't think a brigade will make sense for everyone, but certain factions tend to go heavy on certain unit types, like fast attack for necrons. They will have a choice of taking an outrider and a battalion which will cost CP, or squeeze it all into a brigade and not lose CP.

Others seem self explanatory, like if you want to bring a knight you have to dip into a super heavy detachment (which will probably get the same cost reduction if your warlord is a knight), or more than two flyers you'll dip into an air wing.

It will be interesting to see how common or uncommon soup is after the edition, I think we'll still see it, but it will be more purposeful, rather than just grabbing a CP battery.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Every Chaos list I've built this edition has been Red Corsairs Battalion, or Red Corsairs Battalion + an Alpha Spearhead. The new system means more CP for me (unless Spearheads cost heaps of CP).

But here's a question I have: In this new system what is the purpose of a Brigade Detachment? About the only advantage to a Brigade that could see was that you got more from it than 2x Battalion. Now there's no inherent advantage over a Brigade that we can see so far, and it'll cost more CP to take.

So why take one?

More slots at no cost.

Need 4 heavy slots? You COULD take two Bats 3 CP, OR, you could take a Brigade for free.

Need six Fast Attack? Same thing.

Brigades have huge upsides for some forces, like Orks, that they don't for others, like Marines.

That's not a great comparison (brigades expanding Fast Attack/Heavy slots). If you simply needed more Fast Attack slots than a battalion could give you, you'd have had the option to take an Outrider so you wouldn't have to pay a troops tax. Going to a Brigade or second Battalion requires more units of troops - there is a cost associated, unless you were already going to bring 6 units of troops.

It's the cost of the role-focused detachments that's really going to matter for most armies that don't want to take a giant pile of troops.

rbstr wrote:
That's not a great comparison (brigades expanding Fast Attack/Heavy slots). If you simply needed more Fast Attack slots than a battalion could give you, you'd have had the option to take an Outrider so you wouldn't have to pay a troops tax. Going to a Brigade or second Battalion requires more units of troops - there is a cost associated, unless you were already going to bring 6 units of troops.

It's the cost of the role-focused detachments that's really going to matter for most armies that don't want to take a giant pile of troops.

I'd rather pay the troop tax than pay CP for an extra detachment, but that fits my army.

The problem with any Outrider/ Vanguard/ Spearhead is that it only allows 2 of the specialist rules that aren't it's focus. So yeah, you can get 6 heavies in a spearhead, but only 2 of Elites and FA. Not only that, troops have value- obsec matters WAY more in progressive scoring; not only that, troops are now best suited to performing actions because the other specialists are better used to shoot and fight.

Some super elite armies (Looking at you Custodes) will struggle to kit out a Brigade. There might be dexes where there are no really outstanding units in the Elite, Fast Attack or Heavy categories, and if those components are regarded as "Tax" units, then yeah, a Brigade wouldn't be suitable for them either. But other than these rare exceptions, a brigade will be the best choice for most players at 2k points.

The troop tax is really worth it for the amount of slots of all types plus the CP refund. especially if your troops are just lean MSU.

Very interesting reveals. I was a little surprised about only the "core" detachments being essentially free for CPs if they have your Warlord, given they had been saying how Elite armies like Deathwing would enjoy the additional CPs in 9th. Guess we will have to see what Vanguards and Outriders will cost. I will happy to see Supreme Command detachments pay a heavy CP fee. Also interested to see if additional Codexes will cost extra CP or if that concept is simply baked into the Detachment cost and linked to the Warlord's detachment being "free?" So if your Warlord's Detachment is a Battalion of Cadians and you ally in a Battalion of Custodes then its 3 CP: same as a Battalion of Catachans or Scions?

Seems like a good system to me.

Brigade appears optimal - but yes, tax units may be an issue.
Double Bat may be more flexible and probably allows alternate chapter tactics and all the associated unlocks, but you get 3 less CP. Tbf it was more common than a brigade when you get 2 CP less, so... whether this will change is unclear.

I guess we need to see the price - but the big losers are probably the 1 CP detachments right now. If say they cost 1 CP, you are effectively 2 CP down for the privilege of not sticking them in your main detachment. On the other hand if they were 1 CP, nothing would seem to stop you going "3 spearheads pls" and you'd have more CP than the double battalion. Which... feels a bit weird.

There was some suggestion that soup will cost CP - but whether that's just due to the detachment system, or something additional, I don't think has been clarified.

Ice_can wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
New insight into Detachment limits on WC. Basically 1/2/3/4 detachments based on game size.

It will be interesting to see what they do with Drukhari and Chaos daemons based on these limitations. Their armies can't utilize both a mix of units and subfaction traits without serious codex errata at launch.

Drukari actually can if Patrols are 2CP per detachment as the old raiding force rule they have would actually function now.
Choas well they are a mess.

GW is trying to rebalance soup choas as the current super soup is probably going to be struggling untill players adjust and points get adjusted as 9th editions balance is discovered.

The problem with lower detachments and DE is, we have an additional restriction that only Chaos has to limit what we can take. In a 1k game without losing our rules you literally have to cut 1/4 the book away as options.

Ice_can wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
New insight into Detachment limits on WC. Basically 1/2/3/4 detachments based on game size.

It will be interesting to see what they do with Drukhari and Chaos daemons based on these limitations. Their armies can't utilize both a mix of units and subfaction traits without serious codex errata at launch.

Drukari actually can if Patrols are 2CP per detachment as the old raiding force rule they have would actually function now.
Choas well they are a mess.

GW is trying to rebalance soup choas as the current super soup is probably going to be struggling untill players adjust and points get adjusted as 9th editions balance is discovered.

1 Detachment in Combat Patrol means either you go Kabal, Cult, or Coven unless you want to give up your sub-faction trait. Same thing for Chaos Daemons. One God or no Locus for you.

Incursion allows two detachments, but that's not enough for the current Raiding Party rule for Drukhari. CD are still limited to half the codex and a CP penalty if they want a Locus for two different gods.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Every Chaos list I've built this edition has been Red Corsairs Battalion, or Red Corsairs Battalion + an Alpha Spearhead. The new system means more CP for me (unless Spearheads cost heaps of CP).

But here's a question I have: In this new system what is the purpose of a Brigade Detachment? About the only advantage to a Brigade that could see was that you got more from it than 2x Battalion. Now there's no inherent advantage over a Brigade that we can see so far, and it'll cost more CP to take.

So why take one?

More HQ slots available since they were about the best thing csm had?

Also rc are about the only csm faction that is not hit Hard but the lack of votwl has hurt concstantly..

Why would it cost more CP? Realistically it should cost less. In fact, the battalion should definitely the most expensive detachment outside of superheavies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Seems like a good system to me.

Brigade appears optimal - but yes, tax units may be an issue.
Double Bat may be more flexible and probably allows alternate chapter tactics and all the associated unlocks, but you get 3 less CP. Tbf it was more common than a brigade when you get 2 CP less, so... whether this will change is unclear.

I guess we need to see the price - but the big losers are probably the 1 CP detachments right now. If say they cost 1 CP, you are effectively 2 CP down for the privilege of not sticking them in your main detachment. On the other hand if they were 1 CP, nothing would seem to stop you going "3 spearheads pls" and you'd have more CP than the double battalion. Which... feels a bit weird.

There was some suggestion that soup will cost CP - but whether that's just due to the detachment system, or something additional, I don't think has been clarified.

You'd have the same CP as the double battalion.

Why would you want a double battalion though? You'd just take a battalion and a vanguard/spearhead/etc. That should give you all the slots you need for 2 cp less. Double battalion will likely never see the light of day again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

rbstr wrote:
That's not a great comparison (brigades expanding Fast Attack/Heavy slots). If you simply needed more Fast Attack slots than a battalion could give you, you'd have had the option to take an Outrider so you wouldn't have to pay a troops tax. Going to a Brigade or second Battalion requires more units of troops - there is a cost associated, unless you were already going to bring 6 units of troops.

It's the cost of the role-focused detachments that's really going to matter for most armies that don't want to take a giant pile of troops.

I'd rather pay the troop tax than pay CP for an extra detachment, but that fits my army.

The problem with any Outrider/ Vanguard/ Spearhead is that it only allows 2 of the specialist rules that aren't it's focus. So yeah, you can get 6 heavies in a spearhead, but only 2 of Elites and FA. Not only that, troops have value- obsec matters WAY more in progressive scoring; not only that, troops are now best suited to performing actions because the other specialists are better used to shoot and fight.

Some super elite armies (Looking at you Custodes) will struggle to kit out a Brigade. There might be dexes where there are no really outstanding units in the Elite, Fast Attack or Heavy categories, and if those components are regarded as "Tax" units, then yeah, a Brigade wouldn't be suitable for them either. But other than these rare exceptions, a brigade will be the best choice for most players at 2k points.

The troop tax is really worth it for the amount of slots of all types plus the CP refund. especially if your troops are just lean MSU.

You have access to a very similar number of slots in a battalion as a brigade, you just have less that are mandatory.

The only way you'd realistically take a brigade over a battalion+something is if you DIDN'T want your warlord in your big detachment or you had an extremely goofy slot requirement (4 Fa, 4 Elites, and 5HS or similar) that didn't want to take advantage of multiple CTs.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 DominayTrix wrote:
This seems like it's going to take a pretty massive overhaul for strategem costs. 12 CP goes a lot farther for Knights/Marines/Custodes than it does Tau/Guard/orks..

It's almost like stripping out inherent unit/wargear abilities to make them stratagems and therefore limited in use while at the same time excluded from the balancing mechanic of points cost was terrible game design.

It wouldn't have been that bad if all armies followed the same paradigma of design. It is hard to compare some codex, when they feel as if they were writen for not just different editions, but different games.

I mean imagine if DW special ammo was a stratagem, or being Inari ment that you were an eldar veteran unit, and had to pay between 1-3CP for getting the trait.

Someone mentioned to me that one of the casts said there would be some special assistance for Dark Eldar - which is vital if they are not to be hit hard due to the near unique restrictions on their codex.

With the very limited information it does seem a huge boost to Knights and Custodes adn somewhat to Marines with the opposite true for many others.

IMO the best way to fix it, would be to give all factions a set of their own detachments. GW could balance stuff easier that way too, and entice people to play in specific ways. Soup would still be a thing, but it would have a cost. Mono would be less flexible, but if you picked a siege detachment it would be good at siege, and not a RG army with teleporting centurions or aggressors.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Someone mentioned to me that one of the casts said there would be some special assistance for Dark Eldar - which is vital if they are not to be hit hard due to the near unique restrictions on their codex.

With the very limited information it does seem a huge boost to Knights and Custodes adn somewhat to Marines with the opposite true for many others.

To be honest Drukhari are among the factions that don't really need tons of CPs and not many players field the three subfactions (kabal+coven+wych cult) all together anyway. For example a typical Black Heart or Flayed Skull Battallion plus a Prophets of Flesh Battallion is 9+6CPs which is basically what they get now and enought to play at competitive levels. Ok, the competitive Black Heart Spearhead+Flayed Skull Battallion+PoF Battallion/Spearhead combo will disappear but I don't think Drukhari are going to be hurt that much by the new system, even without some specific rules that help them bringing multiple detachments.

Only people who want all three kinds of subfactions may be hurt but honestly if you want 2 different kinds of kabal traits and a coven one that's souping and I'm glad that soups are getting nerfed. Merging the units into a single kabal detachment won't break those lists anyway.

Doesn't the cancel thing cost like 4CP or something crazy like that? with 2 extra detachments they would be at 12-6, that is enough to use one cancel and have 2+1 CP on turn one onwards to do stuff. That is really not much. They wouldn't even be able to cancel stuff two turns back to back.

 Blackie wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Someone mentioned to me that one of the casts said there would be some special assistance for Dark Eldar - which is vital if they are not to be hit hard due to the near unique restrictions on their codex.

With the very limited information it does seem a huge boost to Knights and Custodes adn somewhat to Marines with the opposite true for many others.

To be honest Drukhari are among the factions that don't really need tons of CPs and not many players field the three subfactions (kabal+coven+wych cult) all together anyway. For example a typical Black Heart or Flayed Skull Battallion plus a Prophets of Flesh Battallion is 9+6CPs which is basically what they get now and enought to play at competitive levels. Ok, the competitive Black Heart Spearhead+Flayed Skull Battallion+PoF Battallion/Spearhead combo will disappear but I don't think Drukhari are going to be hurt that much by the new system, even without some specific rules that help them bringing multiple detachments.

Only people who want all three kinds of subfactions may be hurt but honestly if you want 2 different kinds of kabal traits and a coven one that's souping and I'm glad that soups are getting nerfed. Merging the units into a single kabal detachment won't break those lists anyway.

You mean the three detachment force that is part of the lore and point of the Codex, that is suggetsed and suported by rules and lore......yeah that one.

Its not like Marines and Loyal 32 or Knights and Loyal 32 which all got their boost so they don't need it having more CPs than the DE trying to play a single codex army.

Now if you have to say pay for using different companies in a Marine force then it would be the same.

However luckily it sounds like they have recognised this disparity and hopefully catered for it.