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Spoiler:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
If people here are so 'casual' why do they care if they play nothing but WAAC tournament grinders? If you care enough to set up a crusade campaign or a narrative game that isn't exactly casual.

Because others influence the experience of a game you muppet. If I have a limited amount of time to play 40k, I'd rather not face some try hard with their meta-web-list turning a 2-3 hour afternoon into an hour of me going "Why the am I even here".
And you keep mistaking casual with apathy. Casual gaming isn't "I don't care what happens nothing matters", it's "As long as I had an enjoyable experience, winning is optional" or "I am going to try and play this game narratively in character with the army I play".



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Karol wrote:

It doesn't have to be olympics. And by the way, people do the same thing to each other without scholarships. All it takes is for two streets or blocks to play against each other, specially when people are watching or when people just plain don't like each other. Yes scholarship examples are the easiest for me to think about, because this is my daily life. What kind of a example do you want me to give, that people at work do the same stuff to each other, that siblings do it to get inheritance etc. Doesn't mean that stuff can't be enjoyable. Also the prerequisit of having friends to play w40k is another one of those bizzar ones for me, that come along with the gigantic multi army collections, own houses to play games and cars to transport those collections so you can pre build armies on the spot. w40k cost a ton of money, a lot of people don't even finish getting an army, because the struggle is so hard and the nerfs to armies, so big. Nothing which is that expensive can be considered casual.


Also if you think the results are unimportant, buy and build an army and then lose every game with it for 3 years, while seeing it nerfed over and over again. While watching other people who bought stuff like tablets or bikes with their money, have fun on a daily basis. Do it for 3 years and we can talk about mutally enjoyable activities.

You're turning playing 40k in a non-competitive way into some kind of class struggle. You seem fully incapable of thinking outside of your own limited experiences and accepting that people do things differently from you. The only time I got Warhammer stuff as a young un' was at birthdays or Xmas, compared to most of the people I played with who could just ask their parents to get them new stuff. As an adult, I try to get the most out of my purchases so I don't accidentally spend rent or food money on Warhammer. My family wasn't going to food banks or on benefits, they just wanted me to build/paint the stuff I already had.
As for playing armies that only lose, do you mean something like CSM through 6th to 7th or Orks through 5th to 7th? If you weren't running summoning engines or Mega Armoured Nob lists then you weren't winning.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/07 20:52:23


 
   
Made in us
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San Jose, CA

I mowed lawns for 18mo to buy my squats and they got squatted.
Didn't buy/play for 25yrs until I could afford it and had time to devote to it.
I play the game seriously, not about winning, but about cinematic events unfolding.

Karol, don't worry your GK will be OP soon enuff and you can rolfstomp those jerks at your local shop to your hearts content. Which seems to be what you/your meta like. Enjoy
   
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In My Lab

If you don’t have fun, why play?

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 JNAProductions wrote:
If you don’t have fun, why play?


Because some people don't have the luxury of pick up games or multiple gaming groups and the group they DO have is difficult/impossible to convince to play anything else. My group played nothing but 8th from its release and towards the end and into 9th I was bored of it. The rules didn't excite me and changes to armies were to frequent and hard to keep track of and the monetary cost was getting too high and 9th added in a bunch of book keeping to a game that already has a good amount of book keeping. It felt like a chore to play but most of the people in my group don't want to play anything else. And its not like they don't have the option. I have a good sized board game collection and multiple other minis games and multiple factions for each so playing other games requires no financial investment on their part or even really learning rules since I already know how to play all my games. But aside from one other member of the group everyone else only wants to play 40k (or derivatives of it) so my choice is currently 40k or nothing.


 
   
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 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
If people here are so 'casual' why do they care if they play nothing but WAAC tournament grinders? If you care enough to set up a crusade campaign or a narrative game that isn't exactly casual.

Because others influence the experience of a game you muppet. If I have a limited amount of time to play 40k, I'd rather not face some try hard with their meta-web-list turning a 2-3 hour afternoon into an hour of me going "Why the am I even here".
And you keep mistaking casual with apathy. Casual gaming isn't "I don't care what happens nothing matters", it's "As long as I had an enjoyable experience, winning is optional" or "I am going to try and play this game narratively in character with the army I play".



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Karol wrote:

It doesn't have to be olympics. And by the way, people do the same thing to each other without scholarships. All it takes is for two streets or blocks to play against each other, specially when people are watching or when people just plain don't like each other. Yes scholarship examples are the easiest for me to think about, because this is my daily life. What kind of a example do you want me to give, that people at work do the same stuff to each other, that siblings do it to get inheritance etc. Doesn't mean that stuff can't be enjoyable. Also the prerequisit of having friends to play w40k is another one of those bizzar ones for me, that come along with the gigantic multi army collections, own houses to play games and cars to transport those collections so you can pre build armies on the spot. w40k cost a ton of money, a lot of people don't even finish getting an army, because the struggle is so hard and the nerfs to armies, so big. Nothing which is that expensive can be considered casual.


Also if you think the results are unimportant, buy and build an army and then lose every game with it for 3 years, while seeing it nerfed over and over again. While watching other people who bought stuff like tablets or bikes with their money, have fun on a daily basis. Do it for 3 years and we can talk about mutally enjoyable activities.

You're turning playing 40k in a non-competitive way into some kind of class struggle. You seem fully incapable of thinking outside of your own limited experiences and accepting that people do things differently from you. The only time I got Warhammer stuff as a young un' was at birthdays or Xmas, compared to most of the people I played with who could just ask their parents to get them new stuff. As an adult, I try to get the most out of my purchases so I don't accidentally spend rent or food money on Warhammer. My family wasn't going to food banks or on benefits, they just wanted me to build/paint the stuff I already had.
As for playing armies that only lose, do you mean something like CSM through 6th to 7th or Orks through 5th to 7th? If you weren't running summoning engines or Mega Armoured Nob lists then you weren't winning.
I'd say you've thoroughly put my perspective into words.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
If you don’t have fun, why play?


Because some people don't have the luxury of pick up games or multiple gaming groups and the group they DO have is difficult/impossible to convince to play anything else. My group played nothing but 8th from its release and towards the end and into 9th I was bored of it. The rules didn't excite me and changes to armies were to frequent and hard to keep track of and the monetary cost was getting too high and 9th added in a bunch of book keeping to a game that already has a good amount of book keeping. It felt like a chore to play but most of the people in my group don't want to play anything else. And its not like they don't have the option. I have a good sized board game collection and multiple other minis games and multiple factions for each so playing other games requires no financial investment on their part or even really learning rules since I already know how to play all my games. But aside from one other member of the group everyone else only wants to play 40k (or derivatives of it) so my choice is currently 40k or nothing.


Yes, 40k as a wargame has this particular problem where people play 40k, because people play 40k, and people play 40k because people play it. You have to make a concerted personal effort to shift the local community into trying other things. This typically requires a monetary, time, and effort investment and often will ultimately not net you the result you're looking for unless you persist. There is always the argument that someone should just quit and invest their time and mental energy into something that makes them happy. You're correct in that statement, but ultimately telling people to quit does not solve the underlying problem. I've personally quit 40k as a game, but i'd very much like it if GW fixed the grossly apparent problems with their core design philosophy.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/07 23:22:27


 
   
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But if it’s not fun, then DON’T play.

Not just “don’t play 40k,” don’t play at all.

It’s not a job. It’s not school. It’s a hobby.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
But if it’s not fun, then DON’T play.

Not just “don’t play 40k,” don’t play at all.

It’s not a job. It’s not school. It’s a hobby.
Ultimately is that good for the game, the player base or the community? You're just shutting out potential people from playing and engaging with you rather than fixing the underlying problems.
   
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Karol’s community is not a healthy one. It’s not worth maintaining.

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I mean "don't PLAY 40k" works fine as a sentiment. Focus on the hobby aspect if that makes you happier. Or play the bazillion video games associated with it.
TBH I cannot imagine a community where literally every single player is the opposite of what you want to play against. It can be hard but I've found that SOME FB groups can be useful for finding local clubs to join. Of course playing with friends is easier and making new ones difficult. Sadly not all the options work for peeps.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/07 23:29:47


 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
Karol’s community is not a healthy one. It’s not worth maintaining.


Yes, you can be correct certain communities can be toxic and unfriendly outside of the bounds of what the rules of play necessitate. I know, because I used to play Airsoft a decade ago and that became very unfun, very quickly due to the community.

Obviously I have no data, or anything to really back up my assertion, but I'd argue in the realm of 40k, that the rules themselves are a large reason as to why players gravitate toward certain tendencies. Design the rules with a thorough acknowledgement and understanding of how people interact with your rule set in a social environment and create contingencies for meta gaming, and list building behavior.

Historicals don't have these problems to the same degee.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/07 23:38:01


 
   
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Yeah, they do. Week one of my group starting Bolt Action two out of five were spending hours trying to make the gamiest lists they could possibly take, despite them being painfully un-historical. Compare this to me and another guy who were building DAK and 8th Army forces and were restricted to certain units and upgrades because history is fun. People who are competitive naturally aren't going to stop being competitive because the rules cater to casual players, they just find a way around it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/07 23:41:27


 
   
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 Gert wrote:
Yeah, they do. Week one of my group starting Bolt Action two out of five were spending hours trying to make the gamiest lists they could possibly take, despite them being painfully un-historical. People who are competitive naturally aren't going to stop being competitive because the rules cater to casual players, they just find a way around it.
Yes, that's my argument! And Bolt Action does a poor job in that department, i've seen this discussed in many places for Bolt Action in particular.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/07 23:41:53


 
   
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 Sledgehammer wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Karol’s community is not a healthy one. It’s not worth maintaining.


Yes, you can be correct certain communities can be toxic and unfriendly outside of the bounds of what the rules of play necessitate. I know, because I used to play Airsoft a decade ago and that became very unfun, very quickly due to the community.

Obviously I have no data, or anything to really back up my assertion, but I'd argue in the realm of 40k, that the rules themselves are a large reason as to why players gravitate toward certain tendencies. Design the rules with a thorough acknowledgement and understanding of how people interact with your rule set in a social environment and create contingencies for meta gaming, and list building behavior.

Historicals don't have these problems to the same degee.


Played Flames of War? Or Bolt Action? I wouldn't call those communities toxic, but there is certainly meta gaming and "list building behaviour."

If you don't like "meta gaming" and "list building behaviour" then, perhaps, avoid games that feature list building? Games that allow players some choice in their force are popular, because, people like having choice. Doesn't mean that you have to like it or participate. Playing among friends with common expectations is one way to mitigate the list building that you do not like.

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TangoTwoBravo wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Karol’s community is not a healthy one. It’s not worth maintaining.


Yes, you can be correct certain communities can be toxic and unfriendly outside of the bounds of what the rules of play necessitate. I know, because I used to play Airsoft a decade ago and that became very unfun, very quickly due to the community.

Obviously I have no data, or anything to really back up my assertion, but I'd argue in the realm of 40k, that the rules themselves are a large reason as to why players gravitate toward certain tendencies. Design the rules with a thorough acknowledgement and understanding of how people interact with your rule set in a social environment and create contingencies for meta gaming, and list building behavior.

Historicals don't have these problems to the same degee.


Played Flames of War? Or Bolt Action? I wouldn't call those communities toxic, but there is certainly meta gaming and "list building behaviour."

If you don't like "meta gaming" and "list building behaviour" then, perhaps, avoid games that feature list building? Games that allow players some choice in their force are popular, because, people like having choice. Doesn't mean that you have to like it or participate. Playing among friends with common expectations is one way to mitigate the list building that you do not like.
You're right, games with the ability to choose your list, will always have list building and meta gaming, but I'd take the list building meta of Bolt Action over 40k's any day of the week because the game is functionally designed more around it's in game mechanics than it's list building ones. At this point it gets VERY hard to start pinning down the HOW and the WHY of that, but again it has to do with the philosophy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/08 00:51:15


 
   
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I think you're talking yourself into a corner. 'The philosophy?' Whose? Which 'one?' If you're starting point is you have no data or reason for your assertion, you probably shouldn't be making it. At the very least, it definitely shouldn't be so absolutist.

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Voss wrote:
I think you're talking yourself into a corner. 'The philosophy?' Whose? Which 'one?' If you're starting point is you have no data or reason for your assertion, you probably shouldn't be making it. At the very least, it definitely shouldn't be so absolutist.
I don't think anyone here is making any kind of point on this website that has substantial peer reviewed and vetted data nor am I making an absolutist claim. Every opinion here has been conjecture, and should be treated as such.

The point that I'm making is that game systems that focus on in game modifiers for power like flanking, positional play, etc, and that leave the wombo combo special rules interactions (like unit based auras, stratagems, and army specific rules (In 40k the problem is really that all three exist in such large quantities)) behind tend to either cater to an audience that isn't as interested in building lists to win, or creates a system where those rules are not as big of a determinate on victory. Which in turn leads to a game system, or naturally occurring community, where people don't feel like they have to sacrifice their intended army of play to either win, or accommodate a player with a "non meta" army.

Games that do this better, not perfectly, but better mind you, are the Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game, Epic Armageddon, and Conquest.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/08 03:42:34


 
   
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{sigh...}
Karol wrote:
Also the prerequisit of having friends to play w40k is another one of those bizzar ones for me,


It's not a prerequisite. It just helps immensely. Because you & friends can alter the game in whatever ways you agree on in order to to have more fun.


Karol wrote:
that come along with the gigantic multi army collections,


Most of us that have gigantic multi-army collections have been doing this for years. And have (or had) jobs/incomes that allowed it.


Karol wrote:
own houses to play games and cars to transport those collections so you can pre build armies on the spot.

No. Just no.
I do not own a house so that I can play games. I own a house to live in it. The perks of owning a house where I do is a combination of cost of living, nearness to family/friends, like the area/community, and a non-terrible commute distance. Oh yeah, it also has enough space to hold all my crap & allow me to host games for a select invite list.

The car....
I own a car because it's practically a necessity. There is no viable public transportation where I live. Walking, though certainly the healthy option, would be far too slow. Biking is also too limited. The days of horse & buggy are about a century past (and I have no real means to care for a horse). Thus I need a car.
Yes, I can haul a case of 40k minis about in the trunk. No, that has never been a primary concern when choosing the next car.

Making armies on the spot: Yes, to some degree. Each army has a dedicated case {a BattleFoam PACK 720 to be exact) & holds between 3k-5k pts worth of stuff. So if I take my Necrons to the shop, yes, I have options as far as list building.
BTW, I choose to limit the armies to fitting in PACK 720 cases because that's what fits in my cars trunk.


Karol wrote:
w40k cost a ton of money, a lot of people don't even finish getting an army, because the struggle is so hard and the nerfs to armies, so big. Nothing which is that expensive can be considered casual.


Really? I have a TV on my wall that costs as much as a 40k army. As I'm not a TV/Movie critic, I don't think there's any way to define me sitting on my couch & watching NetFlix as anything but casual.
Likewise, I've got a slightly out of date x-box & about a dozen games - about the same invested as in a 40k army. Nothing but casual involved.



   
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ccs wrote:
I do not own a house so that I can play games. I own a house to live in it. The perks of owning a house where I do is a combination of cost of living, nearness to family/friends, like the area/community, and a non-terrible commute distance. Oh yeah, it also has enough space to hold all my crap & allow me to host games for a select invite list.

I live in a city where a 'cheap' home starts at $1,000,000 and where rent tends to start at $1,500 for a single bedroom dump and rises rapidly from there. Owning a home is beyond most people here so consider yourself lucky.

The car....
I own a car because it's practically a necessity. There is no viable public transportation where I live. Walking, though certainly the healthy option, would be far too slow. Biking is also too limited. The days of horse & buggy are about a century past (and I have no real means to care for a horse). Thus I need a car.

The use public transit system is a mess, but this is less true in Canada and Europe so many people my age and younger don't own cars. Thus making 40k even more difficult to play.

Really? I have a TV on my wall that costs as much as a 40k army.

A multi-hundred dollar TV is again difficult for a lot of people to afford without saving for it. Consider yourself lucky that you can likely afford to replace it if it breaks and never worry about paying for netflix and internet access, not everybody is so fortunate.
   
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C5th has some fair points here and it is not entirely fair to dismiss Karol's experience (or anyone who can just about afford to experience the hobby in some way). That said as I stated previously I think it important to remind Karol that life and people are not always so bloody awful, his posts actually concern me at times.

And no this is not just a cultural "Poland" thing. I've lived and spent a lot of time in central and eastern Europe including Poland. I've a Russian parent and a Romanian parent so am relatively keyed in to the different cultures of the areas.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/08 07:13:58


 
   
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 Canadian 5th wrote:
ccs wrote:
I do not own a house so that I can play games. I own a house to live in it. The perks of owning a house where I do is a combination of cost of living, nearness to family/friends, like the area/community, and a non-terrible commute distance. Oh yeah, it also has enough space to hold all my crap & allow me to host games for a select invite list.

I live in a city where a 'cheap' home starts at $1,000,000 and where rent tends to start at $1,500 for a single bedroom dump and rises rapidly from there. Owning a home is beyond most people here so consider yourself lucky.

The car....
I own a car because it's practically a necessity. There is no viable public transportation where I live. Walking, though certainly the healthy option, would be far too slow. Biking is also too limited. The days of horse & buggy are about a century past (and I have no real means to care for a horse). Thus I need a car.

The use public transit system is a mess, but this is less true in Canada and Europe so many people my age and younger don't own cars. Thus making 40k even more difficult to play.

Really? I have a TV on my wall that costs as much as a 40k army.

A multi-hundred dollar TV is again difficult for a lot of people to afford without saving for it. Consider yourself lucky that you can likely afford to replace it if it breaks and never worry about paying for netflix and internet access, not everybody is so fortunate.


The housing situation sounds like here, you in BC?

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Spoiler:
Dai wrote:
C5th has some fair points here and it is not entirely fair to dismiss Karol's experience (or anyone who can just about afford to experience the hobby in some way). That said as I stated previously I think it important to remind Karol that life and people are not always so bloody awful, his posts actually concern me at times.

And no this is not just a cultural "Poland" thing. I've lived and spent a lot of time in central and eastern Europe including Poland. I've a Russian parent and a Romanian parent so am relatively keyed in to the different cultures of the areas.

The only people dismissing others experiences are Karol and Canadian. Both have fully ignored others who have given their views and decided only their opinions matter for some reason.
   
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 Canadian 5th wrote:
If people here are so 'casual' why do they care if they play nothing but WAAC tournament grinders? If you care enough to set up a crusade campaign or a narrative game that isn't exactly casual.


Be casual is more about having fun with the other person, talking, hanging out, throwing dice. I don't want to set up my minis for 2 turns and get tabled without any fun play. Thats like playing pool with friends and having a drink then some pro comes up and hits 4 to 1 balls in each round and talking or drinking, yeah thats not why me and my friends are there.

It seems like you are trying really are to push a narrative, at this point I truly believe you are trolling or trying to start arguments on purpose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/08 12:01:50


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Canadian 5th wrote:If people here are so 'casual' why do they care if they play nothing but WAAC tournament grinders? If you care enough to set up a crusade campaign or a narrative game that isn't exactly casual.
Because WAAC tournament grinders aren't casual. It's like you've not been reading what people are defining the "casual" experience as, and are battling your own made-up definition.

JNAProductions wrote:If you don’t have fun, why play?
Exactly.

Dai wrote:C5th has some fair points here and it is not entirely fair to dismiss Karol's experience (or anyone who can just about afford to experience the hobby in some way). That said as I stated previously I think it important to remind Karol that life and people are not always so bloody awful, his posts actually concern me at times.
Yes, agreed - but I don't see anyone entirely dismissing Karol's experience. People are (quite rightly) reminding Karol that their claims about how humans are all inherently evil and everyone's out to disadvantage you and there's no such thing as good in the world are not universal. Karol's experiences are definitely not to be ignored, but they do not apply to everyone, in the same way that other people's experiences don't necessarily apply to Karol.

As Gert says,
Gert wrote:The only people dismissing others experiences are Karol and Canadian. Both have fully ignored others who have given their views and decided only their opinions matter for some reason.
- which is something I also say to be accurate.

Karol's experiences are valid, but not universal. Canadian's ways of enjoying themselves are valid, but not universal. Neither of the two seem to be able to understand that, and are insistent on devaluing the valid experiences of others.



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It is because there is no "common language" to casual play.

The core rules are a shared and understood lens through which to converse about the game, it requires no pre-ambling or contextualizing. The "objective" of the game mechanically, winning, is an easy concept to discuss and the natural path of least resistance will lead to discussing how best to win overtime.

Anything else requires a conversation of context-setting and explicit premises. Which is small friction, but enough to make casual play an uncommon subject amongst strangers on the internet when compared to competitive play.

 
   
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Canada

Las,

Agreed. I've said before that 40K is a "lingua franca" or common tongue among tabletop wargamers. Matched play with Battleforged lists means that two strangers can have a good gaming experience without tons of pre-game negotiation. And if they do need to negotiate at least they are doing it from a mutually understood starting point. "You cool with Lords of War? You OK with Forge World?" etc.

I think that "casual" could mean not terribly invested in winning. Doesn't mean you are playing to lose, but you aren't poring over the books trying to squeeze every ounce of tabletop efficiency out of your list.

I find that people in my area tend to show up with a pick-up game with a list tuned to about 70%. They might be trying out a theme but still have a solid core of effectiveness. They would come to a tourney with a list tuned to 90%. If I am playing a stranger I will not bust out the "A List."

Issues arise when one player comes to a pick-up game with a list tuned to 100% against somebody who has recreated a list from their Badaab War (whatever that is, but I see people write about it) fan fiction tuned to about 40% effectiveness but 100% fan fiction attention to detail. Pick-up game culture is not fantastically conducive to hard-core narrative play, and folks who only bring LVO-winning lists will also end being a little unsatisfied (or without opponents).

And that's OK. They'll just have to communicate with opponents before game to find folks with a common understanding of the gaming experience. But the majority seem to get by just fine. Maybe I am mirror-imaging, but I also think that people are capable of being "casual" in one gaming situation and "competitive" in another.

I understand that some local situations may not be as pleasant or flexible as mine.

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 Blndmage wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
ccs wrote:
I do not own a house so that I can play games. I own a house to live in it. The perks of owning a house where I do is a combination of cost of living, nearness to family/friends, like the area/community, and a non-terrible commute distance. Oh yeah, it also has enough space to hold all my crap & allow me to host games for a select invite list.

I live in a city where a 'cheap' home starts at $1,000,000 and where rent tends to start at $1,500 for a single bedroom dump and rises rapidly from there. Owning a home is beyond most people here so consider yourself lucky.

The car....
I own a car because it's practically a necessity. There is no viable public transportation where I live. Walking, though certainly the healthy option, would be far too slow. Biking is also too limited. The days of horse & buggy are about a century past (and I have no real means to care for a horse). Thus I need a car.

The use public transit system is a mess, but this is less true in Canada and Europe so many people my age and younger don't own cars. Thus making 40k even more difficult to play.

Really? I have a TV on my wall that costs as much as a 40k army.

A multi-hundred dollar TV is again difficult for a lot of people to afford without saving for it. Consider yourself lucky that you can likely afford to replace it if it breaks and never worry about paying for netflix and internet access, not everybody is so fortunate.


The housing situation sounds like here, you in BC?

Nailed it in 1. Moved from Kelowna to Vancouver a few years ago and both are too expensive to live in. Any other "city" is too small to have jobs or is just as expensive.
   
Made in ca
Deranged Necron Destroyer






 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
ccs wrote:
I do not own a house so that I can play games. I own a house to live in it. The perks of owning a house where I do is a combination of cost of living, nearness to family/friends, like the area/community, and a non-terrible commute distance. Oh yeah, it also has enough space to hold all my crap & allow me to host games for a select invite list.

I live in a city where a 'cheap' home starts at $1,000,000 and where rent tends to start at $1,500 for a single bedroom dump and rises rapidly from there. Owning a home is beyond most people here so consider yourself lucky.

The car....
I own a car because it's practically a necessity. There is no viable public transportation where I live. Walking, though certainly the healthy option, would be far too slow. Biking is also too limited. The days of horse & buggy are about a century past (and I have no real means to care for a horse). Thus I need a car.

The use public transit system is a mess, but this is less true in Canada and Europe so many people my age and younger don't own cars. Thus making 40k even more difficult to play.

Really? I have a TV on my wall that costs as much as a 40k army.

A multi-hundred dollar TV is again difficult for a lot of people to afford without saving for it. Consider yourself lucky that you can likely afford to replace it if it breaks and never worry about paying for netflix and internet access, not everybody is so fortunate.


The housing situation sounds like here, you in BC?

Nailed it in 1. Moved from Kelowna to Vancouver a few years ago and both are too expensive to live in. Any other "city" is too small to have jobs or is just as expensive.


Victoria is even worse.

Girl Gamers are the best! 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran




Vancouver, BC

 Blndmage wrote:
Victoria is even worse.

The entire island is its own thing entirely. Just gentrified to hell and back with prices that nobody who works on it can afford and few jobs to boot.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah- BC used to mean British Columbia... But now it means Bring Cash.
   
 
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