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Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




Voss wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
There are 2 types of general philosophies in approach to 40k;

Type Z: Those that can only envision something when they've been told what to do. Anything other than official is to be actively avoided and vocally shunned.
Type X: Those that can take something and work their own storytelling into it irrespective of official-ness. Actively seeking out changes to better their experience and will cooperate to achieve it.

They are fundamentally differing in the outcomes which are expected by the respective types of players.
That seems both reductive and insulting.

That's just how 'casual' rolls, I guess.
It all comes down to everyone else doing BadWrongFun in the end.

At least in internet arguments. Most people who just play don't worry about it.


I never have and never will understand why players from both camps are so polarized in perspective. There is a entire swath of grey territory between the two. I understand the need for segregation on tactics threads and vice versa but beyond that I am lost. Perhaps those respective threads are polarizing enough to create the division we see today.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Gert wrote:
Sledge, if you can provide me with a miniatures game the ticks the exact same boxes as 40k (various multipart plastic kits, large selection of faction choice, good value starter sets, game sizes that range from skirmish to mass battles) with a lower buy-in price, I will concede the point.


Bolt Action
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







ccs wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Sledge, if you can provide me with a miniatures game the ticks the exact same boxes as 40k (various multipart plastic kits, large selection of faction choice, good value starter sets, game sizes that range from skirmish to mass battles) with a lower buy-in price, I will concede the point.


Bolt Action


Gates of Antares, if you insist it be sci-fi.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 AnomanderRake wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Sledge, if you can provide me with a miniatures game the ticks the exact same boxes as 40k (various multipart plastic kits, large selection of faction choice, good value starter sets, game sizes that range from skirmish to mass battles) with a lower buy-in price, I will concede the point.


Bolt Action


Gates of Antares, if you insist it be sci-fi.


I can have both with Konflict '47.
   
Made in ca
Deranged Necron Destroyer






ccs wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Sledge, if you can provide me with a miniatures game the ticks the exact same boxes as 40k (various multipart plastic kits, large selection of faction choice, good value starter sets, game sizes that range from skirmish to mass battles) with a lower buy-in price, I will concede the point.


Bolt Action


Gates of Antares, if you insist it be sci-fi.


I can have both with Konflict '47.


I've been curious about Conflict '47, but I'd be solo playing, what COVID.

Girl Gamers are the best! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Blndmage wrote:
ccs wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Sledge, if you can provide me with a miniatures game the ticks the exact same boxes as 40k (various multipart plastic kits, large selection of faction choice, good value starter sets, game sizes that range from skirmish to mass battles) with a lower buy-in price, I will concede the point.


Bolt Action


Gates of Antares, if you insist it be sci-fi.


I can have both with Konflict '47.


I've been curious about Conflict '47, but I'd be solo playing, what COVID.


Likewise on the interest.
I know it's based on the BA system & is supposedly compatible. And I like a fair # of the models. And I like BA well enough. But Bolt action has been pretty dormant in my circles & local shops since well before Covid. :( So adding Konflict stuff to the backlog has been a very low priority.
That might be changing in the near future though as some new players have just recently bought BA starters (one of them tonight!)
   
Made in us
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





washington state USA

 Gert wrote:
Sledge, if you can provide me with a miniatures game the ticks the exact same boxes as 40k (various multipart plastic kits, large selection of faction choice, good value starter sets, game sizes that range from skirmish to mass battles) with a lower buy-in price, I will concede the point.


Man that's easy i got 2 right now that are better than anything GW has done in the last 3 editions.

DUST 1947

.5 factions with 3 sub factions with a broad selection of kits
.high quality, high detailed kits in 32mm
.cost that- varies on how much of a hobbiest you are. DUST comes in 3 levels of -un-assembled kits/ready to play fully assembled primed&decaled minis/premium fully pro painted weathered and based. in a straight across comparison a squad kit for space marines from GW are $60 US for dust a squad is $20 for the kit.....if you want to spend the extra money you can get a squad from DUST in premium for $65 but you are paying for a fully painted unit you don't have to do anything with aside from put it on the table.
.Rules/data cards-free to download
.incredibly balanced game play with hard counters for everything in the game (what can i say Andy Chambers does good work).
.alternating activation & reactive gameplay
.less restrictive army build rules outside of themed TO&E lists that allow play from skirmish level to apocalyptic level.

So yeah it ticks all the boxes and then some.

Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:



Alternately you have mantic games rather it be deadzone/warpath for the scifi setting or kings of war for the old world warhammer fantasy setting. you are looking at an average half the cost of GW just in kit's alone.

As another example a 5 man squad of terminators is $55 from GW, compared to mantics warpath a squad of 5 enforcer peacekeepers (terminator equivalent) is $19.99


Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:






This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 06:12:02




GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






Spoiler:
Goose LeChance wrote:


To be fair, Infinity rules are free on the website, along with a free army builder.

Besides that, GW is working overtime to give us plastic monopose anyway.

All the Warhammer systems have a free online army builder and have done for some time. AFAIK each unit box also includes some basic rules. I assume the whole "GW is forcing monopose models" thing is the same old argument that maybe about 25% of the 40k range is monopose character kits or starter sets? Even then that's not necessarily true but I don't fancy trawling for hours through GW looking for every monopose model.

My main point is that compared to another well known SciFi skirmish game, 40k Kill Team has a lower buy in price, better model quality and more factions to choose from. If I want to use Tactical Marines in KT I have 4 main kits to choose from (Tacs, Wolves, Mk3, Mk4) plus a boatload of upgrade kits if I want to play a specific chapter.

I would also like to point out to people that haven't read my discussion with Sledge:
A) I already play historical wargames. I enjoy playing them.
B) I don't consider them as filling the same niche as 40k as a hobby.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/12 10:36:03


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
Goose LeChance wrote:


To be fair, Infinity rules are free on the website, along with a free army builder.

Besides that, GW is working overtime to give us plastic monopose anyway.

All the Warhammer systems have a free online army builder and have done for some time. AFAIK each unit box also includes some basic rules. I assume the whole "GW is forcing monopose models" thing is the same old argument that maybe about 25% of the 40k range is monopose character kits or starter sets? Even then that's not necessarily true but I don't fancy trawling for hours through GW looking for every monopose model.

My main point is that compared to another well known SciFi skirmish game, 40k Kill Team has a lower buy in price, better model quality and more factions to choose from.

I would also like to point out to people that haven't read my discussion with Sledge:
A) I already play historical wargames.
B) I don't consider them as filling the same niche as 40k as a hobby.


I am still trying to work out the price you got, there is no starter set in infinity that is even half the price you stated. The ones that price are full or close to full infinity army’s. Or the two player starter which has two factions of models.
Also all rules are free for infinity, and the free army builders are all provided by other people from GW. The GW without paying do not really compare.
Also people should not equate plastic to quality, just bad take. At best kill team is a similar cost as you would need to buy multiple boxes for Kill team for a lot of factions anyway to get a good selection.
Also there is similar number of factions in infinity as there is in killteam, and the sub factions are way more expanded than anything in killteam.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 10:39:08


 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






I went into the Starter section on the Corvus Beli store and the first page has the Action Packs which I assumed to be starter sets. I've done a second check and there are Starter bundles but even then it's around £40 for 6 miniatures. I can spend £35 and get a box of Intercessors which is a basic KT start. I will grant that since the 40k ETB sets disappeared it's more expensive to play certain factions but even still one box of models is enough to get started. You could even go for the 40k Starter Sets and get things for the KT expansions as well as a board and terrain.

The GW free army builders are on the Warhammer Community site and are available for 40k/AoS/KT/Warcry/Underworlds.

I don't say GW is better quality just because it's plastic, although it is a major part of it. The kits primarily used for KT are multi-part plastic kits that 9/10 times have compatibility with other products in the 40k range. I can pick up a squad of CSM and look at loads of GW and FW kits that I can use to either upgrade or make aesthetic changes to my squad with. It also comes down to ease of painting/building. I look at the Infinity sculpts as a person who's been doing wargaming for a while and they look like a challenge to paint. I look at a squad of SM with their flat open panels and that's a much easier job.

As for factions, on the Corvus Beli Infinity page under the Factions subheading, it has 10 options. In the KT rulebook, it lists 16. If I go onto the KT Roster Builder on WarCom it has another 5 factions you can easily buy into (I excluded the Gellerpox and Starstriders as they are OOP). Most factions also have their subfactions included i.e. White Scars, Night Lords, Biel Tann, Kraken.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 11:45:04


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




The action packs are more advanced starters, more comparable to the start collecting boxes.

Infinity factions are split into several distinct forces. And they have several minor factions as well on top of that. It’s a lot more diverse than Kill team is on that front.

I find painting metal more enjoyable due to the way it holds detail, and never had issues with building.
Aesthetics is more personal thing, but infinity is not quite as strict with WYSWG as well as not really having as bloated weapon profiles as some 40k factions do. That advantage doesn’t really exist for probably half the factions so much.
With infinity if you do want the more advanced weapons you can just pick up the model with that weapon, not needing often to get a full box anyway.

As for the army builders GW does provide, I only use the kill team one and it didn’t offer anything as good as infinity.
There apps are not as good ether considering you have to pay for so much.
With a wiki linked right from the infinity app for any rules and rulings needed anytime, it’s a fantastic resource for casual games. And been fantastic for getting new players in with a very low investment
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Gert wrote:
I went into the Starter section on the Corvus Beli store and the first page has the Action Packs which I assumed to be starter sets. I've done a second check and there are Starter bundles but even then it's around £40 for 6 miniatures. I can spend £35 and get a box of Intercessors which is a basic KT start. I will grant that since the 40k ETB sets disappeared it's more expensive to play certain factions but even still one box of models is enough to get started. You could even go for the 40k Starter Sets and get things for the KT expansions as well as a board and terrain.

The GW free army builders are on the Warhammer Community site and are available for 40k/AoS/KT/Warcry/Underworlds.

I don't say GW is better quality just because it's plastic, although it is a major part of it. The kits primarily used for KT are multi-part plastic kits that 9/10 times have compatibility with other products in the 40k range. I can pick up a squad of CSM and look at loads of GW and FW kits that I can use to either upgrade or make aesthetic changes to my squad with. It also comes down to ease of painting/building. I look at the Infinity sculpts as a person who's been doing wargaming for a while and they look like a challenge to paint. I look at a squad of SM with their flat open panels and that's a much easier job.

As for factions, on the Corvus Beli Infinity page under the Factions subheading, it has 10 options. In the KT rulebook, it lists 16. If I go onto the KT Roster Builder on WarCom it has another 5 factions you can easily buy into (I excluded the Gellerpox and Starstriders as they are OOP). Most factions also have their subfactions included i.e. White Scars, Night Lords, Biel Tann, Kraken.


There are multiple subfactions for most factions in Infinity that are quite distinct. For example, my friend and I both have Nomads but I have Corregidor nomads which are kind of a hispanic spec ops force with slightly funkier weaponry, tattooed prison gang dudes with knives and super devastating shotgun weapons as their basic troopers, TAGs small enough that they can actually be included in a normal list without totally dominating half your points budget (the reason I picked them tbh), and he's got Bakunin, which are like, russian eastern Orthodox religious zealots with a quasi sisters of battle aesthetic.

We're playing "The Same" faction but every miniature we have is completely distinct.

Also, infinity does have non-human factions. There's a robot faction called Aleph and a Halo Covenant style alien race called the Combined Army.

Plus, while multiple factions are human, there's several aesthetics you generally don't get to see in most sci-fi settings where 'humans' are generally just 'everyone of all races decided to dress like americans, speak english and form a grand alliance of all the cultures' or 'everyone is just american by default and if there are any non-american people it's a large chunk of their personality and character and usually there's just the one' or 'we represent the non-white earth cultures with obviously culturally inspired aliens.' There are various european, american, middle eastern, east asian, and mesoamerican factions represented and given their own thing to do.


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





washington state USA

I've done a second check and there are Starter bundles but even then it's around £40 for 6 miniatures. I can spend £35 and get a box of Intercessors which is a basic KT start.


I think you may be missing a key point about the game.

It is a dedicated squad based skirmish game that is not designed to go large. in fact no matter what points level you play at the ideal army only has 10 models in a single order pool. you can do more order pools to get extra models but the number of actions each pool has is limited to 10.


The difference between a 10 man army at 150 points and one at 300 points is quality of gear/troopers.

You cannot build an entire 40K army for less than $150 US but it is the average for a full 300 point infinity army including TAGs (effectively tanks/vehciles) so that squad you buy from GW a full army does not make, but 6 minis from infinity may very well be a full army if they are elite enough units.

Thats why for scale i recommended DUST or Mantics warpath because they directly scale with a full sized 40K game.

You want starter boxes

The BIG army boxes from mantic run you a mix of 50 odd infantry/bikes etc... miniatures and a vehicle or 2 for $150 US GW doesn't even come close. what is close in price for $140 is a 40K combat patrol box with 10-15 infantry and a single vehicle

DUST starter boxes as full un-assembled kits are in the $75 for the same number of models you get in the GW patrol box...so about half price.


In terms of price or model quality it isn't even a valid argument, in terms of rules even less so. What GW has is market share and recognized IP. It is like buying a harley davidson motorcycle, you pay extra for the name.






GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

 aphyon wrote:
I've done a second check and there are Starter bundles but even then it's around £40 for 6 miniatures. I can spend £35 and get a box of Intercessors which is a basic KT start.


I think you may be missing a key point about the game.

It is a dedicated squad based skirmish game that is not designed to go large. in fact no matter what points level you play at the ideal army only has 10 models in a single order pool. you can do more order pools to get extra models but the number of actions each pool has is limited to 10.

The difference between a 10 man army at 150 points and one at 300 points is quality of gear/troopers.

This is absolute bull. It might be true NOW, but it was not the case previously. Combat Groups(which aren't an army--it's a group of 10 models sharing an Order pool) have always been 10 models, but before they started with the Limited Insertion nonsense and things like that via ITS? It was not uncommon to see some factions with spammy lists of 30 or so models. Ariadna was a key offender in this regard, but they were far from alone.

You cannot build an entire 40K army for less than $150 US but it is the average for a full 300 point infinity army including TAGs (effectively tanks/vehciles) so that squad you buy from GW a full army does not make, but 6 minis from infinity may very well be a full army if they are elite enough units.

Also incorrect. $150 US might be the "average for a full 300 point infinity army including TAGs", but it also ignores that Infinity's boxed sets are just as wildly overpriced for what they are as GW's and you're taking a chance that your faction is going to be ignored for years if not outright "retired" with vague allusions to things being redone later. And that's not even getting into certain profiles being locked into "starter" products in a way that would make GW blush.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:

There are multiple subfactions for most factions in Infinity that are quite distinct. For example, my friend and I both have Nomads but I have Corregidor nomads which are kind of a hispanic spec ops force with slightly funkier weaponry, tattooed prison gang dudes with knives and super devastating shotgun weapons as their basic troopers, TAGs small enough that they can actually be included in a normal list without totally dominating half your points budget (the reason I picked them tbh), and he's got Bakunin, which are like, russian eastern Orthodox religious zealots with a quasi sisters of battle aesthetic.

"Corregidor" is the name of a ship that was used by South America, the Phillipines, parts of sub-Saharan Africa, and Eastern Europe as a dumping ground for prisoners and refugees. Hence the name of the ship being "Corregidor".

Bakunin is effectively an artist/hippy commune gone BDSM. The Observance is a subfaction within Bakunin, effectively a subsect of Christianity that venerates the "Lady of the Blade" or something to that extent. The translation on it from CB always felt weird.

We're playing "The Same" faction but every miniature we have is completely distinct.

Except for the shared stuff like remotes, you mean?

Also, infinity does have non-human factions. There's a robot faction called Aleph and a Halo Covenant style alien race called the Combined Army.

ALEPH aren't robots. They just employ robots. There's two branches happening there: the Reconstructions and the Posthumans. Reconstructions are a Westworld styled made up consciousness for a historical figure while Posthumans are legitimately human brains digitized and given a combat body.

Combined Army are vastly underutilized except as "The Bad Guys".

Plus, while multiple factions are human, there's several aesthetics you generally don't get to see in most sci-fi settings where 'humans' are generally just 'everyone of all races decided to dress like americans, speak english and form a grand alliance of all the cultures' or 'everyone is just american by default and if there are any non-american people it's a large chunk of their personality and character and usually there's just the one' or 'we represent the non-white earth cultures with obviously culturally inspired aliens.' There are various european, american, middle eastern, east asian, and mesoamerican factions represented and given their own thing to do.

Literally all of the Americans are shoveled into USARF, which has been a disaster from the outset of them getting their own army list. The only non-USARF Americans are background references to stuff that happened three or four generations back!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 19:25:39


 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






I think some people here need some perspective outside of comparing 40k to other less prominent games with cult following with little to no brand equity.

All this talk of "40k costs too much" is so BS. If you don't feel like spending money on plastic toy soldiers, that's fine. But that's a 'you' problem.

GW products are not cheap, that's for sure. But unless you're a meta chaser buying $500 worth figures per month, it's no more expensive than your netflix subscription, a pack of cigarette, fast food combo meal, etc. Either way, starting a 40k army is a considerable expense for mere toys, but by no means is it a bank/back breaker.

There are also plenty other ways to obtain models for cheaper -3rd party stores offering 20% discounts, second hand rescue, trades, etc. You don't HAVE to pay the MSRP as prescribed by GW.

My 2k ravenwing army costed me less than $300 by buying parts of dark vengeance kit and scouring ebay for second hands. (bikes were going for $5~8/bike when supply exceeded the demand at the time)

Then I spent about $40 in repairs (paint stripper, putties, etc).

Last ~800ish points were NIB, costing me about $180.

My current damage on my ~3k ravenwing army is still on the lower end of $500.

This was spread apart, I would say, over the course of 3 years? So that'd make $166.67 in expenses per year, which is $13.88 a month.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/12 19:47:12


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




it's no more expensive than your netflix subscription, a pack of cigarette, fast food combo meal, etc.


I can get a pack of ciggarets for around half a dollar here. Polish version of netflix is the second highest in cost comparing to the number of movies/series you get, only Norwegians pay more.

Also go and tell a 13-14 year old and tell them they have to wait for 2-3 years for their army to be playable, see what reaction you will get. Specially when they are told that within those 2-3 years, there maybe an edition change that turns their army in to something bad.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 skchsan wrote:
...All this talk of "40k costs too much" is so BS. If you don't feel like spending money on plastic toy soldiers, that's fine. But that's a 'you' problem.

GW products are not cheap, that's for sure. But unless you're a meta chaser buying $500 worth figures per month, it's no more expensive than your netflix subscription, a pack of cigarette, fast food combo meal, etc. Either way, starting a 40k army is a considerable expense for mere toys, but by no means is it a bank/back breaker...


You may notice that the people complaining about how much 40k costs are often the ones complaining that if you aren't a meta-chaser buying $500 of new stuff every month you get to spend long periods of time getting steamrolled because GW's warehouse algorithm has decided they've sold enough of your minis so they need to become unplayable for a while.

...There are also plenty other ways to obtain models for cheaper -3rd party stores offering 20% discounts, second hand rescue, trades, etc. You don't HAVE to pay the MSRP as prescribed by GW...


Yup. If you want to get the unplayable stuff that'll get tabled in two turns you can get it really cheap because all the meta-chasers are dumping armies as soon as they get nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
...All the Warhammer systems have a free online army builder and have done for some time. AFAIK each unit box also includes some basic rules...


I mean, if you count Battlescribe, sure. To my knowledge the official GW ones are barely functional and require subscription fees/buying paper Codexes if you want enough material to actually play the game. The datasheets in the boxes are so incomplete I'd basically have to build my own game to do anything with them.

...I assume the whole "GW is forcing monopose models" thing is the same old argument that maybe about 25% of the 40k range is monopose character kits or starter sets? Even then that's not necessarily true but I don't fancy trawling for hours through GW looking for every monopose model...


If you look at newer releases lots of "multi-part plastic kits" are completely monopose now (the Incubi/Banshees are particularly bad). This is also often a complaint about the move to no kit/no rules (where unit loadouts are informed solely by what the kit building instructions say) and the decision to make the Primaris all single-loadout squads.

...My main point is that compared to another well known SciFi skirmish game, 40k Kill Team has a lower buy in price, better model quality and more factions to choose from. If I want to use Tactical Marines in KT I have 4 main kits to choose from (Tacs, Wolves, Mk3, Mk4) plus a boatload of upgrade kits if I want to play a specific chapter...


The "lower buy-in price" argument sort of works, but it falls apart if you want to build a Kill Team that isn't just made of the models out of one box. You can spend $50 and buy some Tactical Marines and play Kill Team, sure, but if you want to add one non-Tactical Marine to your squad you're buying a whole extra $50 box. And if you don't like Space Marines you often don't have the ability to muddle through with just one box that way.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/12 20:20:45


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Karol wrote:
Also go and tell a 13-14 year old and tell them they have to wait for 2-3 years for their army to be playable, see what reaction you will get. Specially when they are told that within those 2-3 years, there maybe an edition change that turns their army in to something bad.
Tell that kid to explain to me exactly why he perpetually needs $500 a month to buy toys, and then you and I could continue discussing.

And what does age have to do anything with a game being casual or not? Are you arguing 'high affordability' = 'casual'? If a kid could afford a game, that must mean that the game is very casual?

Meta chasing comes at a cost. If you're not willing to dish out enough money to be a meta chaser, then I don't think there's any grounds to justify your claim that "the game costs too much". It's not that it costs too much, but rather you simply cannot afford it - which brings us back to my point that this is a 'YOU' problem and not one that's about how 'casual' the game can or cannot be.

If you're upset that your current financial situation prohibits you from becoming a meta chaser, then maybe you should just find a higher paying job instead of blaming a company for selling products to make profit (which is quite literally what a company is supposed to do).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/12 21:51:38


 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

They're in high school and have severe (self-admitted) social interaction problems. So that's not a valid thing to shoot them down about.

Not defending Karol, but....
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

 skchsan wrote:
Tell that kid to explain to me exactly why he perpetually needs $500 a month to buy toys, and then you and I could continue discussing.

And what does age have to do anything with a game being casual or not? Are you arguing 'high affordability' = 'casual'? If a kid could afford a game, that must mean that the game is very casual?

Meta chasing comes at a cost. If you're not willing to dish out enough money to be a meta chaser, then I don't think there's any grounds to justify your claim that "the game costs too much". It's not that it costs too much, but rather you simply cannot afford it - which brings us back to my point that this is a 'YOU' problem and not one that's about how 'casual' the game can or cannot be.

If you're upset that your current financial situation prohibits you from becoming a meta chaser, then maybe you should just find a higher paying job instead of blaming a company for selling products to make profit (which is quite literally what a company is supposed to do).

Why should the player who gets into the hobby on the cheap have a drastically worse play experience than the whale who buys $500 worth of models every month?
   
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 Canadian 5th wrote:
Why should the player who gets into the hobby on the cheap have a drastically worse play experience than the whale who buys $500 worth of models every month?
The same reason as to why a person who plays sports for leisure gets crushed by a professional athlete?

Differe league, different game. Period.

It is literally meta chaser's job to stay ahead of the competitive edge by spending money to get the new hot stuff that melts stuff by just looking at it. Meta chasing is arguably the highest level of competitiveness in wargaming.
   
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 Canadian 5th wrote:
Why should the player who gets into the hobby on the cheap have a drastically worse play experience than the whale who buys $500 worth of models every month?


Cannot. Exalt. Enough.

I might not fully agree with how broadly you apply competitiveness - but there's a spirit of fairness in that statement that makes competition meaningful and meritocratic, and I can respect this.

"More money = More power" is the kind of predatory economy mobile gaming runs on, and whether engineered in 40K by malice or incompetence (I lean the latter) I'm absolutely sure it's not a good thing, or even one that should be tolerable.

"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"

-Tex Talks Battletech on GW 
   
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Vancouver, BC

 CEO Kasen wrote:
Cannot. Exalt. Enough.

I might not fully agree with how broadly you apply competitiveness - but there's a spirit of fairness in that statement that makes competition meaningful and meritocratic, and I can respect this.

"More money = More power" is the kind of predatory economy mobile gaming runs on, and whether engineered in 40K by malice or incompetence (I lean the latter) I'm absolutely sure it's not a good thing, or even one that should be tolerable.

I'd rather many things in life allow for a more relaxed approach, but I don't see that many current systems are designed to facilitate that.

In the case of games, I play to win but I'm 100% down to allow you to play me with proxied models, 3d prints, and other non-GW tokens that represent a collection of rules. I play for the thrill of the fight, not for the validation of my purchase of specific chunk of trademarked plastic.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 skchsan wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
Why should the player who gets into the hobby on the cheap have a drastically worse play experience than the whale who buys $500 worth of models every month?
The same reason as to why a person who plays sports for leisure gets crushed by a professional athlete?

Differe league, different game. Period.

It is literally meta chaser's job to stay ahead of the competitive edge by spending money to get the new hot stuff that melts stuff by just looking at it. Meta chasing is arguably the highest level of competitiveness in wargaming.

That's a bizarre comparison. A professional athlete isn't better because they spend more, they're paid more because they're better, and therefore can play their respective sport professionally. Winning by spending the most money isn't a competition, it's an auction.
   
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Vancouver, BC

 skchsan wrote:
The same reason as to why a person who plays sports for leisure gets crushed by a professional athlete?

This doesn't track. In sports raw physical gifts and exceptional talent get you to the pro level. You wear nicer gear because you play the game for a living, but the cost of your gear doesn't make you a pro.

It is literally meta chaser's job to stay ahead of the competitive edge by spending money to get the new hot stuff that melts stuff by just looking at it. Meta chasing is arguably the highest level of competitiveness in wargaming.

I like high-end play more than most here, but the part I hate is the meta chase. I'd much rather see a balanced game where skill beats money which is why I follow a game like League which costs nothing to play and where one of the best players in the world refuses to use skins because he wants to show that anybody can play the game he loves.
   
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I think what skchsan may have been trying to say is that a professional athlete puts loads of time and effort into being at the top of their game. Physical gifts only get you so far so you need to keep training. Also money absolutely comes into getting to be a top athlete. It's rare that a real-life Disney story happens where the kindly rich person/coach gives all their time to an unlucky but gifted athlete.
If someone spends more time and money on Warhammer trying to stay on top of the competitive game then of course a less competitive person who maybe does a couple of games a month and buys a unit a month, if any at all, is going to struggle to beat them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 22:56:25


 
   
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 skchsan wrote:
Karol wrote:
Also go and tell a 13-14 year old and tell them they have to wait for 2-3 years for their army to be playable, see what reaction you will get. Specially when they are told that within those 2-3 years, there maybe an edition change that turns their army in to something bad.
Tell that kid to explain to me exactly why he perpetually needs $500 a month to buy toys, and then you and I could continue discussing.

And what does age have to do anything with a game being casual or not? Are you arguing 'high affordability' = 'casual'? If a kid could afford a game, that must mean that the game is very casual?

Meta chasing comes at a cost. If you're not willing to dish out enough money to be a meta chaser, then I don't think there's any grounds to justify your claim that "the game costs too much". It's not that it costs too much, but rather you simply cannot afford it - which brings us back to my point that this is a 'YOU' problem and not one that's about how 'casual' the game can or cannot be.

If you're upset that your current financial situation prohibits you from becoming a meta chaser, then maybe you should just find a higher paying job instead of blaming a company for selling products to make profit (which is quite literally what a company is supposed to do).
I'm literally at a lack of words for what you are advocating for.
   
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 Gert wrote:
I think what skchsan may have been trying to say is that a professional athlete puts loads of time and effort into being at the top of their game. Physical gifts only get you so far so you need to keep training. Also money absolutely comes into getting to be a top athlete. It's rare that a real-life Disney story happens where the kindly rich person/coach gives all their time to an unlucky but gifted athlete.
If someone spends more time and money on Warhammer trying to stay on top of the competitive game then of course a less competitive person who maybe does a couple of games a month and buys a unit a month, if any at all, is going to struggle to beat them.


In some circles "the person who buys more minis wins" is called "pay to win" and is regarded as a gakky way to write a game.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Gert wrote:
I think what skchsan may have been trying to say is that a professional athlete puts loads of time and effort into being at the top of their game. Physical gifts only get you so far so you need to keep training. Also money absolutely comes into getting to be a top athlete. It's rare that a real-life Disney story happens where the kindly rich person/coach gives all their time to an unlucky but gifted athlete.
If someone spends more time and money on Warhammer trying to stay on top of the competitive game then of course a less competitive person who maybe does a couple of games a month and buys a unit a month, if any at all, is going to struggle to beat them.


In some circles "the person who buys more minis wins" is called "pay to win" and is regarded as a gakky way to write a game.


I buy a crap ton, but its mostly to play everything in the book and when doing causal no one cares that I have 6 Ravagers b.c I only play with 1.

Its the people that buys the "new hot thing" like ATV's with other Apoth on bike going DA when they normally don't like bikes.

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Firstly you've taken the "buys more stuff" part out of context. A SM player will need fewer minis than a Nid or Guard player but because the Nid/Guard player bought more miniatures then by your logic it must be PTW. What my point actually said was spending more time playing games and money on a greater selection of units will give you a greater understanding of it than someone who's only bought a Starter set or SC box.

Buying into a "hot right now" faction doesn't give you auto wins, you still need to understand and learn to play the army. For example, I started Deathwatch when 9th came out and despite them being a top-tier winner army, I've yet to win a game because my opponent understands his army better than I understand mine. He plays T'au.
   
 
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