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If you go all rhinos and zerkers don't be surprised if you get shot off the board - also dumping kharn solely as a reroll mechanic is a waste of points (imho). It is a fun flavor list but if you play an optimized list / local gamestore hero you will be in trouble.

 lindsay40k wrote:
There's always the option to switch a Heldrake with a Hell Blade. It'll save dropping a Berzerker for the meat shield, and if you come up against an opposing Air Wing it'll stop DftS dogfights from being a one-sided pigeon shoot. Pretty good capability at pouncing on backfield indirect fire units and characters, too.

Except the Hell Blade is utter trash.

So how would you run kharn? Just not worry about the 1's in close combat?

Also I understand it's not the most competitive list, but I don't see how my opponent would be able to kill all 6 rhinos in the first turn of shooting, and with how close armies start to each other with the current deployment system I don't need the rhinos to last past first turn. And it's not like the old days when you started 30" apart, I don't expect all of the beserkers to get there but I don't see getting shot off the board either.

How would you run a world eaters army with no Forge world options?

Azuza001 wrote:
So how would you run kharn? Just not worry about the 1's in close combat?

Also I understand it's not the most competitive list, but I don't see how my opponent would be able to kill all 6 rhinos in the first turn of shooting, and with how close armies start to each other with the current deployment system I don't need the rhinos to last past first turn. And it's not like the old days when you started 30" apart, I don't expect all of the beserkers to get there but I don't see getting shot off the board either.

How would you run a world eaters army with no Forge world options?

I would hardly worry about the 1's of hitting. He does give himself his reroll benefit after all. That's a 1/36 chance of hitting your own dude. You're fine.

For those it concerns - Death Guard Inexorable Advance is now <HELBRUTE>, instead of just the Helbrute specific named unit. Good news.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
So how would you run kharn? Just not worry about the 1's in close combat?

Also I understand it's not the most competitive list, but I don't see how my opponent would be able to kill all 6 rhinos in the first turn of shooting, and with how close armies start to each other with the current deployment system I don't need the rhinos to last past first turn. And it's not like the old days when you started 30" apart, I don't expect all of the beserkers to get there but I don't see getting shot off the board either.

How would you run a world eaters army with no Forge world options?

I would hardly worry about the 1's of hitting. He does give himself his reroll benefit after all. That's a 1/36 chance of hitting your own dude. You're fine.

Kharn cannot re-roll his ones, says so right there in his The Betrayer rule.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
So how would you run kharn? Just not worry about the 1's in close combat?

Also I understand it's not the most competitive list, but I don't see how my opponent would be able to kill all 6 rhinos in the first turn of shooting, and with how close armies start to each other with the current deployment system I don't need the rhinos to last past first turn. And it's not like the old days when you started 30" apart, I don't expect all of the beserkers to get there but I don't see getting shot off the board either.

How would you run a world eaters army with no Forge world options?

I would hardly worry about the 1's of hitting. He does give himself his reroll benefit after all. That's a 1/36 chance of hitting your own dude. You're fine.

Kharn cannot re-roll his ones, says so right there in his The Betrayer rule.

Huh, how'd I miss that?

Still 1/6 of the time then. I'm fine with those odds.

Other good FAQ news is that if you unlock Chaos Space Marine stratagems, they Can be used on DG and TS units that fit the criteria.

Anyone see advantages to this? Obvious one is tide of traitors on DG cultists (but, probabyl AL are better) and daemonforge on DG daemon vehicles.

Anyone have any success running two to three artefacts? Thanks.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Other good FAQ news is that if you unlock Chaos Space Marine stratagems, they Can be used on DG and TS units that fit the criteria.

Anyone see advantages to this? Obvious one is tide of traitors on DG cultists (but, probabyl AL are better) and daemonforge on DG daemon vehicles.

VotLW for mortal wounds on a 5+ with your entire unit throwing d6 nades.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Other good FAQ news is that if you unlock Chaos Space Marine stratagems, they Can be used on DG and TS units that fit the criteria.

Anyone see advantages to this? Obvious one is tide of traitors on DG cultists (but, probabyl AL are better) and daemonforge on DG daemon vehicles.

It's worth noting daemonforge doesn't work on death guard daemon engines. Daemonforge specifies a chaos space marine daemon engine. DG demon engines are not chaos space marine demon engines, any more than a DG detachment qualifies as a chaos space marine detachment for the purpose of unlocking the the stratagems in the first place.

It's really weird and clunky, but chaos space marine x refers to something from the CSM codex. The heretic astartes keyword is used to indicate it must belong to any of the CSM/heretic astartes armies.

So it does.


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Daemon shell, in case you want mortal wounds with you mortal wounds

Hmm... Kharn as quartermaster. Interesting. Halfway to an always-on Daemonforge. Not impossible to get him in range of two Lords of Skulls and two Forgefiends or Defilers. That'd be a surprisingly formidable gunline.

You don't have to worry about him hitting his comrades, you know. You can stage-manage your pile-in moves - "move 3" and get closer to the nearest enemy model" gives you a lot of leeway for creative sidesteps and not even moving at all. As long as someone's next to Kharn when their unit makes their attacks and isn't when Kharn is making his attacks, they're out of his reach.

I know, and I really am not that afraid of it honestly, I am the kind of player who ran mass plasma back when it would always blow up on a 1. But I just find karn with reroll all misses and defilers combo so interesting, defilers main negative is its bs5+ when moving and if kharn is there suddenly that's a lot more hits and you have a moving crab line of defilers that will make anything think twice about charging.

If I didn't have so many beserkers I would look at going that route with my world eaters army. But 60+ beserkers I need to find a tactic that makes them effective enough to justify them without trying to go full mass army change.

Azuza001 wrote:
So I have read this entire thread from page one now and have some questions in regards to world eaters myself. I'm normally a single legion army personally, not wanting to run multiple detachments of different legions so no sorcerers for me. Also no Forge world. I don't have a problem with Forge world personally but I don't want to run it myself.

Kharn the betrayer seems to work best as a supportive unit for long range, like defilers or predators. Is this the general consensus, run him for his aura giving shooting units a nice boost and using his powerful cc stats as a counter offensive to make my opponent think twice about charging my fire line, but keep him away from your actual beserkers. Fair assessment?

Most people say run beserkers in rhinos and not floot slog them, but I have 60 beserkers and 1 rhino lol. I'm thinking of getting 5 more rhinos to do a 6 rhino rush, or just running them as 3 large blobs and run. If I do the running beserkers I would run renegades legion tactics and get access to sorcerer, but lose kharn and the nice +1 attack on charge for advance and charge, is this probably the best way to go? (Oh and I would have to run elite detachments because I now have no troops). Which is the better way to go do you guys think? I think they both have merits.

Helldrakes : I love the model but it seems to do best as a distraction carnifex at this point unless my opponent runs aircraft themselves, in which case it's fly straight at it and charge. Fair assessment? Have you guys had any luck using them a different way?

Finally, Deamon prince. I have been running him with wings, talons, and the collar artifact for my anti psychic use. I think this is a fantastic way to run it, powerful, quick, and supportive. If I do go the renegades way though would it be better to go mark of slaneesh with the elixir? He could still counter psychic powers, still get a ton of attacks at a higher strength, and get access to his own psychic powers, I am thinking the 5+ fnp power would be most useful on himself.

Have I gotten this all correct or did I miss something?

I have run Kharn alongside a Lord of skulls and a Land raider before as well as in a more static gunline parking lot with a mix of defiler and predators. For helping the defiler, he is a mixed bag, he certainly helps the defiler, but a 4+ is still a 4+ and if you try shooting at a flyer, then it becomes 5+ (without any degrading). Even a Kharn reroll won't help the defiler much if you are aiming to hit a flyer. He makes the Lord of skulls and the Land raider get alot of their hits in. And the good thing is, both are moving up the board anyway, so Kharn will likely see some action. He might lag behind just a bit but its ok if you move advance. By the time he truly lags behind, you should be in combat already. But just keep him away from squads or berserkers, he doesn't really help those because his reroll only applies to models within 1 inch, not units. Now that there is a strategem to give LOS reroll to hit and reroll to wound (demonforge), then Kharn is no longer so important here. And Land Raider is kinda overcosted to begin with. So, if I ever ran such a list now, I am not sure I would take a LR, and Kharn would not be strictly necessary either. Oh, Kharn is good against assasins, I ever got him into a fight with a Curelex assasin before. He mopped the floor on that assasin because he always hits on a 2+.

For your berserkers, at the risk of being unfluffy, I would suggest running Alpha legion for the entire 60 zerkers and then using the forward operatives strategem to infiltrate them to within 9.1 inches. Then if you go first, you move and charge already. Even if you go second, you weather just one round of shooting, and then you move and charge too. Probably the best strategy for a footslogging zerker army. At 20 man per squad, you just need to spend 3 points to infiltrate up 3 squads of 20 each.

Actually, in my limited experience, truly shooty armies are not afraid of berzerkers. They can delete a lot of zerkers in one round and they just need to throw some speed bumps in your way. Cheap infantry and stall you. So, you charge those and destroy it. Then next turn they shoot you again. Even if you finally get to charge one of their heavy support units. That unit either dies or falls back while the rest happily shoots you yet again. By the time you make it across the board in the face of all that shooting, you simply don't have enough models to go around hunting each and every heavy support choice they have. Also, some shooty lists will have that one or two really scary models that can easily take on a depleted squad of berzerkers and mop the floor with them. I am referring to models like Gulliman or Celestine. Either one will make quick work of a half dead zerker squad that finally reaches their battle line. It might be different if you charge them at full strength, but honestly, its a gunline. You will be lucky to be at half strength by the time you get to charge him, or he is doing gunline wrong.

A shooty army will single out your most dangerous units (those that can give their Gulliman or celestine problems) and take those out first. Usually this means your heavy support shooting, or your Magnus or Mortarion if you are running those (cos they can be targetted). They will worry about your footslogging zerkers after they have used that one round to take out your heavy support or your Magnus, because they will have speed bumps prepared. That's why Alpha legion is so deadly. If you get to go first, you can literally charge his lines with 60 zerkers. If you still can't beat a shooty army despite having a first turn charge with 60 zerkers, then we can probably agree that world eaters aren't competitive this edition. lol

Kharn's reroll only applies to models within 1"? It says units in my Index.

Beating down a Culexus with him must have been hilarious. "Heretic foolsss! Do you know the power I wield? I can sssever your sssorcerersss' link to the Warp! There isss only one in the galaxssy feared by psssykerssss more than I, and in these ssshadowsss no man other than he can ssstrike me! ...What? ...Oh, Throne. He's behind me, isn't he?"

Still feel the 60 zerker play is forced and using kharn as a rerolling buffer is a bit over the top and not worth maximizing point cost. Its not that it is bad vanilla per se, but certainly not optimized. I have no idea how you would fight 8 commander spam (tau) with that list or a gunline of astra militarum/imperial guard.

To just assume its worthwhile as long as one group of zerkers charges in I don't see as beneficial and there are other units that benefit more form the -1 to hit.

If you wanted to run a worldeaters army my suggestion would be a focused amount of zerkers with kharn in tow for the rerolls. I forget if this was a "no FW" army but putting a kharb assault claw in makes all the more sense. Supplement this with a reasonable amount of bubblewrap and some heavy support in back is my suggestion.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Kharn's reroll only applies to models within 1"? It says units in my Index.

Beating down a Culexus with him must have been hilarious. "Heretic foolsss! Do you know the power I wield? I can sssever your sssorcerersss' link to the Warp! There isss only one in the galaxssy feared by psssykerssss more than I, and in these ssshadowsss no man other than he can ssstrike me! ...What? ...Oh, Throne. He's behind me, isn't he?"

Hmmm, ok not sure. it might have been unit, but still. I would run Kharn for vehicles, they need the reroll a lot more than infantry units. If I wanted infantry to get a reroll in close combat, a dark apostle is far far cheaper than Kharn.

It WAS hilarious. But to be fair, he wasn't charging Kharn, he was charging another unit who happened to be within 3 inches of Kharn, so I got to heroic intervention Kharn into battle as well. Not that it made much of a difference, I was close to being tabled already at that point in the game because I was trying so hard to run a world eaters list against a shooty list. Kharn actually made it across the table and reached the enemy battle lines in the end, but he was one model, he couldn't catch and kill every single heavy support all by himself. And I simply didn't have much left (the rest had been all shot to bits).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

orkswubwub wrote:
Still feel the 60 zerker play is forced and using kharn as a rerolling buffer is a bit over the top and not worth maximizing point cost. Its not that it is bad vanilla per se, but certainly not optimized. I have no idea how you would fight 8 commander spam (tau) with that list or a gunline of astra militarum/imperial guard.

To just assume its worthwhile as long as one group of zerkers charges in I don't see as beneficial and there are other units that benefit more form the -1 to hit.

If you wanted to run a worldeaters army my suggestion would be a focused amount of zerkers with kharn in tow for the rerolls. I forget if this was a "no FW" army but putting a kharb assault claw in makes all the more sense. Supplement this with a reasonable amount of bubblewrap and some heavy support in back is my suggestion.

Well, against truly competitive lists, it would probably fail. I mean, its rather one dimensional. But an assault army IS one dimentional. It just wants to get in close and fight in melee.

Yes there is a difference between not being competitive and just being frustrated. This type of comp literally has no way of dealing with 8 commander spam and would be tabled without killing a model almost... Games like that can be harrowing - as long as the mindset is - let's run this for the LOL's and see what happens - to each their own.

So I guess the consensus is with zerkers they are amazing but you have to make them a threat asap and not waste time. And for world eaters that's done by rhinos or Forge world Support. But you also have to be able to use them against the right targets, take out weaker bubble rap units first.

So here is the question. 4 squads of 10 beserkers, 4 rhinos with combi bolters / combi meltas. 3 hellbrutes with heavy plasma cannons and kharn. 2 bike squads of 3, leader with combi bolters, 1 with melta gun. Deamon prince with wings and brass collar. That's 11 drops, 100 power level or 2030 pts (easy enough to get down to 2000, just drop a melta or a beserker).

The idea is the hellbrutes can overcharge the plasma cannons and stay with kharn to keep rerolls on the hits and not worry so much about hurting themselves.

The rhinos move forward full speed, pop smoke, and then drop off the zerkers and let them work forwards. Use the rhinos combi bolters to clear bubble rap units. Also use the bikers to do the same.

Deamon prince protects with the collar and moves towards attacking any flying / high priority targets.

Any tanks/heavy units will need to be taken out by the meltas or plasma cannons, not their best plan but doable.

It's the best competitive list I can think of for pure world eaters. It keeps moving, not a single part needs to stay still to be effective. But I really think your right Eldenfirefly, pure isn't competitive. But it could be fun.

Don't get me wrong. I agree. I was always trying to run some form of world eaters, or at least a mixed assault army, but it always failed miserably. I would always get shot off the board against my opponent who loved to play shooty lists.

It simply never worked. You would have thought that I could cater to a shooty list since I always played him. But a world eaters list just doesn't fare very well against a shooty list. Maybe I just didn't have the right mix of units for a truly assault army. But so far, I have yet to be able to think of a world eaters army that really worked well. One of the key issues is that the world eaters list needs shooting. You simply need to clear away chaff infantry road blocks as well as cheap transports that are in your way. You can't afford to charge these. Every turn you fail to charge the truly dangerous parts of a shooty army is one turn he gets to shoot you with full effect. And world eaters aren't very resilient. zerkers are same as a normal CSM when it comes to durability. Just once you start putting some shooty elements in, then you weaken your assault portions. And then you risk getting into a shooting war with your opponent, and world eaters simply can't outshoot a dedicated shooty army because its not their strength.

Well I think we should be honest here as well, the world eaters trait seems amazing at first but really is the extra attack needed? Probably not. At which case slaneesh DP with noise marines or slaneesh oblits as backup suddenly becomes very, VERY tempting. Renegade chapter trait or alpha legion chapter trait, both options are very useful. It means we lose kharn but he isn't the end all - be all of Khorne.

Alternatively you can run a detachment of world eaters where this is strong and make the remainder of the army alpha etc. as needed. Depends if you want it fluff based or not.

Azuza001 wrote:
Well I think we should be honest here as well, the world eaters trait seems amazing at first but really is the extra attack needed? Probably not. At which case slaneesh DP with noise marines or slaneesh oblits as backup suddenly becomes very, VERY tempting. Renegade chapter trait or alpha legion chapter trait, both options are very useful. It means we lose kharn but he isn't the end all - be all of Khorne.

Honestly, the +1 attack on the charge doesn't matter. Maybe for selected units like terminators, but not for berserkers, who already have tons of hits anyway. Actually, if you really want a CC unit that is durable, fast and gets the job done, I feel that units like Magnus, Mortarion and even regular flying Daemon princes are better at getting the job done. They may not be the best at clearing chaff, but you don't use such units to clear chaff anyway. You fly OVER the chaff and charge the units that do matter, or you shoot out the chaff and then send these units in. Berzerkers are like a distraction, and possibly a fire magnet. Except that they can be conveniently ignored while they are footslogging up the field, and putting them in a Rhino then invests far too many points to get a specialised melee unit up the field.

Shooters can chose what they want to shoot (unless its a character). Melee usually can only charge whatever is in front of them and within charge range. You can say that melee can charge characters over units. But if the opponent is leaving his characters in front of his units for your melee to conveniently charge, then its just a newbie mistake by him.

So in terms of making a decent WE centred army: maybe a battalion with zerkers in rhinos, led by DPs or DAs, then an AL detachment with oblits and a sorcerer, and maybe some cultist bubble wrap in there too? Looking for “strong” rather than bleeding edge competitive really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an addendum: what’s the view on predator weapons? Mixed or full lascannon? Shooting has changed a bit since I last played so maybe HB sponsons with twin lascannon turrets would have good mileage.

Most people like their quad laz cannon preds, and they do a great job, but I really like my autocannon / hb pred. I guess it depends on your target. I use my ac/hb one for big bug hunting / swarmlord clearing and it's never let me down. But I think personally the autocannon with side laz is how I would have modeled it now days. And the difference between autocannon and dual laz on top is a point, so it's really about what you like.

But I would not go dual laz / hb sides. The autocannon is more versatile than the laz, but hb's are really only anti infantry and putting it on with laz cannons which are only anti vehicle / monster it's not got the ability to be as flexible as you may think it would be.

Azuza001 wrote:
Most people like their quad laz cannon preds, and they do a great job, but I really like my autocannon / hb pred. I guess it depends on your target. I use my ac/hb one for big bug hunting / swarmlord clearing and it's never let me down. But I think personally the autocannon with side laz is how I would have modeled it now days. And the difference between autocannon and dual laz on top is a point, so it's really about what you like.

But I would not go dual laz / hb sides. The autocannon is more versatile than the laz, but hb's are really only anti infantry and putting it on with laz cannons which are only anti vehicle / monster it's not got the ability to be as flexible as you may think it would be.

But with the ability to split fire as you see fit these days, seems like it could be? Beforehand it would’ve been an awful choice, but now seems like a decent one.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Most people like their quad laz cannon preds, and they do a great job, but I really like my autocannon / hb pred. I guess it depends on your target. I use my ac/hb one for big bug hunting / swarmlord clearing and it's never let me down. But I think personally the autocannon with side laz is how I would have modeled it now days. And the difference between autocannon and dual laz on top is a point, so it's really about what you like.

But I would not go dual laz / hb sides. The autocannon is more versatile than the laz, but hb's are really only anti infantry and putting it on with laz cannons which are only anti vehicle / monster it's not got the ability to be as flexible as you may think it would be.

But with the ability to split fire as you see fit these days, seems like it could be? Beforehand it would’ve been an awful choice, but now seems like a decent one.

You've got two Lascannons. You can add a Predator Autocannon or two Heavy Bolters. The difference in cost is two CSMs in points, or nothing in power levels.

It's not bad it's just not as good as you might be thinking.

Think about it this way. Most people give their squads and units a job. They take their units for a specific job and that is where they Excell. But when you give it 50% dedicated anti infantry and 50% dedicated anti vehicle it's not going to be able to do anything 100%. It's why I like the auto cannon/hb if I am going to go with the hb's. Against infantry that autocannon will make quick work of whatever it shoots at. And if my dedicated av unit needs someone backup the pred autocannon will do easy in a pinch (seriously I love that gun. I wish I could take more of them. S7, 2d3 shots, and 3 garunteed damage? Yes please. Granted it's Ap is only - 1 but against lighter vehicles like raiders or tyrnaid hive tyrants or carnifexs it's perfect for its job.

By giving it dual laz and hb's I just think it won't be as effective as a "can deal with any target" type of unit.

Has anyone found a use for generic troop marines? I play iron warriors and I keep trying to find a way for them to be useful. I end up using using cultists for troops in a battalion and just take berserkers in elites instead when building a list because it just seems better