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Edit: Mostly read the bottom, where the actual question is, does having more troops make you more likely to win?
the below is what got me thinking on this question.

I'm wondering if the statistics show something similar in 40k, I know all about the "MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE!" list, which tries to fill every single force org slot, but what do real actual statistics show? What are your chances of winning with...two troops, four troops, full six? Or more? (SM/IG)

Space marines can win with the minimum if they protect them well enough. also a Marine list will most likely have 4 troops minimum(combat squads)

IG need more as they are much more fragile.


i would say GEQs need 3 or more troops choices to be effective.

MEQs need no more then 2 to be effective.

Orks don't really count as they always bring a ton of troops, unless they are doing a Dred bash list of Rebel grots. same goes for nids.



GEQ and MEQ don't really rely on troops to do the Heavy lifting.

Orks and Nids use their troops to full effect.

Grey Templar is pretty much dead on... But the various armies do or don't depend on their troops choices in various ways. Some interesting cases include:

Orks Green Tide
Tyranids Horde
IG Chimera Spam
Dark Angels Deathwing
Dark Angels Ravenwing
Deathguard troops are rock hard.

...hmm, before I even got too far, the question of "Can that list really win?" popped into my mind.

...and the abilities of special characters to "unlock" troops choices is a big factor also.

Why don't we begin the flame war right now n00b...

Anyway, towards the topic at hand, it all depends on the points limit. My mechdar can perform well with only two at the 1,500 point mark, after that it gets a little stretched...

I would say most should have 1 troop choice per 500 point block.

I did a quick glance over Ard Boyz Semis reports to try and find out what lists in the top three had in them, most of them had 5-6, but also, the lists at the top also tended to use all force organization pieces (As in they had at least one of Elite-FastAttack-and Heavy Support)

Then again, in 'ard boyz you really have the room, so there's no reason to not try and take everything.

Yeah, you can win with two troops (Necrons) but it really depends on the mission, list, and opponent.

I personally would not ever play with less than three troops.

Reecius wrote:Yeah, you can win with two troops (Necrons) but it really depends on the mission, list, and opponent.

I personally would not ever play with less than three troops.

Necrons don't count as their troops suck so bad you don't want more than two of them cluttering your list

Edit: In the few of the Original Topic, Necrons don't have a very high win % anyways, even with 2 troops.

Uhh, yeah. Troops are a STRENGTH not a weakness. This is 5th ed, not 4th ed.

An imperial guard list can pack 158 models into each troops choice including 12 power weapons and 12 plasma pistols, 10 plasma guns, 5 flamers, 20 lascannons and enough meltabombs to make your eyes water. Oh, and it's all "stubborn".

... per single troops choice.

You tell me if a guard player can win with just troops...

I agree, but my point was that they are the only Army that really wants to run with only two troops choices.

Ailaros wrote:Uhh, yeah. Troops are a STRENGTH not a weakness.

I agree with you...but I'm wondering if anyone actually does win tournaments with two troops (and if they do, are they playing necrons or nob bikers?) Or if your chances of winning with 2 troops is 0? And what's the optimal number of troops?

Ive won with 0 troops by using a death company centric BA list.. Its silly but it can wipe people out fairly well :p

starbomber109 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Uhh, yeah. Troops are a STRENGTH not a weakness.

I agree with you...but I'm wondering if anyone actually does win tournaments with two troops (and if they do, are they playing necrons or nob bikers?) Or if your chances of winning with 2 troops is 0? And what's the optimal number of troops?

The only tournaments (with a showing of 12+ people) that i've won I have used two troops. Mechdar

Like I said, 1 per 500 point block seems healthy.

This topic is really vague and depends greatly on points size, army being played, mission type, scoring vs. troop selections, etc. Scoring doesn't matter in 1 basic mission, you only need 2 in another, and can get by with 2 in the third, particularly if you have large model count troops that can score 2+ objectives at once. Long answer short: yes, minimal troops can work, as can anything else, provided you're a decent enough general and they have SOME ability to survive damage.

Grey Templar wrote:i would say GEQs need 3 or more troops choices to be effective.

MEQs need no more then 2 to be effective.

I'd disagree- a single IG troop choice is a minimum of 10 men/25 if you go platoon, maximum ~150? My friends IG use 2 choices, and i have generally have tougher/better (the closer the game, the better the game imo) battles against him than my other two IG players, who would go with 3 (4 on a funny day/big game)

And when i play MEQS (CSM), at 1500+, i run a minimum of 3 troop choices. Why? survivablity and weapons. Sure Plague marines are tough as nails- But to a Leman russ shell/Basilisk, a plague marine is simply a smellier version of a marine, who's armour is like paper to a that kind of ordanance. 3 good rolls from the scatter dice, or a plasma-gun-boat vets delivery, and I'm down an expensive unit that died like grots (plague marines out of cover vs plasma, 2+ to kill- grots out of cover, 2+ to kill.) Also, those squads tend to be run with 2x melta and 1 flamer squad- oblits/vindi's provide enough AP2.

Skarboy wrote:This topic is really vague and depends greatly on points size, army being played, mission type, scoring vs. troop selections, etc. Scoring doesn't matter in 1 basic mission, you only need 2 in another, and can get by with 2 in the third, particularly if you have large model count troops that can score 2+ objectives at once. Long answer short: yes, minimal troops can work, as can anything else, provided you're a decent enough general and they have SOME ability to survive damage.

The best lists are all comers lists. Anyone with a handfull of games under their belt can quickly figure out how to run an "anti-guard/marine/ork/etc" list, but by having one list that can comfortably take all opponents is the brand of a good list/ list maker

If you've got pretty tough troops, and/or some way to protect them, you can make 2 selections work with most armies. I wouldn't recomend it over 1500 points though.

I run 5 for Tau at 2500, 3 FW(2 in fish) 2 kroot out flanking(or infiltrating if there is a dead sexy spot), does pretty well.

Ailaros wrote:Uhh, yeah. Troops are a STRENGTH not a weakness. This is 5th ed, not 4th ed.

An imperial guard list can pack 158 models into each troops choice including 12 power weapons and 12 plasma pistols, 10 plasma guns, 5 flamers, 20 lascannons and enough meltabombs to make your eyes water. Oh, and it's all "stubborn".

... per single troops choice.

You tell me if a guard player can win with just troops...

Yes, everybody knows that troops are required, in one way or another but the thing is it's a trade off with the rest of your army. Troops secure objectives but they don't kill as efficiently as other choices in the codex most of the time. Personally I am most comfortable running 3 small troops at 1500 points for Eldar, and then adding another squad (or beefing 2 half squads up) for every 500 points. But it varies from army to army ofcourse.

I think simply stating troops are a 'strength' is short sighted. Strong lists need effective troops, that is true; but troops form only a single part of a list's power. Thats the challenge, knowing where to draw the line between efficient killing power versus cheap bodies/ scoring units.

Troops are your core. They hold it all together. Also in mission games you can hold more objectives. There are more then two objectives in a game.

despoiler52 wrote:Troops are your core. They hold it all together. Also in mission games you can hold more objectives. There are more then two objectives in a game

Wrong, sort of...

There are more then two objectives in one third of your games, to should be fine, unless you run into sieze ground and you're anything but eldar or BA!

With IG you're solid. If you max your platoons that is.

i use two troop veteran squads for my vets and i get my ass kicked you need more

i use two troop veteran squads for my vets and i get my ass kicked you need more

Oh, sorry. I missed the "two" in "just two troops"

That said, I'd imagine it's very, very hard for people to win games with just two troops (unless they're guard, and crazy). All your opponent has to do is kill 20 models and they basically auto-win 2/3ds of the games.

Now that footsloggers got a boost to mobility (and in newer codecies, a price reduction), and their newfound importance to the metagame, I'd always err on the side of too many troops rather than too few.

Off topic a bit but where can you read tournament lists at?

Also I generally use at least three and even then feel bad at 2k points with my CSM. I like 3 berserkers and 1 plague marines troops but it depends if I feel like taking one troop out and spamming dreadnoughts lol.

You can be ok if your troop selection is replaced with something like bikers/terminators since they're essentially troops on steroids

I've played against a BT list a few times that consisted of only 12 marines at 1750 and 2k points. 5 marines and a marshal in a razorback, 5 marines and an emperor's champion in a razorback, 2 preds, 1 vinidicator, 6 land speeders, and 1-3 dreadnaughts of various flavors. Tough list to crack, but I sure have fun playing against it. The guy who plays that list seems to do so very well, he uses it often and wins with it often.

Edit: also, in 4th ed tyranid lists sometimes consisted of two squads of 6 (minimum size) genestealers and the rest of the list was big bugs and other nastiness.

I'm used to having low model counts, such as Death Company, GK and Necrons, but a recent Necron list of 1000pts was 36 Warriors the Deceiver and a Tomb Spyder, I was surprised at how much I could fit in. And I seem to win a lot with minimal troops. But that might be because I almost always take a special character

Zulander wrote:Off topic a bit but where can you read tournament lists at?

Also I generally use at least three and even then feel bad at 2k points with my CSM. I like 3 berserkers and 1 plague marines troops but it depends if I feel like taking one troop out and spamming dreadnoughts lol.

You can be ok if your troop selection is replaced with something like bikers/terminators since they're essentially troops on steroids

You could probably read some typical tournament lists in the battle report sections, from various areas... Redbeard and Dashofpepper have a long line of quality battle reports. Thor665 has a good bit too now that I think about it.

@Ailaros

Two troops is very easy to win games with, depending on the list, IG tend to do well with more than 20 troop models. I do absolutely fine with just 10 troop models.

1/3 of the games really, capture and control, chances are, unless you're tabled, you'll be tieing...

Footsloggers still have no place in most competitive list, they are actually less popular since 5th edition.

Is there a place where they actually keep track of lists? I assume TO's take lists from all players at the beginning of the tournament like they do in Magic The Gathering and many other games....

I tend to have 2-3 troops choices in my Marines lists (of whatever SM codex... generic or otherwise) at 2k points or less. If it is Space Wolves I include 3 as they can't combat squad (and Grey Hunters are awesome). Anything else and I tend to play 2 and then utilize combat squads when playing with lots of objectives. I've been experimenting with Blood Angles a lot recently and with them I tend to play 1 10 man Assault Squad with jump packs and then 2 smaller 5 man units in Razorbacks. I've also tried it with just 2 large assault squads, and with 3 and 4 little units in Razorbacks. I haven't had big problems with any of those setups yet, but I like the way one big unit and 2 little ones feels for the type of army I'm playing out of the BA codex.

With IG I eventually ended up with 4 units of vets at 2k points (in a mechanized list). I started with 3 but always wanted the extra scoring unit so I worked it into the list.

With anything other than marines (and Necrons), I'd play at least 3 troops choices at 2k points. At 1500 you might be able to get away with 2, but I haven't tested that at all.

As an Ork player, I couldn't imagine taking less than 1 Troop for every full 300pts (2@500, 3@1000, 5@1500, 6@2000).

I think that most armies (apart from Necrons) will have serious trouble winning with just two troops.