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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 03:00:47
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Dakka Veteran
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A Spearhead can fire one additional weapon if at cruising speed or slower.
However, the Ordinance rule says no additional weapons may be fired.
If, say, a Monolith was in a Spearhead can it fire the Particle Whip (Ordinance) and the Flux Arc (the shoot everything in 12" gun)?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 03:08:24
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Ordnance prevents the vehicle from firing any other weapons.
Being able to fire one more than normal would allow the vehicle to fire one more weapon than it can normally fire when it shoots... but firing Ordnance specifically stops it from firing anything else.
So no, your Monolith can't still can't fire anything else with the Whip.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 04:59:30
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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I am sorry Insaniak but you are incorrect.
The Spearhead rule is a special rule and that trumps the general rule of not Other weapons.
POTMS works with the Land Raider Ares (Apocalypse datasheet on GW site, a Land Raider with a Demolisher Cannon) to allow a Second weapon to be fired along with the demolisher Cannon.
Lumbering Behemoth allows a Leman russ to fire it's Turret mounted Ordnance weapons while firing all other weapons available at any given speed.
And the Spearhead rule allows 1 weapon to be fired along with the Ordnance weapon so long as another member of that particular spearhead formation is within 4".
This last one is because Normally you cannot fire any weapons along with the Ordnance weapon So value=0 And 0+1=1.
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 06:31:30
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yes but this means you are breaking the rule of 'No other weapons may fire'. Always follow the path that breaks no rules.
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"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 06:39:16
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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KKel - you are misapplyhing this rule.
The rule of "specific overrides general" is applied: Ordnance is more specific than Spearhead "may fire another weapon", and therefore you still may not fire another weapon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 06:49:41
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Kommissar Kel wrote:The Spearhead rule is a special rule and that trumps the general rule of not Other weapons.
The Spearhead rule is a special rule that applies to all vehicles, firing any weapons.
The rule limiting other weapons when firing Ordnance is a special rule that applies to all vehicles specifically when firing Ordnance weapons.
The more specific rule wins.
Or, to look at it the other way: You're specifically not allowed to fire any other weapons when firing ordnance. So, as ChrisCP mentioned, you follow the path that breaks no rule. You have one rule that allows you to fire one more weapon than normal. You have another rule that prevents you from firing any additional weapons. The only path that breaks neither of those rules is to fire no additional weapons when firing Ordnance.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/18 06:50:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 07:16:16
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
Melbourne, Australia
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yes but one could look at like this
apply the ordinance rule from the BRB - then apply the supplimentary rule from spearhead
or..
normally you cannot fire any other weapons in addition to the Ordinance then the spearhead rule allows you to fire one additional weapon
the spearhead rule over rides the BRB basically allowing you to fire one extra weapon to what you would be able to fire under normal circumstances
normal 40K = ordinance + 0
spearhead = (ordinance + 0) + 1 spearhead rule
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 07:39:53
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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It's ridiculous to say that the spearhead rule doesn't apply but PotMS which does the exact same thing would apply.
Please explain to me what is different about how specific PotMS and spearhead are when regarding ordnance firing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 07:58:58
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Lord of the Fleet
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Kommissar Kel wrote:POTMS works with the Land Raider Ares (Apocalypse datasheet on GW site, a Land Raider with a Demolisher Cannon) to allow a Second weapon to be fired along with the demolisher Cannon.
According to who? There's no mention of that on the Ares datasheet.
Kommissar Kel wrote:Lumbering Behemoth allows a Leman russ to fire it's Turret mounted Ordnance weapons while firing all other weapons available at any given speed.
Lumbering Behemoth specifically allows ordnance +1 - PotMS and Spearhead do not. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kevin949 wrote:It's ridiculous to say that the spearhead rule doesn't apply but PotMS which does the exact same thing would apply.
Please explain to me what is different about how specific PotMS and spearhead are when regarding ordnance firing.
PotMS doesn't apply - an Ares that uses the ordnance weapon will not be able to fire other weapons.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/18 07:59:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 08:01:43
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
Melbourne, Australia
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you could also argue
normal 40K = (ordinance + 0) + (1 PotMS)
spearhead = ((ordinance + 0) + (1 PotMS)) + (1 spearhead rule)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lumbering behomoth actually allows normal weapons + turret weapon (whether it is ordinance or not)
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/18 08:08:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 08:18:44
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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This is very much a case of specific vs general; While the Ordnance rule is more specific than the Move and Fire rules, or at least as it applies to what weapons are actually able to be fired given a particular speed. The Ordnance is less specific that the spearhead rule that says a vehicle meeting certain requirements may fire 1 More weapon than normally allowed.
In General you fire an Ordnance weapon and 0 other weapons maybe fired. The ordnance rules over-ride the general moving and shooting rules, to a degree(that degree based wholly on speed moved). The Spearhead rule then kicks in so long as all requirements are met allowing you to fire 1 more weapon.
1 more than 0 is 1 therefore you may fire 1 weapon and this does not exactly break any rules. I say not exactly because it does Break the Ordnance only rule but only because it allows you to. And even then it is not so much breaking the rule as it is amending it.
As I said earlier Lumbering Behemoth does the same thing, the only difference is that that author had the forethought to specifically mention Ordnance(yet not tell us what weapons are turret mounted)
What you and Nos are proposing is that You apply the Spearhead Rule at any given Speed, and then Further apply the Ordnance rule; giving you an equation more like:
Combat Speed/Fast vehicle Cruising speed= 1+(D+1*X) Where D is the number of defensive weapons, and X is a given Value of 1 or 0 depending on whether the 1 weapon fired is Ordnance.
40k does not like overly complicated equations, and order of rules application unfortunately is not defined. Our Equation should lose the Parenthesis and move the X so this:
Combat Speed/Fast vehicle Cruising speed= 1+D*X+1 Where D is the number of defensive weapons, and X is a given Value of 1 or 0 depending on whether the First weapon fired is Ordnance.
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 08:30:35
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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"so no other weapons may be fired that turn (not even defensive weapons)."
This is not the same as may only fire one weapon. What this tells us is that if ord is fired we may not fire any more weapons. So even if we met the conditions for spearhead, we could not fire the one additional weapon to normal, as if you fire Ordnance 'no other weapons may be fired that turn'.
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"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 08:38:50
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Lord of the Fleet
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Kommissar Kel wrote:As I said earlier Lumbering Behemoth does the same thing, the only difference is that that author had the forethought to specifically mention Ordnance(yet not tell us what weapons are turret mounted)
No, the author gave you explicit permission to break the ordnance rules limitation on firing other weapons - Spearhead and PotMS do not give you permission to ignore this rule.
ETA - Kel, I notice you did not respond to my question about the Ares.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/18 08:49:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 08:42:01
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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KK - no, the Ordnance rule appling to vehicles ina a Spearhead, which is a subset of all possible vehicles that could be in a spearhead, is *definitely* more specific than the Spearhead rule, which applies to *all* vehicles in 40k.
number of vehicles with Ordnance in Spearhead < total number of vehicles that can be in a Spearhead
In addition: we do not require an order of operation, In fact it relies upon it - you must satisfy the "may not fire ANY other weapon" AND "may fire an additional weapon" simultaneously; the ONLY way to do this is to fire no weapons, as one is a compulsion and the other is an option.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 08:43:52
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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Indeed. Where there is a rule saying "You may do X" and another says "You cannot do X", the only way to not break either rule is to not do X, unless the first rule specifically allows you do do so even if you cannot do X.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/18 08:46:38
Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
Looking to play some Vassal? Ring me for a game!
Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 09:31:17
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Kommissar Kel wrote: The Ordnance is less specific that the spearhead rule that says a vehicle meeting certain requirements may fire 1 More weapon than normally allowed.
The subject in question is the vehicle firing the Ordnance weapon. That being the case, a Spearhead rule that applies to all vehicles is most definitely not more specific than a rule that applies to vehicles firing Ordnance weapons.
Which refers more specifically to a vehicle firing Ordnance:
'All vehicles'?
or
'A vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon'?
1 more than 0 is 1 therefore you may fire 1 weapon and this does not exactly break any rules.
That's the problem. You're not given permission to fire 0 weapons. You're prohibited from firing any.
And no, that doesn't actually mean exactly the same thing. Being allowed to fire 0 weapons is granting permission. A rule that changes that allowance doesn't involve breaking the rule... it simply alters the permission. Being prohibited from firing a weapon is not granting permission... it is denying the ability to do something.
So you have one rule that allows you to fire one more weapon than normal, and one rule that prohibits you from firing weapons. It is impossible to do the former without breaking the latter. That leaves you, as your only option, with not firing any weapons.
As I said earlier Lumbering Behemoth does the same thing, the only difference is that that author had the forethought to specifically mention Ordnance(yet not tell us what weapons are turret mounted)
Lumbering Behemoth is not the same, specifically because it specifically mentions Ordnance. Different wording of a rule makes it a different rule. Being similar in some ways doesn't mean that you can apply the differences to the other rule.
What you and Nos are proposing is that You apply the Spearhead Rule at any given Speed, and then Further apply the Ordnance rule; giving you an equation more like:
Combat Speed/Fast vehicle Cruising speed= 1+(D+1*X) Where D is the number of defensive weapons, and X is a given Value of 1 or 0 depending on whether the 1 weapon fired is Ordnance.
I'm not using any equations. What I'm saying is that when you fire Ordnance, you can't fire any other weapons.
To allow you to fire other weapons, a rule would have to specifically over-ride the Ordnance rule. In other words, it needs to actually say that it over-rides the Ordnance rule... otherwise, it doesn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 11:34:15
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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number of vehicles with Ordnance in Spearhead < total number of vehicles that can be in a Spearhead
Vehicles in a spearhead with ordanance < Vehicles with Ordanance...
Which is more specific is definitely debatable especially as Ordanance appears in normal 40K where as Spearhead only appears in this sopecific expansion.
So even if we met the conditions for spearhead, we could not fire the one additional weapon to normal, as if you fire Ordnance 'no other weapons may be fired that turn'.
So Terminators can't assault out of Landraiders or Orks out of oppen topped vehicles. Because they have a rule that allows them to, but there is also a rule that prevents them so you break the least rules by not assaulting...
Where there is a rule saying "You may do X" and another says "You cannot do X", the only way to not break either rule is to not do X, unless the first rule specifically allows you do do so even if you cannot do X.
Which is exactly what KK is claiming the spearhead rule does.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 12:05:25
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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FlingitNow wrote:Vehicles in a spearhead with ordanance < Vehicles with Ordanance...
If you're playing a Spearhead game, what a vehicle can do outside a Spearhead game is irrelevant.
Which is more specific is definitely debatable especially as Ordanance appears in normal 40K where as Spearhead only appears in this sopecific expansion.
It's really not. If you're trying to find out if the vehicle can do something, the vehicle is the subject, not the mission. And when the vehicle is the subject, a rule that applies to all vehicles is less specific than a rule that applies to a vehicle that is firing an Ordnance weapon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 12:16:20
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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Now then to answer the OPs question instead.
The Grog wrote:A Spearhead can fire one additional weapon if at cruising speed or slower.
However, the Ordinance rule says no additional weapons may be fired.
If, say, a Monolith was in a Spearhead can it fire the Particle Whip (Ordinance) and the Flux Arc (the shoot everything in 12" gun)?
The Monitlith is allowed to fire bothe the particle whip AND the gauss flux arc in normal games even if it moves.
It has a special rule allowing it.
The energy matrix or something. Basicly fire the perticle whip or use the portal.
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"Praise Be To The Omissiah!"
"Three things make the Empire great: Faith, Steel and Gunpowder!"
Azarath Metrion Zinthos
Expect my posts to have a bazillion edits. I miss out letters, words, sometimes even entire sentences in my points and posts.
Come at me Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 12:34:37
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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VikingScott wrote:The Monitlith is allowed to fire bothe the particle whip AND the gauss flux arc in normal games even if it moves.
It has a special rule allowing it.
The energy matrix or something. Basicly fire the perticle whip or use the portal.
Erm... No, it doesn't?
It never has. All it can do is move and fire the Whip. In 3rd, this was important, as nothing else could move and fire Ordnance. Now everything can, making this rule pointless.
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Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
Looking to play some Vassal? Ring me for a game!
Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 12:36:50
Subject: Re:Spearhead & Ordinance
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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 cheating necron player decieved me...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/18 12:37:11
"Praise Be To The Omissiah!"
"Three things make the Empire great: Faith, Steel and Gunpowder!"
Azarath Metrion Zinthos
Expect my posts to have a bazillion edits. I miss out letters, words, sometimes even entire sentences in my points and posts.
Come at me Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 12:38:01
Subject: Re:Spearhead & Ordinance
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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VikingScott wrote:  cheating necron player decieved me...
I see what you did there.
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Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
Looking to play some Vassal? Ring me for a game!
Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 12:39:42
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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I think from now one I am only going post in YMDC when I own the codex instead of going off what i get told.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/18 12:39:53
"Praise Be To The Omissiah!"
"Three things make the Empire great: Faith, Steel and Gunpowder!"
Azarath Metrion Zinthos
Expect my posts to have a bazillion edits. I miss out letters, words, sometimes even entire sentences in my points and posts.
Come at me Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 12:51:05
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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I am going to Concede this; mainly by being yelled down, and being to lazy to really continue arguing.
I will however address 3 points before quitting:
1)Sorry Scott-S6; my last post was just before Bed(and I was already up too late) and you posted while I was in the middle of typing it. The Ares Datasheet Lists POTMS, and POTMS says 1 more weapon than normally allowed(possibly at a second target), so according to the POTMS.
2)My entire Basis for argument is this: Spearhead/POTMS both allow you to fire one more weapon than normal with no other qualifiers(specifically basing on speed, or damage status, or both), although at least in the case of POTMS they give examples of when this comes into effect, but then again until the Ares came out there was no way to fire Ordnance on a Land Raider at all. No weapons is equal to zero weapons allowed as a normal restriction when firing Ordnance. Spearhead/POTMS allows one more weapon than normal, so you should be able to Fire Ordnance plus 1 Weapon as that is 1 more than normally allowed.
3) Viking Scott: The Monolith Lacks any such rule; well it has Energy Matrix, but that does not allow it to fire the Whip and the Gauss Arcs. So in normal games it cannot fire Both. This is also specifically addressed on the GW FAQ for necrons. Edit: I see this was resolved while i was typing.
Finally; When Playing a Game of Spearhead or Apocalypse, I will be sure to just discuss the Issue with my opponent before the game and come to a consensus with them. This is a Game(with rather muddy wording often) I will just continue to have fun.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/18 12:52:26
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 12:57:52
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Lord of the Fleet
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Kommissar Kel wrote:1)Sorry Scott-S6; my last post was just before Bed(and I was already up too late) and you posted while I was in the middle of typing it. The Ares Datasheet Lists POTMS, and POTMS says 1 more weapon than normally allowed(possibly at a second target), so according to the POTMS.
Yes, it has PotMS. It also has an ordnance weapon that prevents you from firing any other weapon. There is no permission given to break or ignore that rule.
PotMS does allow you to ignore certain rules (cruising speed, stunned, shaken) but there is no permission given to ignore other specific prohibitions.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 13:12:01
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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If you're playing a Spearhead game, what a vehicle can do outside a Spearhead game is irrelevant.
So you're claiming if you're playing spear head no vehicles will appear that don't have spearhead?
And when the vehicle is the subject, a rule that applies to all vehicles is less specific than a rule that applies to a vehicle that is firing an Ordnance weapon.
But it doesn't apply to all vehicles it only applies to vehicles that are purchased as part of a spearhead and then remain within 4". You still seem focused on the idea that in spearhead all vehicles are suddenly given the spearhead rules. They are not only those that are part of a spearhead gain the benefit, just like not all weapons are ordanance on Ordanance weapons are. So which is more specific weapons or Vehicles...
Still a toss up as to which is more specific. However I thinl this is a more telling argument:
To allow you to fire other weapons, a rule would have to specifically over-ride the Ordnance rule. In other words, it needs to actually say that it over-rides the Ordnance rule... otherwise, it doesn't.
It certainly doesn't specifically override the ordanance rule. It is a question of whether it is considered to augment it (Ordance says normally Ordanace + 0 therefore spearhead = Ordnance +1) or whether it is a direct contradiction (Ordance = Ordnance and NEVER anything else) which would require the Spear (or indeed PotMS) to specifically address it to override it. The wording of "no other weapons may be fired that turn" to me lends itself to both readings.
I leaning towards the later but remain unconvinced by the arguments so far posted.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 13:15:27
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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Kommissar Kel wrote:
3) Viking Scott: The Monolith Lacks any such rule; well it has Energy Matrix, but that does not allow it to fire the Whip and the Gauss Arcs. So in normal games it cannot fire Both. This is also specifically addressed on the GW FAQ for necrons. Edit: I see this was resolved while i was typing.
Without the FAQ what would the ruleing on the monolith be?
Maybe my opponent just didn't have the FAQ.
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"Praise Be To The Omissiah!"
"Three things make the Empire great: Faith, Steel and Gunpowder!"
Azarath Metrion Zinthos
Expect my posts to have a bazillion edits. I miss out letters, words, sometimes even entire sentences in my points and posts.
Come at me Heretic. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 13:24:17
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Without the FAQ the ruling would be the same. The Matrix is Ordnance, and as has been referenced here several times already, if you fire Ordnance you may not fire any other weapons, barring a special rule similar to Lumbering Behemoth that specifically states you may fire weapons in additions to Ordnance.
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Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 13:28:27
Subject: Spearhead & Ordinance
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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FlingitNow wrote:So you're claiming if you're playing spear head no vehicles will appear that don't have spearhead?
No, I'm not.
But it doesn't apply to all vehicles it only applies to vehicles that are purchased as part of a spearhead and then remain within 4".
... and unless that's a more specific group of vehicles than 'vehicles firing an Ordnance weapon' it's less specific.
Any vehicle that fits into that category gains a rule allowing it to fire one more weapon than normal.
Within the group comprised of 'vehicles subject to the Spearhead rule' you will have some vehicles with Ordnance weapons. Not all vehicles have Ordnance weapons, nor does the Spearhead rule apply only to or specifically to vehicles with Ordnance weapons.
So vehicles with Ordnance weapons are a more specific group than vehicles with the Spearhead rule.
Ordance says normally Ordanace + 0
I already addressed this.
The Ordnance rules do not grant permission to fire 'x' number of weapons. They forbid you from firing any other weapons.
So you don't have a permitted quantity to add to. You have a blanket ban on firing anything other than the Ordnance weapon.
VikingScott wrote:Without the FAQ what would the ruleing on the monolith be?
It would be the same. The FAQ merely clarified the situation.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/18 13:29:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 13:29:52
Subject: Re:Spearhead & Ordinance
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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VikingScott wrote:  cheating necron player decieved me...
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"Praise Be To The Omissiah!"
"Three things make the Empire great: Faith, Steel and Gunpowder!"
Azarath Metrion Zinthos
Expect my posts to have a bazillion edits. I miss out letters, words, sometimes even entire sentences in my points and posts.
Come at me Heretic. |
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