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nosferatu1001 wrote:Kevin -no, it sets a restriction (moving UP TO cruising speed) but gives no allowance to fire additional weapons AT cruising speed.

Unlike PotMS.

I'm simply saying that BOTH the rules for cruising speed and the rules for ordnance state you cannot fire any weapons. neither state you can fire 0.
And when something states "up to" it includes the end of that. So, "up to" cruising speed is up to 12 inches. 12.1 inches is no longer cruising speed just as 6.1 inches is no longer combat speed. I don't see why you're getting so particular about spearhead and potms when they're the same thing. *Shrug* Otherwise I would say that if a vehicle moved0-5.9 inches and 6.1-11.9 inches they could not use potms, by your definition.

Except PotMS gives Cruising Speed as an example where you CAN fire an additional weaspon.

Spearhead does not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except PotMS gives Cruising Speed as an example where you CAN fire an additional weaspon.

Spearhead does not.

And example would mean it is not limited to, which means ordnance would work. But then you'll just say no because it doesn't specify. So it can't be specific AND vague at the same time...

Also, yes spearhead does as it states it in the description. *shakes head*

Sigh.

Apparently you are confused here:

spearhead rule wrote:
• Vehicles other than Walkers, that are moving at up to
cruising speed, can fire one more weapon than would
normally be permitted. In addition, this weapon can be
fired at a different target unit to any other weapons,
subject to the normal rules for Shooting. Note that
vehicles which are moving flat out may not take
advantage of this rule.

Explain in there how you are given permission to fire EVEN IF you cannot fire ANY weapons. It doesnt.

Fast Vehicles CAN fire weapons at cruising speed so CAN fire one more weapon than the normal 1.

PotMS on the hand EXPLICITLY STATES it can fire 1 weapon after moving at Cruising Speed. Not an example, an explicit statement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except PotMS gives Cruising Speed as an example where you CAN fire an additional weaspon.

Spearhead does not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sigh.

Apparently you are confused here:

spearhead rule wrote:
• Vehicles other than Walkers, that are moving at up to
cruising speed, can fire one more weapon than would
normally be permitted. In addition, this weapon can be
fired at a different target unit to any other weapons,
subject to the normal rules for Shooting. Note that
vehicles which are moving flat out may not take
advantage of this rule.

Explain in there how you are given permission to fire EVEN IF you cannot fire ANY weapons. It doesnt.

Fast Vehicles CAN fire weapons at cruising speed so CAN fire one more weapon than the normal 1.

PotMS on the hand EXPLICITLY STATES it can fire 1 weapon after moving at Cruising Speed. Not an example, an explicit statement.

I'm not confused on anything. Is it an example or is it specific? BOTH rules of ordnance and cruising speed state you can not fire ANY weapons. BOTH spearhead and POTMS say that a vehicle moving up to cruising speed may fire one additional weapon.

Spearhead specifically states that moving flat out denies the rule, but why wouldn't it just say that for cruising speed as well if it was meant to not work at 12 inch movement?

So it works at cruising speed, which says you can't fire any weapons...so does ordnance...so lets say you move 6 inches, fire ordnance, then one more weapon...that way you're only breaking one "can't fire any weapons" rule per spearhead. Same can be said for PotMS.

about the lith, the whip is not a weapon but rather a special rule

i say any vehicle regardless of being fast or not can fire at least one weapon using the spearhead rule at cruising speed.. because one more than none is one

- fast vehicles at cruising speed can fire two weapons
- normal vehicles that have move combat speed can fire two weapons
- vehicles that fire ordinance or moved at combat speed and fired ordinance can fire +1 weapon due to spearhead
- i would even go as far as to say vehicles that have PotMS can fire an additional weapon using the spearhead rule

all the scenarios listed are firing one extra weapon than the vehicle normally would in a normal game of 40K

i think you have to apply the spearhead rule to the vehicle after all its shooting has been resolved for the vehicle following its normal abilities and 40k rules

this is the process i will be using:

(40k rules + vehicle abilities) + spearhead


Automatically Appended Next Post:
not being able to fire = 0

Phase wrote:about the lith, the whip is not a weapon but rather a special rule

Mm, I'd say the power matrix is a special rule but the whip is definitely a weapon. I believe it is even classified under the armory and in the weapons section of the codex.

KEvin - yes you are "confused", or just not reading the applicable rules correctly.

Spearhead does not contain permission to fire a weapon when you cannot fire "any". ALL it states is that you can fire "one more weapon than normal" when travelling up to cruising speed.

PotM spirit on the other hand *specifically states a vehicle moving at cruising speed can fire 1 weapon* - not an example, but permission to do so.

One rule gives permkission to fire even when you cannot fire "any", one rule doesn't

Catachan - ify ou had read the rest of the thread you would have seen why your "not fire any = 0" is incorrect. One denies permission, one provides permission.

ok i am playing a normal game of 40k

i move my preditor 7 inches (cruising speed).. it is armed with auto cannon, and hvy bolter sponsons

in my shooting phase how many of these weapons can i fire?

As you are a fast vehicle that has move at cruising speed you are allowed to fire one weapon and plus (+) all defensive weapons.

nosferatu1001 wrote:KEvin - yes you are "confused", or just not reading the applicable rules correctly.

Spearhead does not contain permission to fire a weapon when you cannot fire "any". ALL it states is that you can fire "one more weapon than normal" when travelling up to cruising speed.

PotM spirit on the other hand *specifically states a vehicle moving at cruising speed can fire 1 weapon* - not an example, but permission to do so.

One rule gives permkission to fire even when you cannot fire "any", one rule doesn't

Catachan - ify ou had read the rest of the thread you would have seen why your "not fire any = 0" is incorrect. One denies permission, one provides permission.

Ok, whatever dude, you seem to know more about my state of mind than I do. *Shrug* Keep thinking what you want, but you can't get your "facts" straight and you can't stick to one statement and constantly change your wording. You're taking rules lawyering to an extremely ridiculous level, and you're wrong in your interpretation of the rules because you're failing to realize that EVERY situation discussed has revolved around not being able to fire any weapons. So go ahead and pick and choose and make sure the SM don't get out-advantaged by any other army. *Shakes head*

I'm out of this convo.

Pointless posts are pointless.

You seemed convinced that Spearhead contains rules for firing even when you cannot fire any weapons, when it does not - it simply allows you to use the rule "up to cruising speed" - which is not the same thing at all.

PotMS on the other hand, if you had bothered to read the rule, specifically states you CAN fire 1 weapon while at cruising speed - which is appropriate as the LR is not Fast.

They are not equivalent, as one carries specific permission and one does not. And this game comes down to permission.

I also love that you think I want to make sure SM win....given I play Chaos and we dont *have* PotMS. Still, nice projection and attempt at a strawman there!

Chris - I thought Preds were not fast, unless they were Baal Preds - in which case you can fire no weapons if you move at 6"+, even with Spearhead.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Chris - I thought Preds were not fast, unless they were Baal Preds - in which case you can fire no weapons if you move at 6"+, even with Spearhead.

Quite right~! I was stuck in BA mode, cheers for the heads-up

No worries, it's those fast vindicators of yours that are nasty....

Fast Vindicators... THAT DON'T SCATTER!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Pointless posts are pointless.

PotMS on the other hand, if you had bothered to read the rule, specifically states you CAN fire 1 weapon while at cruising speed - which is appropriate as the LR is not Fast. .

Read PotMS again - the rule is that it can fire one additional weapon more than normal.. the part where you are referring to in regards to it spefically allowing the LR to fire atm cruising speed starts with the word "Therefore".. which to me is where the explaination of how the rule is intended to work not part of the rule itself

nosferatu1001 wrote:Chris - I thought Preds were not fast, unless they were Baal Preds - in which case you can fire no weapons if you move at 6"+, even with Spearhead.

ok i will reword the question again to be more specific.. if in a NORMAL game of 40k i move my SM Pred 7" (cruising speed) how many weapons can i fire out of the turret auto cannon and the hvy bolter sponsons??

Do you own the LRB Devil? Cos there's a wounderful table at the bottom of page 73 that has the information you're asking for displayed in such a readily understandable way - I think the information you seek, is from memory on row one column three.

lol i know the answer i have the BRB (not being snappy)

if the question i posted was asked to me - i and i am sure many others would answer 0/none/may not fire any

therefore spearhead which allows you to fire one more the is normally allowed (as above) would then allow you to fire 1 weapon as long as the spearhead guidelines are met (being within 4" of another spearhead member)

Yet you are told you may fire 'No Weapons' so if you're told you may fire your Thundercougarfalconbird gun. But your also told you may fire 'No Weapons' then you're breaking the rule that you may not fire weapons { }+1=/=1 .
However if one had moved at combat speed then one may fire 1 Weapon 1+1=2 *Plus all defensive weapons.

then by what you are saying PotMS does not work for LR moving at cruising speed, stunned or shaken

normal rules = ()
spearhead rules = {}

(0) + {1} = 1

you are not breaking any rules = spearhead rules are applied after the normal rules have been applied and the amount of weapons under the normal rule have been determined

spearhead is the same as PotMS it only has the condition that another member of the spearhead be within 4"

Are you still firing no weapons? If not you're breaking a rule. We can't help the language that is used.

so you are also stating that a shaken, stunned or moving at cruising speed LR cannot fire using PotMS

Very well, as vocalised before - various versions of the vexing PotMS specifically deal with 'Crew Stunned' and 'Crew Shaken' results. See BA codex (page 37) for an example.

POTMS rule from pg37. BA codex:

the vehicle can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted, in addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting.

the next part is the explaination of how it works:

THEREFORE a vehicle that has moved at combat speed can fire two weapons, a vehicle that has either moved at cruising speed, or has suffered a 'Crew Stunned' or 'Crew Shaken' result can fire a single weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the PotMS actual rule wording does not give any more permission than the Spearhead rule does

the second part of the text is not the actual rule rather an explaination of how it works

Or it could be granting permission.
I am 18+ in Aust. Therefore I may drink.

I am BA PotMS Therefore I may fire even when stunned or shaken.

Your parsing of the rule into two different sections is irrelevant - it's all rules text, under a rules heading. It's not fluff brah - it's as you say how it works, on page 37 of the Ba codex.

If I was not told this I would not draw my otherwise erroneous conclusion of ‘I can fire extra weapons when I’m told I’m not allowed to fire any weapons’.

the spearhead rule gives you permission to break the normal rules - otherwise you would not be allowed to use spearhead at combat speed to fire 2 weapons and all defensive weapons either as the BRB only allows you to fire 1 weapon + defensive

i love how you are justifying it not working at cruising speed due to breaking the "may not fire any weapons" rule in the BRB

but you state it works at combat speed allowing you to fire two weapons dispite it clearly breaking "may fire one weapon + defensive weapons" rule in the BRB

a bit of a double standard - no matter how you look at it you will be breaking a rule

using spearhead to fire at cruising speed or in combination with Ordinance weapons in not breaking anymore rules than using it to fire an additional weapon at combat speed - all of the scenarios only break one rule

Catachan_Devil wrote:
but you state it works at combat speed allowing you to fire two weapons dispite it clearly breaking "may fire one weapon + defensive weapons" rule in the BRB

As you put it yourself.
"May fire one (1) weapon + all def Wep (n)"
'May fire one Wep + all def weapon + one additional weapon (either PotMS or SH)'
'1+n+1=2+n'

Catachan_Devil wrote:POTMS rule from pg37. BA codex:

the vehicle can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted, in addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting.

the next part is the explaination of how it works:

THEREFORE a vehicle that has moved at combat speed can fire two weapons, a vehicle that has either moved at cruising speed, or has suffered a 'Crew Stunned' or 'Crew Shaken' result can fire a single weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the PotMS actual rule wording does not give any more permission than the Spearhead rule does

the second part of the text is not the actual rule rather an explaination of how it works

Yep! It really can't be any clearer than that. Everything after the "Therefore..." is just showing how the POTMs rule is applied in a couple of different situations, but not necessarilly all possible situations.

i agree but as you put it:

combat speed:
1 + defensive (+ 1 spearhead)

clearly breaks the 1 + defensive weapons rule

you dont have permission to fire more than one weapon + defensive at combat speed in the BRB so you cannot use the spearhead rule

it is the same arguement you are using to prevent 1 weapon being fired at cruising speed using the spearhead rule