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So, given that it seems to be the thing to do, I figured I'd throw out my tweaked 2k High Elves list for 8th Edition.

Still going for the "Caledor" theme from before.

HEROES (18.25%)
Noble - 147
barded steed, dragon armor, Helm of Fortune, Sword of Might

Noble - 218
barded steed, dragon armor, shield, lance, BSB - Battle Banner (Not sure how good the Battle Banner is now given the increase # of Stubborn units)


CORE (25.75%)
30x Spearelves - 295
full command

15x Lothern Sea Guard - 220
full command, shields

SPECIAL (43.5%)
5x Dragon Princes - 215
full command, Banner of Ellyrion (BoE will hopefully let them pass through terrain with no trouble with FAQ/Erratas).

5x Dragon Princes - 160
musician

15x Phoenix Guard - 325
full command, skeinsliver, Blade Standard (unit gains Armor Piercing)

2x Tiranoc Chariots - 170

RARE (12.5%)
2x RBT - 200
1x Great Eagle - 50

2k on the dot.


The Spears and PG are the clear anvils of the list. DP units will hopefully tag-team with the Chariots to hit flanks. LSG will be flexible, opting to shoot or attack as needed, while remaining a credible threat.

With the Blade Standard (I think that's the name), they'll be quite nasty. 10 S4 -2sv attacks that will be re-rollable at WS5. Added to that, fear and their 4+ Ward and they'll be something to avoid.

The only issue is that there is no magic support whatsoever for these guys now.

If I read the 8th edition rumor threads correct... you can up to 25% lords, and 25% heros? So load up? Whats the difference on dispell dice by having or not having at least one mage? I can't imagine playing fantasy without magic... seems odd

The only issue being that given HE heroes' T3 and relatively lack-luster armor, coupled with the increased number of attacks everyone gets, I get the feeling our heroes will be too vulnerable to take en-masse. In the end, for the price of one kitted out hero, I can get ~5 Dragon princes.

I've never been too keen on magic-heavy (again, I prefer the Caledor theme). In terms of Dispel Dice, as far as I can discern, there's no difference, barring having +lvl added to your dispelling attempts and the chance to take a single DS from having one mage and no mage, and considering the points cost of even a level one, I'd rather have more troops on the field. Omitting the mage will be touchy....but not nearly as fatal as it was in 7th, I think.

Mounts and riders are combining their statistics together in 8th...

Fighting elf characters should be riding monsters.

Give your dragon your 2+ rerollable armor save and 4+ ward, and he'll give you his T5-7.

As awesome as chariots are... if you have dragon princes, then you are covered on that front. I think chariots are better than dragon princes, but as that is in theme. You just need the one, IMO. You could use the points to buy a mini-dragon lord.

Its really unfortunate that archers aren't more exciting, as I'd advise taking them if they weren't overcosted and underarmored. I'm skeptical about sea guard, but it is nice to have some bows available to scare away fast cav and flyers.

phoenix guard are looking to be pretty nasty in 8th, so even though they might not be 'from caledor' I think they are a nice addition here.

I was under the impression that you always take the rider's T value with that rule (haven't read that one personally yet, so I'm still uncertain about it)?

As awesome as chariots are... if you have dragon princes, then you are covered on that front. I think chariots are better than dragon princes, but as that is in theme. You just need the one, IMO. You could use the points to buy a mini-dragon lord.

I'm a bit confused with this recommendation. Are you suggesting I drop a chariot or one of the DP units?

Re: archers - They're not as overcosted as they were before (firing in extra ranks + ASF bonuses definitely beef them up) but are still overpriced compared to other core shooting units, imo. Honestly, I had a unit of 10 in the list, but I would much rather have the extra bodies in my Specials than Archers.

I'm kind of excited about the prospect of LSG. Everything new for combat seems to take care of the issues that they had in 7th Edition. They may still be a bit over-priced, but I'm pretty confident that they'll prove themselves as reliable threats (same amount of shooting as a 10x archer unit, but MUCH deadlier and with armor to boot!) all at the expense of 6" of range.

Re: Phoenix Guard - Yeah....not quite from Caledor but, fluff-wise, they just come and go as needed so it's not unreasonable for them to join up with some battle here and there to ensure things go as they are fated

.

My recommendation is to cut the dragon princes and have a dragon riding hero.

But since you are going the 'dragonprince' theme. I don't think you'll need the chariots hitting power. You'll have some cav standing by to bat cleanup. So drop the chariots.

Either way, I'm just saying that mounted elves seem to be really good with this new combined statline rule (they were already good) And to get the points for a sun dragon or something, you could stand to lose the chariots or the cav.

And agreed on the LSG. I can't wait to see them get some table time and hear how they work out. Because although i am hesitant.... 30 LSG seem just plain better than 20 archers and 20 spearmen.

Either way, I'm just saying that mounted elves seem to be really good with this new combined statline rule

Once you get time to check, let us know of exactly which stats/abilities are shared and how shooting/melee attacks against ridden monsters are resolved. I'm not sure I like the idea of even my own Dragon having access to a 1+ armor save and "2+ ward save". It's just too ridiculous.

I like the DPs- they'll still be great at killing, even though they're not breaking ranks now. I was under the impression that heroes on monstrous creatures were going to decline, due to cannons striking both the rider and the mount, or something? Total rumor there, sorry- I'll try to look into this next time I get to see the book.

Personally, I would consider dropping the first noble (not the BSB, which is almost a requirement now- you get to reroll all leadership based tests within 12" I believe) and something else, to try to get a level 4 mage... otherwise the "winds of magic" are blowing right by you and going to waste . But I understand you're not that into magic, and this list has a great theme. It just looks to be quite devastating, as you'll always have more PD than your opponent (and I've said this before, but I love banner of sorcery on the phoenix guard to get even more) in this edition, and they only get to take one scroll. It could also force them to come to you, since right now, only your RBTS are really doing that.

Maybe add in the mage for 2500?

Ok, just got back from the store...

Debunked on rider mount stat sharing...

Here is how it works..

When shooting randomize hits 1-4 mount 5-6 rider.

in melee you can freely choose who to attack.

template weapons hit both rider and mount, but cannons do not. The book specified template weapons which generally just means the teardrop, but i think its safe to say that small and large blast markers (what are they called in fantasy?) would be included, which frankly doesn't really matter that much. Strength 3 stone throwers or strength 5 terbuchets/helblaster rocket batteries aren't going to hurt T6 dragons enough to worry.

+1 to hit for large target is gone, and +1 armor save for riding a mount is IN.

The BSB rumor on it working on all leadership based tests is legit. It does indeed work on everything. (Cold ones are happier now)

Therion I just PMed you a clarfication on your banner query...

Shep wrote:Ok, just got back from the store...

Debunked on rider mount stat sharing...

I have a feeling this was confused with the fact that cavalry have a rule to this effect.

Platuan4th wrote:

Shep wrote:Ok, just got back from the store...

Debunked on rider mount stat sharing...

I have a feeling this was confused with the fact that cavalry have a rule to this effect.

That makes perfect sense...

Yup, read the book now and Ridden Monsters do not share stats. Even if they did, they would still be using the character's toughness. Probably a confusion more with Monstrous Cavalry than anything else (that section was admittedly confusing if only for the introduction of the new unit-type). I think cannon balls strike both.

Having had a chance to read through the rules now....I'm even more disinclined to run a Dragon Lord.

Shooting is more prevalent and with 6's always being able to wound, you can bet that a Sun Dragon will go down sooner than later, even with T6. Additionally, now flyers have a move of 10" with a march of 20"...so it seems that these guys can actually be march-blocked now. I think there was a rumor of being able to March even if near an enemy unit if you pass a LD check...but it seems....less than ideal. Ultimately, especially at 2k, I don't think that the points really justify losing out on a BSB (HUGE bonus to an army - it'll be really daft to not have one) and extra bodies/attacks.

It does feel weird not having a mage, but I'm not sure what to drop without taking a sizeable drop in combat power (granted, this is from a 7th edition perspective).

Thinking about things, though....I wonder if the Battle Banner is as worthwhile now. That could be 80 points right there that could free up for _something_.

For the new edition as HE you need:

less calvary (unless they are light calvary)

Big or lots of units of spearmen (a slowed amount of attacks in this edition)!!!!!!

Also your list is lacking magic defense =/

Well, some magic defense comes built in with the winds of magic giving you some dispel dice. If you do decide to go for your own caster, that will buff your defense (by adding his level to the roll) though. For the price, in this edition I think a single level 4 caster can be much more effective than in 7th (since the opponent can't just take 4 dispel scrolls and block his big spell for most of the game). I think it's a good buy!

Dropping the first noble, and adding an archmage with annulian crystal and a dispel scroll (320) and a rank to the Phoenix Guard (75) puts you at 2248 . (And here's one more vote for banner of sorcery to make it even scarier . I think this edition will be all about having just a big more PD than your opponent has DD, and that helps give you that edge, while the crystal takes it away from your opponent)

@Callum - Cavalry still have speed and stronger attacks to their benefit (Highest 2 of 3D6" + 8 move for roughly 15" average charge), and while they cannot negate ranks, still can get the rank bonus and deal out a lot of attacks (and with ASF and I6, they'll be getting re-rolls against pretty much most units).

I am considering dropping a chariot or two however. Given the power boost (effective) of my infantry blocks, I may not need _as_ much additional damage as before.

As I mentioned, yes, it was a bit of a conscious decision to not include a mage, but the way I see it is that a defense mage isn't quite as needed as it was in 7th Ed. (Since you always get DD = Highest of 2D6 your opponent rolls for PD).

@RiTides, then this wouldn't be a 2k list, would it? .

I think this edition will be all about having just a big more PD than your opponent has DD, and that helps give you that edge, while the crystal takes it away from your opponent)

Doesn't make it terribly different from before then, heh. The main reservation I have against Mages is their unpredictability and my propensity for rolling phenomenally poorly (I think I'm batting about .500 at miscasting with mages on the first Magic Roll in 7th, currently). As it stands, however, if I drop both chariots, I can fit in a naked Level 2 mage in with some spare points to buff up the LSG a bit more while keeping the first Noble (Really has helped in the past to push CR in my favor).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quick edited list:

HEROES (24.6%)
Noble - 149
barded steed, dragon armor, shield, Helm of Fortune, Sword of Might

Noble - 198
barded steed, dragon armor, shield, lance, BSB - Banner of the World Dragon

Mage - 145
lvl2, Silver Wand; High Magic


CORE (27.7%)
30x Spearelves - 295
full command

18x Lothern Sea Guard - 259
full command, shields

SPECIAL (36%)
5x Dragon Princes - 215
full command, Banner of Ellyrion (BoE will hopefully let them pass through terrain with no trouble with FAQ/Erratas).

5x Dragon Princes - 160
musician

15x Phoenix Guard - 325
full command, skeinsliver, Blade Standard (unit gains Armor Piercing)

RARE (12.5%)
2x RBT - 200
1x Great Eagle - 50

1996 on the dot.

Instead of D6 extra CR, the BSB now provides immunity to spells to the unit he's in (could be VERY big).

At the loss of 2 Chariots, I can get a Lvl2 Mage that can know 3 spells, probably choosen from High Magic Lore (Drain Magic can be spammed more easily now and can really get rid of enemy casting bonuses). +3 to Dispel doesn't hurt either.

I think that's a good exchange... you'll definitely get your points back for the mage most of the time in the help he'll give you with magic defense. I like the changes

I'm thinking Banner of the World Dragon will be the "Go-to" Banner for the High Elves now. Making a unit immune to all spell-effects seems really hard to pass up after re-examining the Battle Banner. (Saved 20 points too!)

Welp, now that the Errata has hit, figured I'd tweak this a bit:

HEROES (19.15%)
Noble - 198
barded steed, dragon armor, shield, lance, BSB - Banner of the World Dragon

Mage - 145
lvl2, Silver Wand; High Magic

CORE (32.6%)
30x Spearelves - 315
full command, War Banner

24x Lothern Sea Guard - 337
full command, shields

SPECIAL (38.25%)
11x Dragon Princes - 395
full command, Banner of Ellyrion

18x Phoenix Guard - 370
full command, skeinsliver, Blade Standard (unit gains Armor Piercing)

RARE (10%)
1x RBT - 100
2x Great Eagle - 100

2000 on the dot.

I could potentially drop the number of Core guys to hit the minimum points needed (or thereabouts) which could allow me to get a second mage, or something else to buff up the list.


As a completely side thought, what with the introduction of the Elite Army Rule and the rumors of plastic Dragon Princes in the not too distant future, I figured I'd try out a real Caledorian force:

HEROES (18.65%)
Noble - 188
DP kit, BSB, Guardian Phoenix, Helm of Fortune

Mage - 185
lvl2, Silver Wand, Ring of Fury

CORE(25.1%)
24x Spearelves - 261
full command, War Banner

24x Spearelves - 241
full command

SPECIAL (39.25%)
11x Dragon Princes - 405
full command, Drakemaster - Sceeching Blade (bearer causes fear), Banner of Ellyrion

6x Dragon Princes - 190
Musician

6x Dragon Princes - 190
Musician

6x Dragon Princes - 190
Musician

RARE (7.5%)
3x Great Eagles - 150

2000 points on the dot.
Clearly, mostly a themed/gimmick list. I would consider dropping a unit, and/or splitting up the big unit. Dropping a unit would net me some points to get a second mage to help buff up the DPs and splitting up the big unit would be nice in providing too many targets for the opponent to take out. Main obvious issue with this list being it's susceptibility to larger infantry blocks, but it'd be fairly awesome to field that many knights again .

Looks cool . Will have to see how things go in terms of people running huge blocks, but it would be a refreshingly different list!

Is the warbanner only 20 points for high elves (the one in the spearelves unit)? Also, why 24 to each unit? I would have thought you'd run them 5-wide (maybe you're saving room for the mage, though).

Discount Common Magic Items, courtesy of being Pointy-eared and dainty .

I'm planning on running my elves 6-wide as a nice medium between maximizing attacks while still collecting ranks (also, had to meet the 25% min)