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Ok I know what Imperial Fists are but what I don't know is how do you go about making a fluffy yet competitive Fist list?

I was thinking using multiples of terminators, sternguard, and three vindicators. Is that the right track so far?

I'd say a good imperial fist company wouldnt NOT use vindicators... they are more for seige breaking, rather than fortification. Imperial fists are masters of defense. Thus, I'd suggest focusing on the following unit types:

HQ: Lysander... the fist's best captain.
HQ: Master of the forge (fortification of terrain + conversion beamer smack of fortified emplacements)

Elites: Terminators (shooty kind, so lysander can catch lascannon rounds and give them re-roll on bolter shots)
Elites: Techmarines (again, fortification)

Troops: duh.. tac marines

Fast: nope.

Heavy: whirlwinds, Predators (they could be dug in, they have good range), and thunderfires. as well as devastators.

IF do plenty of siege breaking as well. They kinda got pushed into the general "dealing with fortifications" role when the vastly superior Iron Warriors went traitor. Vindicators would fit.

Honersstodnt wrote:I'd say a good imperial fist company wouldnt NOT use vindicators... they are more for seige breaking, rather than fortification. Imperial fists are masters of defense. Thus, I'd suggest focusing on the following unit types:

HQ: Lysander... the fist's best captain.
HQ: Master of the forge (fortification of terrain + conversion beamer smack of fortified emplacements)

Elites: Terminators (shooty kind, so lysander can catch lascannon rounds and give them re-roll on bolter shots)
Elites: Techmarines (again, fortification)

Troops: duh.. tac marines

Fast: nope.

Heavy: whirlwinds, Predators (they could be dug in, they have good range), and thunderfires. as well as devastators.

Bad bad bad!

They do perform sieges...

The vindicator also is a defensive tank (rules-wise, maybe not, depending on the opponent...)...

I take three vindicators in my imperial fists, three squads of tactical marines, a land raider with Lysander and assault marines.

Sternguard with Lysander are also a fluffy addition.

Imperial fists are NOT hurr, sit there and shoot them...

yes, they do perform sieges, but so do all chapters. However, the fists are best known for their unbreakable fortifications. all chapters do all aspects of war, but some are better known for things than others. the iron warriors were known as the masters of siegecraft. Which is why it was cool when they attacked the imperial palace. It was like the unstoppable force meets the immovable object.

Honersstodnt wrote:It was like the unstoppable force meets the immovable object.

Yes it was very similar to the "unstoppable" Juggernaut running into the "immovable" Blob, if i recall correctly both events resulted in the end of all life as we knew it.

Do not remember the source, though imperial fists performed a seige on the iron warriors and won.

Either way, three vindicators ARE fluffy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So here is a tentative list for Imperial Fists

HQ ?????

Elite: CC Terminators in LR Crusader w/ MM

Troop: 2x Tac with Flamer Heavy Bolter and Razorback

Fast: 3x Typhoon Land Speeders

Heavy: 3x Vindicators
---------------------------------
1505/1750

Questions:
1)Do I need Lysander or Pedro?
1.1)Should I drop the CC termies for either regular termies or Sternguard to take advantage of Lysander's Bolter Drill?
2) Should I take some assault troops as counter charge unit?
3) Should I replace the Tac squad flamer with a melta?

1) Take Lysander. Pedro Kantor is the Crimson Fist chapter master, not an Imperial Fist. Plus, with no Sternguard squads, he isn't at his most effective. Stick Lysander with a squad of shooty Terminators, so they can re-roll those storm bolters. Get them a Cyclone ML, as well.

1.1) See above.

2) No. Doing the above is overall the best recommendation I can make, and you wouldn't have the points left over.

3. You've got alot of AV already. I think you'll be okay. I would recommend swapping the Heavy Bolters for Missile Launchers, though. They've got a lot more versatility than heavy bolters, since they can kill infantry and most kinds of armor.

So no thunder hammer sexiness for my Imperial Fists :*(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is it an effective all comers at 1750? i think it has promise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I hate to say it but Vulkan with CC termies, although unfluffy as far as IF goes and much more beardy, is more competitive i think

No doubt. Vulkan/Salamander lists are the most effectiv build the C:SM can still do. What exactly are your motivations for doing Imperial Fists? Maybe Salamanders would be a better choice? Failing that, you can always do a Vulkan "counts as" by converting a new model.

I am in the mood to build a very visually impressive and clean looking SM army. I've seen some beautiful Imperial Fist armies on Dakka and thought that it might fit the bill.

I would definitely make a counts-as for Vulkan.

My 1,750 list ditches the typhoons for another squad of tactical marines in a rhino.

And my HQ is Lysander in a redeemer with thundernators.

Meh, bolter drill is nice, though just because you have it, doesn't mean you need to use it. He already has CC beastliness... and tactical terminators in a land raider seems like a waste to me... /shrug

good looks inquisitor_syphonious

Dont take HB as a heavy wepon, go with the ML instead. Its much more versitile and free as well.

As for the list, while Im a big proponent of using "counts as" Without Lysander I dont really see this army as anything but a standard vanilla army. So what you need to consider is do you want a fluffy army for the loss of some effictiveness or do you do as I do and simply play the effective/fun units? If you do I would simply take a Librarian as HQ choice. Whill Lysander is a beast in CC he also removes Combat tactics and will be less useful than Null Zone hood..on top os this he costs 100pts more than a plain libby.

I love libbis for their versatility. I have been using them as my HQ choices in all my lists for the last 3 years.

My friend convinced me to use MM in my tacs so that they can sit on home objectives and will not be tank shocked off. I think it makes the combat squad far more effective at its objective.

I use Imperial Fists too. If you want a special character go Lysander; but he isn't a must. Fists like Librarians and in the stories I've read always have Libbies attached to companies so I would take one of those. A Chaplain and MOTF would fit Fists fine and make good HQ choices.

Thunder hammer Terminators are fight up the Fists street. So are Techmarines and Dreadnoughts too.

Tacticals I'd take; probably leave the Scouts but they don't have many of them fomr what I've read; I'd take 5 Scouts maybe.

Fast Attack I use Land Speeders. I haven't read about Fists using them or any F.A units but they're a codex Chapter so why not.

Pretty much anything in the heavy support is probably their bag.

Here's the List--

HQ: Vulkan

Elite: CC Terminators in LR Crusader w/ MM

Troop: 2x Tac with Flamer MM and Razorback with Las/Plas

Fast: 3x Typhoon Land Speeders

Heavy: 3x Vindicators

I suppose it is straightforward. I have never run anything like this before though so it will be new to me.

Here's my issue: Vulkan's chapter tactics replaces combat tactics! Uh oh, my favorite thing about marines it gone. Should I get rid of the razor backs? Full 10 man squads gaining free special/heavy that is twin linked is too good to pass up so should I run them in Rhinos?

How do you run tacticals in a Vulkan list?

My 1500pt Imperial Fist (based mostly on AoBR models) list is:

HQ:
Captain w/Digital weapon, relic blade and Bolter

Elites:
5x Assault Marines w/3 Thunder hammers & Storm Shields, 2 Lightning Claws in a dedicated Land Raider Redeemer w/MM.

Troops:
2x10 Marines with Flamer and Missile Launcher in Rhino

Heavy Support:
1x Land Raider w/MM
2xVindicator Tanks w/Dozer Blades

I hope this helps, mainly built because I like tanks, but I don't really play in the competitive circles. I had the spearhead rules in mind when I built the list.

I just had a thought. Since I really suck at using full tacticals in Rhinos effectively, would it be a better use of points to only buy Combat squads and pay for a combi-weapon on the sergeant? Five marines and a combi-weapon is a lot cheaper then a full squad and much more efficient (i think). Anyone have any experience with this? I'll pose the question on the tactics forum too...

If i was making a 'fluffy' Fist army, id go with
Lysander
3 Units of Termies
3 Units of Assault marines ( one unit Vangaurd)
2 Units of Tac Marines with tank punchers in Razor backs with additional tank punch
2 Dreads with more tank punch

I know this is an unbalanced looking army list, but the Termies Deep strike and the Assault Marines should let you open flanks for your tank punchers and vice versa. With mobility and firepower you really cant go wrong.

The Imperial Fists are Rogal Dorns boys, and they are the siege troops and ground pounders. Dorn and Lysander both love to get down and dirty face to face with the opposition.
Im not at all sure this would be an effective army but it would be ' Fist Fluff"

In my particular list, I would split the tactical squads into combat squads leaving the Missile launcher and four marines in cover somewhere raining in missiles where needed. The Sgt and flamer, along with 3 marines would hop into the rhino and go towards any objectives (in an objective based mission).

Deuce11 wrote:Here's the List--

HQ: Vulkan

Elite: CC Terminators in LR Crusader w/ MM

Troop: 2x Tac with Flamer MM and Razorback with Las/Plas

Fast: 3x Typhoon Land Speeders

Heavy: 3x Vindicators

I suppose it is straightforward. I have never run anything like this before though so it will be new to me.

Here's my issue: Vulkan's chapter tactics replaces combat tactics! Uh oh, my favorite thing about marines it gone. Should I get rid of the razor backs? Full 10 man squads gaining free special/heavy that is twin linked is too good to pass up so should I run them in Rhinos?

How do you run tacticals in a Vulkan list?

So I am an idiot and Vulkan exchanges combat tactics with chapter tactics which still allows me to combat squad the tacticals. GW please use terms that resemble each other a bit less.

Deuce11 wrote:I just had a thought. Since I really suck at using full tacticals in Rhinos effectively, would it be a better use of points to only buy Combat squads and pay for a combi-weapon on the sergeant? Five marines and a combi-weapon is a lot cheaper then a full squad and much more efficient (i think). Anyone have any experience with this? I'll pose the question on the tactics forum too...

This may still be viable but kinda a moot point since i can still combat squad while using vulkan in the list.

Jay-Man McDougall wrote:If i was making a 'fluffy' Fist army, id go with
Lysander
3 Units of Termies
3 Units of Assault marines ( one unit Vangaurd)
2 Units of Tac Marines with tank punchers in Razor backs with additional tank punch
2 Dreads with more tank punch

I know this is an unbalanced looking army list, but the Termies Deep strike and the Assault Marines should let you open flanks for your tank punchers and vice versa. With mobility and firepower you really cant go wrong.

The Imperial Fists are Rogal Dorns boys, and they are the siege troops and ground pounders. Dorn and Lysander both love to get down and dirty face to face with the opposition.
Im not at all sure this would be an effective army but it would be ' Fist Fluff"

When I think "seige" I think breaking down the defenses and then bringing in the troops. So I have the three vindi's to crush the heavy fortification, the onslaught of typhoon missile to take out specific targets, then the CC termies and Tacticals in razors clean up.

im fresh out of the Soul drinkers novels, and my idea of siege is a little jaded by my late reading habits, in 40K a siege is more often than not a ship to ship action. If your thinking of a fortified position with static defenses like in a classical siege setting the IG are likely who will be called in to grind the walls down. Marines will usually only be called in for special siege situations like ship to ship siege actions.
The city fighting is IG fare, and not likely to involve Marines in most cases. Thats my take on 40K military thinking.
And like i said thats the 'fluffy Fist' army. I prefer steering away from termies myself. Its not that i dont like them. I just dont use them much.
But in any case i almost made my SM army a Fist army. I liked Lysander that much. In the end though i wanted Marnelus Calgar more and chose my own chapter " Imperial Hornets".
i love assault squads with Chaplains. Core of my chapter and army list.

Jay-Man McDougall wrote:im fresh out of the Soul drinkers novels, and my idea of siege is a little jaded by my late reading habits, in 40K a siege is more often than not a ship to ship action. If your thinking of a fortified position with static defenses like in a classical siege setting the IG are likely who will be called in to grind the walls down. Marines will usually only be called in for special siege situations like ship to ship siege actions.
The city fighting is IG fare, and not likely to involve Marines in most cases. Thats my take on 40K military thinking.

Not neccessarily true. IG are the "We've got time and I don't want to waste my coolio dudes" siege guys and the Space Marines are the "HOLY ! This absolutely, 100%, needs to get taken over night or we're done for" kind of siege army. So for smaller games (read non-Apocalypse) SM are fine siege dudes fluff wise.

Freelancer48 wrote:

Jay-Man McDougall wrote:im fresh out of the Soul drinkers novels, and my idea of siege is a little jaded by my late reading habits, in 40K a siege is more often than not a ship to ship action. If your thinking of a fortified position with static defenses like in a classical siege setting the IG are likely who will be called in to grind the walls down. Marines will usually only be called in for special siege situations like ship to ship siege actions.
The city fighting is IG fare, and not likely to involve Marines in most cases. Thats my take on 40K military thinking.

Not neccessarily true. IG are the "We've got time and I don't want to waste my coolio dudes" siege guys and the Space Marines are the "HOLY ! This absolutely, 100%, needs to get taken over night or we're done for" kind of siege army. So for smaller games (read non-Apocalypse) SM are fine siege dudes fluff wise.

Like I said not likely. and Mostly the IG will be deployed. in either case its fighting with bolters blazing.

So anyway the list!

I like it, except for the razor back weapons. If your gonna spend 35 pts on a razor back weapon the TL assault cannon is the way to go imo. Some will disagree, but TL assault cannons do work against MEQ and help alot more v hordes than the TL plasma gun and lascannon. Besides, if your 3 typhoons, 3 vindis, hammer-time termies, and MM marines can't kill the tanks your facing your either doing it wrong or the dice gods have forsaken you. And belivie me about the dice gods... I know the pain

Oh and how many termies is that? Remeber they count as two models for transport capacity!

Freelancer48 wrote:So anyway the list!

I like it, except for the razor back weapons. If your gonna spend 35 pts on a razor back weapon the TL assault cannon is the way to go imo. Some will disagree, but TL assault cannons do work against MEQ and help alot more v hordes than the TL plasma gun and lascannon. Besides, if your 3 typhoons, 3 vindis, hammer-time termies, and MM marines can't kill the tanks your facing your either doing it wrong or the dice gods have forsaken you. And belivie me about the dice gods... I know the pain

Oh and how many termies is that? Remeber they count as two models for transport capacity!

One of two reasons i dont like termies. They are slugs, and are load hogs in my Rhinos. The other reason I dont like them is.........they kinda look clunky and dumb. Which is odd since thats what i like about dreadnaughts. I just dont like Termies. I know they are useful and valuable, but I dont like them.

Deuce11 wrote:I am in the mood to build a very visually impressive and clean looking SM army. I've seen some beautiful Imperial Fist armies on Dakka and thought that it might fit the bill.

Just to warn you - painting yellow nicely is a royal pain in the ass...

You've really got to thin it down and do multiple coats, or it ends up looking streaky and blotchy. Makes painting Imperial Fists a VERY time-consuming process.

Yeah i the razors can be changed. I understand the pros and cons of all the choices. I threw the las/plas on their because i have not yet taken the time to think through their role yet.