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My assault heavy Chaos army does wonders against everything I've faced except that damnable roadblock that is the IG. I don't know what it is, could be blob squads with commissars, tank heavy, hell just an Exectuioner or 2, Valkeries, I just stumble on my face.

Standard 1850, loadout of 3 zerker squads, 2 of plague marines, summon lesser demons, all with icon, all with rhinos, 2 oblits, termicide melta variant, 2 defilers. Either I'm shot out of my tanks turn 1 or I find myself overrun after taking massive casualties. Now this list isn't modifiable as I'm in a game store league atm but in the past I've seen my share of problems from guard and a few pointers on what might help sway my thinking process on the battlefield.

IG is awesome and even the best Chaos build kind of pales in comparison.

Wait for the new book.

^ well that was certainly helpful.

First off, what kind of IG do you face?

Oblits and Termies can come down and either pop tanks or burn/dakka some infantry to death.

Your best chance with a rhino rush is to deploy in cover if you get 2nd move, if you get first, rush up 12" into cover if possible, if not (and possibly if do get into cover) pop smoke launchers. You might survive.

Otherwise, anything you can do to limit the number of AT weapons shooting at your rhinos is good.

Plague marines? Just hide in cover, unless they're in Rhinos or defending objectives (in which case, still hide in cover)

Chaos can take so many meltas it's actually kinda lame. I reccomend Chosen with meltas. Or termicide units. You want to get close, because you can run him right over.

Just my 2 cents

yeh i play as IG, getting in there face ASAP is the best tactic.

@ above two

Now this list isn't modifiable as I'm in a game store league

I guess the OP really should've made this thread before the league. Otherwise I would have been saying the same thing(s).

Yeah,cut a zerker squad or two and put a squad in a land raider.You disimbark and assualt.Also,less zerkers and more plague marines.

Kurgash wrote:Now this list isn't modifiable as I'm in a game store league

The reading comprehension is stunning. Now for the few actual tips people gave, the IG players at the store tend to use basilisks and executioners backed by a valkerie or two. This makes my target priority come into question. The defilers are often used to lay down some ordnance of my own or take a passing shot at a chimera side. The oblits and melta-cide are my real range killers. It boils down to this, you have the tanks back by some HW teams or go for the isolated pockets. With guard often what is the target priority for killing first on the field if in a rare instance all of the able tanks are on it, which do you destroy first to cut the pain down in his bite while my army races forwards as fast as possible.

i play guard and would recommend screening

use your least important transport(s) to give hull down to your others

this way you lose on average 50% less transports

i personally hate it when someone puts a rhino side on to completely obscure one rhino and give hull down to 2 others grrrrrrr

but please do not use this tactic if your oponent has a manticore rocket launcher

if you are facing a manticore keep everything well spread out.

and also try and swamp his lines - hit as many different units as you can in CC at the same time

also head for his foot troops or chimeras as tanks are much less effective once you swamp his lines(unless he cares not for killing guardsmen)

Try using your oblits to Deepstrike and wreck his heavy support (Russ, Bassie). Long range (lascannons) don't have the reliability to smash AV14, but a TL meltagun against rear armor (11 for executioner) does. If you live past killing the russ, snipe the bassie (12/10/10), it has a rather long side armor, so lascannons cut through that.

A Chaos player did that to me a week or so ago and my heavy support crumpled. Don't do this if he as an Inquisitor, though.

none of the guard players run inquisitors thankfully but from observing games they keep their units pretty damn packet together to avoid rear deep strikes. With any luck the units land on target and can gib something at least until cavalry shows up.

Let us know how you get on.

As an IG player I say meltas and assult and the game is yours

With the current list: Deep Strike you guys and get into punching range ASAP.

With future lists: Take Chosen Marines w/ an Icon and mess their lines up with melta and accurate Deep Striking. Lesser Daemons are also a good screening unit.

Groslon wrote:With the current list: Deep Strike you guys and get into punching range ASAP.

With future lists: Take Chosen Marines w/ an Icon and mess their lines up with melta and accurate Deep Striking. Lesser Daemons are also a good screening unit.

Deep striking is a dangerous tactic with CSM but I guess that's the attraction, right? Either it goes off really well or really badly. I guess you just need to do anything to avoid the deadly fire lanes that will wreck the vehicles... Split enemy fire so they have to focus on 2 or even 3 flanks simultaneously.

Well it's not too deadly if he has icons everywhere.

p.s what's your HQ? That plays a roll in this.

templeorks wrote:As an IG player I say meltas and assult and the game is yours

+1

Best tactic is to get into CC ASAP, that way your squads can't be targeted by those nasty artillery and gunships.

I wrote some tactical articles on my blog how to fight IG with CSM. Check it out.

G

Zulander wrote:Well it's not too deadly if he has icons everywhere.

p.s what's your HQ? That plays a roll in this.

Running Kharn and a 'Khorne' lord with blissgiver/wings. Kharn does the infantry chopping while the Khorne lord kills characters. Worked out well vs mephiston and nids so he stayed.

Kurgash wrote:

Zulander wrote:Well it's not too deadly if he has icons everywhere.

p.s what's your HQ? That plays a roll in this.

Running Kharn and a 'Khorne' lord with blissgiver/wings. Kharn does the infantry chopping while the Khorne lord kills characters. Worked out well vs mephiston and nids so he stayed.

Against Guard, Kharn is overkill. Power weapon attacks in general are overkill against IG.

My favorite combo for blob IG (and pretty much everyone) is an initial charge by Plague Marines, with a gangpile from Berzerkers. You tie them up so even if they get counterattack from Strakken they're still going to have a hard time wounding. Then the Berzerkers finish off most of the blob.

You need lots of attacks in H2H that can get there ASAP. This means Berzerkers in Rhinos. Don't waste points on Land Raiders because, for the price, you can have 10 more Berzerkers in a Rhino.

Your HQs should probably be lash princes or sorcerors. All of the dedicated H2H choices for HQs are overkill so you want the support, even if the opponent is running the typical Inquisitor w/ Hood and Mystics.



OP has a fine list, assuming all of the Berzerkers and Plague Marines are mounted. Don't forget, those Defilers have fleet, so you might be better off just running them full speed ahead to take the brunt of the fire while your Rhinos roll through. Also, use 1 Rhino to block LOS to another, that way you won't get hosed too badly.


Fighting guard is always a pain in the rear, but you just have to get there ASAP and then start laying on the pain.

I would also second the lash combo. It really does force the guard to react and puts them a bit off their very firm footing... It does for anybody. Realizing a giant unit of infantry can be taken away from cover and from their comrades and be put out in the open is not a very pleasant thought.

Hq's and everything are here to stay as the list is unmodifiable. I'm just asking for a few pointers in terms of should I reserve my whole force then come in from a different part of the table edge if it's spearhead, go full ahead engines roaring, which tank is highest in target priority.

A: lash princes and sorcs are a crutch and real chaos players don't need them

B: guard is basically the immovable object to my unstoppable force, just looking for ways to get around it to keep the momentum so to speak.

I really like what NuggzTheNinja is saying here. Your defilers and rhinos take a boatload of fire early on I am sure. Personally I would rather have the defilers take more of the hits. Deploy them centrally or at least in a more appealing spot for an opponent to shoot at them, then the rhinos around the defilers.

Use defilers as cover, and fleet them to keep up with rhinos. This way it might seem like the defilers are just going to join in a massive assault rush but really they are there to soak up as much fire for your assaulters to get in there without leaving the safety of the rhinos for too long.

Aside from the I would also deploy the Oblits not deepstrike/reserve. Put them in good cover, force your opponent to waste more shots towards them. Biggest priority for you to win is to get across the board with as many intact plauge/berzerker squads as possible. Any tanks you bag, defilers or oblits that survive is just a bonus.

that's the kind of stuff i was looking for. Thanks, it might seem kind of a waste of 150pts but really rather get the zerkers in combat. I'll see how it works next time I face guard. *which will be see going by top table standings...*

I wouldn't call Lash a "crutch". It only seems overpowered against someone totally unprepared for it, which these days are few and far between. Nowadays most people are packing multiple hoods in their lists, greatly reducing lash's effectiveness. It's still quite good, but its not the insta-win it once was. It's just been overshadowed by other codices psychic ability.

odorofdeath wrote:I wouldn't call Lash a "crutch". It only seems overpowered against someone totally unprepared for it, which these days are few and far between. Nowadays most people are packing multiple hoods in their lists, greatly reducing lash's effectiveness. It's still quite good, but its not the insta-win it once was. It's just been overshadowed by other codices psychic ability.

Well when one asks alot of chaos players 'what HQ do you run?' and almost always you hear 'Lash blahblahblah' then really it's more of a crutch than a tool to achieve one's ends.

Kurgash wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:I wouldn't call Lash a "crutch". It only seems overpowered against someone totally unprepared for it, which these days are few and far between. Nowadays most people are packing multiple hoods in their lists, greatly reducing lash's effectiveness. It's still quite good, but its not the insta-win it once was. It's just been overshadowed by other codices psychic ability.

Well when one asks alot of chaos players 'what HQ do you run?' and almost always you hear 'Lash blahblahblah' then really it's more of a crutch than a tool to achieve one's ends.

It's one of the best units you can run as CSM. Calling Lash a crutch is like calling Melta Vets or Firedragons a crutch. It's a widely used tool that is popular for a reason.

Kurgash wrote:I'm just asking for a few pointers in terms of should I reserve my whole force then come in from a different part of the table edge if it's spearhead, go full ahead engines roaring, which tank is highest in target priority.

Your army doesn't necessarily want to rush forward and engage the guard lines--and you don't have to in order to win the mission. In fact, if you just rush blindly forward, you're doing exactly what the IG player wants, because his army is designed to shoot you up as you approach and tarpit you when you get there. So try this instead:

In an annihilation mission, if you're going second and there's decent terrain, this is the best time to reserve everything. Use what comes in from reserve to try to get a couple of KPs up on your opponent (oblits and defilers on vehicles are a good shot), then hide until the clock runs out. That's standard tactic for a mechanized army.

In a seize ground, try to cluster at least half the objectives together on one end of the board (not one side--one end) then secure those objectives and kill anything that comes near you. Put pressure on the other objectives with non-troop contesting units, which you can freely sacrifice to force the IG player to stay away, since only objectives count. Again, when going second, consider reserving everything since your assault guys have the ability to rush in and clear an objective in 1 or 2 turns, which later in the game will deny your opponent sufficient time to shoot your fearless, gone-to-ground (FNP) guys off the objective before the game ends.

In capture & control, secure your home objective with one unit of plague marines in rhino & cover and send everything else in your army full speed toward the enemy objective, trying to contest it. You can summon your daemons onto your home objective's icon if the plaguies need backup, or onto the enemy objective if you need to put more pressure there. This is the one mission where you might consider deepstriking oblits, using icons to position them for flamer/melta shots.

When you're holding an objective, put a troop-bearing rhino in cover such that the guys inside can get out behind the wreck--if it doesn't blow up--and be safe. In annihilation, that can be right along your own table edge. In objective missions it can be a spot where the disembarked troops are within 3" of the prize. You actually mostly don't want to get out of your transports in objective missions vs. IG unless you're forced to, and when you get out it's best to be in a spot where he can't shoot you and you're doing something important (preserving a KP, holding/contesting an objective).

Obviously if the IG player has indirect fire weapons, those are the ones to kill first so you can hide effectively. But most kids these days don't take indirect fire because Medusas are the shiznit and they don't know the rules.

In general, it's better to start the Oblits on the table--you need the lascannon firepower on his vehicles early. Termicide deepstrikes obviously.

Often vs. guard it's better to have your defilers run/fleet forward rather than having them shoot. Also if you run them in front of your rhinos, their heavier armor will increase the rhino survivability by soaking up some fire.

As already mentioned, get a second turn of smoke by using rhinos to give each other cover. Pop smoke on the ones in front, and hide the others behind, then reverse positions.

Whatever rhinos make it to the other side of the table should tank-shock any infantry they can reach, over and over again. Heavy weapon squads, with unmodifiable Ld7, are especially vulnerable to this. That's why you need 5-pt dozer blades on all rhinos, because that infantry will be in cover.

Credit to Fritz for the mission-specific tactics for mechanized armies.

Kurgash wrote:'Khorne' lord with blissgiver/wings

Make sure to tell your TO that you're running a unit that isn't legal or you're gonna have some pissed-off opponents.