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So I've got one deathstar type unit and some cheapy models, all fearless. If an opponent assaults in and when it's all said and done gets one guy in base combat with the deathstar duder as well as the cheapies and keeps everyone else on the cheapo dudes to completely obliterate them in a hopeless battle, does no retreat mean the deathstar guy suddenly gets hit with a wound for every guy in the other unit that died? I had 17 wimpy models get completely destroyed, as I expected, and from out of nowhere the other guy says 'you need to take 17 armor saves on your big guy there'. I just sorta gave him the stink eye for a bit, asked him if he was seriously trying to tell me that the unit that had lost every single model was somehow going to sneak in the back door of their glorious leader, side step all his stats and defenses and crap out a pile of automatic wounds on his living room furniture then run away. He got all defensive, called over someone else and the general consensus was 'gee, that sucks. how many points was he worth?' and then it was all over. Is this for real?

SumYungGui wrote:So I've got one deathstar type unit and some cheapy models, all fearless. If an opponent assaults in and when it's all said and done gets one guy in base combat with the deathstar duder as well as the cheapies and keeps everyone else on the cheapo dudes to completely obliterate them in a hopeless battle, does no retreat mean the deathstar guy suddenly gets hit with a wound for every guy in the other unit that died? I had 17 wimpy models get completely destroyed, as I expected, and from out of nowhere the other guy says 'you need to take 17 armor saves on your big guy there'. I just sorta gave him the stink eye for a bit, asked him if he was seriously trying to tell me that the unit that had lost every single model was somehow going to sneak in the back door of their glorious leader, side step all his stats and defenses and crap out a pile of automatic wounds on his living room furniture then run away. He got all defensive, called over someone else and the general consensus was 'gee, that sucks. how many points was he worth?' and then it was all over. Is this for real?

Yes, it is for real.

Now you know to keep them away from each other, or setup in such a way that they cannot be multi assaulted.

Well sorry to say but that's just seventeen shades of gay, no two ways about it. 'Tom, Dick and Harry just died over there in that unit, oh noes I am defeated!'

SumYungGui wrote:Well sorry to say but that's just seventeen shades of rubbish, no two ways about it. 'Tom, Dick and Harry just died over there in that unit, oh noes I am defeated!'

It's to balance out Fearless. If you don't like it... well... don't let your Deathstar Model be multi assaulted then.

If it's the rules, it's the rules and so be it but ain't no possible way I can ever be convinced it's "Fair And Balanced' [/FoxNews]. On one hand you pass morale (only, not leadership, enjoy!) and in the other hand you're completely obliterated.

Yes, but it Balances out the fact that a Fearless unit is a better tarpit than a non fearless one.

It's also to make sure players properly position their units rather than just clump them all together.

If they were further apart, they couldn't multi assault him. Or if you must clump up, completely surround his base so there is no room to reach him through the other units bases.

Yeah yeah, lesson learned and all. You can be damn sure I'm going to be as paranoid about this now as I am when it comes to spreading out to avoid template weapons, cause I've been screwed, hard, without lube by both situations and improperly placing my models. Now I've learned and will go forward with this knowledge in mind at all times.


It's still dumb and horribly imbalanced. 'Oh goodie I get to pass morale (only), then I get to die horribly to the vengeful souls of my fallen comrades as they turn on me for forsaking them whilst my opponents laugh as I die from a stroke because they never even took a swing at me the entire fight!'.

SumYungGui wrote:Yeah yeah, lesson learned and all. You can be damn sure I'm going to be as paranoid about this now as I am when it comes to spreading out to avoid template weapons, cause I've been screwed, hard, without lube by both situations and improperly placing my models. Now I've learned and will go forward with this knowledge in mind at all times.


It's still dumb and horribly imbalanced. 'Oh goodie I get to pass morale (only), then I get to die horribly to the vengeful souls of my fallen comrades as they turn on me for forsaking them whilst my opponents laugh as I die from a stroke because they never even took a swing at me the entire fight!'.

Could be worse...you could be in same situation fighting a high I unit (as i always seem to) and get SAd if you fail (oh and all those dudes that died yeah your deathstar unit takes them into account for purposes of your leadership check...good luck passing w leadership 2!!)...so at least you stood somewhat of a chance...vs just getting wiped out completely!

Sumyounggui: I just have to comment on you hatred for Fearless being Morale only. This Makes perfect sense, there is no reason why a Particularly Brave(foolishly even) Psyker Would automatically pass all Psychic tests(they are Leadership tests), Nor why a Guardsman(granted fearless through some unknown ability) would automatically hear/receive, understand, and obey his orders whenever they are issued. There are several other situations where Fearless auto-passing all leadership tests would horrendously overpower the fearless rules i just don't feel like going through them all.

Shake Zoola: His Deathstar is fearless so he never has to deal with SA, just No retreat.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Shake Zoola: His Deathstar is fearless so he never has to deal with SA, just No retreat.

Oh I know...i was stating it could be worse!

My nobz are suseptible to SA

Yep, multi-assaults count together for purposes of LD/Fearless saves Thats how I downed a swarmlord in CC today... got his gaunts into a multi with my DC and wiped the horms, taking massive amounts of wounds on the swarmlord... sucks, but thems the breaks!

Yeah, them're the breaks and the rules are the rules. Gotta live with them and play by them. Life sucks, wear a helmet.

Difference is you get a bunch of coolness points for not trying to browbeat me with 'It's for balance, it's fair you're just not smart enough to understand how it's fair cause you're not smart!'. I'll never buy that argument on either it's factual or implied basis and you have my thanks for not going down that route.

SumYungGui wrote:Yeah, them're the breaks and the rules are the rules. Gotta live with them and play by them. Life sucks, wear a helmet.

Difference is you get a bunch of coolness points for not trying to browbeat me with 'It's for balance, it's fair you're just not smart enough to understand how it's fair cause you're not smart!'. I'll never buy that argument on either it's factual or implied basis and you have my thanks for not going down that route.

Everyone makes mistakes, people only start flaming when you go "well thats not fair!" That would be like me whining my Mephiston isn't eternal warrior or have an invun lol...

This is why stubborn is much better than fearless in most close combat situations.

So I had a lot of mental free time to go over options on this during work and I want to be abso-friggin-lutely sure I've got my defense against this locked down airtight. I play Tyranids so keeping my death stars (Hive Tyrants is mostly what I'm thinking about here as that is what got bent over by this) away from my gribblies isn't too terribly practical. I intend to bubble wrap my big duders with a layer of -gaunts. When this is done, according to p. 34 of the basic rule book, under 'defenders react' it says "after all assault moves have been made, the player controlling the units that have been assaulted this turn must move any members of these units not yet in base contact with a foe toward the enemy"

One thing I did not do was completely encircle my Tyrant with -gaunts, I only screened them in the front. He assaulted in, had our guys move into each other, and then assaulted with another unit around the kitten pile just created to get one duder in base contact with the Hive Tyrant and the cluster fluffle at the same time for this multi-assault crap whereupon I was ambushed with the craptacular 'they died, you were never attacked, die to wounds' outcome of ultimate suckiness and suck. If I encircle my big nasty with -gaunts this cannot happen, correct? He has to assault all his guys into the bubble wrap and without space between -gaunts, that is necessary to maintain unit coherencey, there's no way to sneak between them. Once all of his moves are done my guys move their six inches in around the Tyrant to get it goin' on? Am I at all wrong in this?

Not gonna lie I'm out for revenge on this guy and if I'm reading things right I'm gonna let him try his crap, bust out the rules the same way he did and corn hole him in return with a big 'ol smile.

That's right. The attacker makes all of his assault moves, and then the defender makes pile in moves.

SumYungGui wrote:I had 17 wimpy models get completely destroyed, as I expected, and from out of nowhere the other guy says 'you need to take 17 armor saves on your big guy there'.

Bearing in mind that your 'big guy' would have had the opportunity to swing back at the enemy unit first...

No Retreat wounds are the number of wounds you lost the combat by, not the total number inflicted.

SumYungGui wrote: He has to assault all his guys into the bubble wrap and without space between -gaunts, that is necessary to maintain unit coherencey, there's no way to sneak between them. Once all of his moves are done my guys move their six inches in around the Tyrant to get it goin' on?

That's correct. Although it does mean that you're going to be just standing around waiting for him to assault you, which seems somewhat counterproductive.

Zid wrote:Yep, multi-assaults count together for purposes of LD/Fearless saves Thats how I downed a swarmlord in CC today... got his gaunts into a multi with my DC and wiped the horms, taking massive amounts of wounds on the swarmlord... sucks, but thems the breaks!

This is probably the biggest reason why the Tyranid codex is fail.

It's a good way to kill a Tervigon as well, just by combo charging it

It was pretty bad luck, but I also killed an entire swarm this way once, I had 5 thunder hammer terminators and a chaplain land raider charge a shrike unit, a gargoyle unit and a carnifex, they caused 18 instant death wounds to the 10 shrikes, killed 3 gargoyles all for a loss of 2 terminators. Having won by a massive amount the carnifex and the rest of the gargoyles and shrikes jus fell over dead and I didn't even allocate a hit to the fex at all, just based him.

Its a dumb rule in 5th, the units should only have to make saves for their comparative losses with fearless. IE the gargoyles could take 3 saves, the shrikes 16 and the fex none.

Why I sold my bugs, the swarm doesn't work.

Keep in mind that if there is more than 1" between the bases of your gaunt screen he can still slip between it to hit the Hive Tyrant behind. Using a 'double row' of gaunts tends to prevent this or staggering them appropriately.

And as others have said, if you completely wrap your Tyrant, neither unit is able to move in the the movement/shooting phase. Not at least if you wish to maintain this formation.

This is where "strategy" comes into play... its a rule to balance fearless, and it gives people who think about their options a tactical "out" to a bad situation

jbunny - you dont need to completely wrap the tyrant, normally there are limited sides that the enemy can reach.

Nos,

I don't disagree with you. I was just explaining that if he did wrap completely then neither is going to move and maintain that formation.

Fearless sucks in 5th Edition, at least in assault, because of the "No Retreat!" rules. Unfortunately, crappy armor armies like orks and daemons are stuck with it, as opposed to Stubborn or something that doesn't suck. Don't get me wrong; it's nice against shooting. But losing TWICE AS MANY MODELS IN ASSAULT is a stupid, stupid "balancing" effect.

Similar tale: Epidemius attached to a full Nurgling squad. 24 wounds are dealt to the Nurglings. That's 48 total NT! saves, 24 on the last base and 24 for Epi >.< If you keep your side to/in terrain when out of charge range you can deny several potential charge angles for your opponent.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Sumyounggui: I just have to comment on you hatred for Fearless being Morale only. This Makes perfect sense, there is no reason why a Particularly Brave(foolishly even) Psyker Would automatically pass all Psychic tests(they are Leadership tests), Nor why a Guardsman(granted fearless through some unknown ability) would automatically hear/receive, understand, and obey his orders whenever they are issued. There are several other situations where Fearless auto-passing all leadership tests would horrendously overpower the fearless rules i just don't feel like going through them all.

Shake Zoola: His Deathstar is fearless so he never has to deal with SA, just No retreat.

Sorry for side-tracking a bit.

Psychic tests are leadership tests, not morale tests. Leadership test is the parent category, while morale tests, pinning checks, psycher tests, etc are special cases. This also apply to IG orders, fearless doesn't make the unit pass the test since it's not a morale or pinning test. (Lame and useless analogy to follow) a krak missile and a frag missile may be fired from the same weapon, but that doesn't mean the krak missile scatter with a template just because the frag does.

Skarboy wrote:Fearless sucks in 5th Edition, at least in assault, because of the "No Retreat!" rules. Unfortunately, crappy armor armies like orks and daemons are stuck with it, as opposed to Stubborn or something that doesn't suck. Don't get me wrong; it's nice against shooting. But losing TWICE AS MANY MODELS IN ASSAULT is a stupid, stupid "balancing" effect.

5th edition is all about picking your fights. The emphasis of the current assault rules is that you have to pick your fights carefully, and you have to make sure that your small, elite units are either backed up by sufficient warm bodies, or stay out of assaults that they are going to lose.

In that light, No Retreat wounds are essentially just a sign that you're doing it wrong...

Mahtamori wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Sumyounggui: I just have to comment on you hatred for Fearless being Morale only. This Makes perfect sense, there is no reason why a Particularly Brave(foolishly even) Psyker Would automatically pass all Psychic tests(they are Leadership tests), Nor why a Guardsman(granted fearless through some unknown ability) would automatically hear/receive, understand, and obey his orders whenever they are issued. There are several other situations where Fearless auto-passing all leadership tests would horrendously overpower the fearless rules i just don't feel like going through them all.

Shake Zoola: His Deathstar is fearless so he never has to deal with SA, just No retreat.

Sorry for side-tracking a bit.

Psychic tests are leadership tests, not morale tests. Leadership test is the parent category, while morale tests, pinning checks, psycher tests, etc are special cases. This also apply to IG orders, fearless doesn't make the unit pass the test since it's not a morale or pinning test. (Lame and useless analogy to follow) a krak missile and a frag missile may be fired from the same weapon, but that doesn't mean the krak missile scatter with a template just because the frag does.

I think you should reread his post. He was saying why haveing Fearless = Auto pass all leadership test was a bad idea, and not how it actually works.

Skarboy wrote:
In that light, No Retreat wounds are essentially just a sign that you're doing it wrong...

Playing a horde army I've come to accept reality of no retreat wounds as the cost of business. When a batch of Termagaunt bubble wrap gets rushed you just have to live with it the same way you do diapers with a baby. Crappy, messy and smelly but it's life.

Prior to the incident that inspired this post I had never even imagined something as silly as all the vengeful spirits of my Termagaunts coming back from the grave with a grudge in their hearts and automatic wounds in their hands (claws?) to dispense on their former loving companion Hive Tyrant. One more time for the audience members in the back, I know the rules now, I accept them and will play the game appropriately with them so hopefully I won't be 'doing it wrong' from here on out. It still sucks and is pretty much the embodiment of Down Syndrome for rules and in my opinion has no reasonable defense.

SumYungGui wrote:Prior to the incident that inspired this post I had never even imagined something as silly as all the vengeful spirits of my Termagaunts coming back from the grave with a grudge in their hearts and automatic wounds in their hands (claws?) to dispense on their former loving companion Hive Tyrant.

So stop thinking of it like that, since it's not what's supposed to be happening.


No Retreat represents a model being overwhelmed by a combat that is not going his way. He's too stubborn to see that he should run away, and the momentum of the other side's attack causes them to just roll over the top of him. Using the number of wounds that the losing side lost by as the No Retreat score in that light represents the fact that the more casualties that side lost compared to the winning side, the more unbalanced the combat was.

It's nothing whatsoever to do with 'vengeful spirits'...



As another stray thought, your 'bubble wrap' tactic is really only necessary if you're keeping the Tyrant close enough to the gaunts that he can be multi-assaulted anyway. The current rules for charging (requiring assaulting models to maintain coherency and move onto un-engaged models where possible) mean that charging multiple units becomes fairly difficult in most situations unless the units are very close together.