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Hey guys,

I was thinking to myself earlier about how Space Marines likely operate with constant air support and, well, I haven't read many BL novels so I wondered if people could confirm this...

The way I envisage an SM attack is that they have the luxury to strike where they will and pound the crap out of anything that could compromise the operation (I'm going to assume they don't wham what they're going to engage as that might mitigate the surprise of an attack). They then operate with the ability to call in ordnance on ANYTHING they please and low-flying Thunderhawk Gunships can strafe at will. In short, the life of a Marine seems a helluva lot easier than a Guardsman's

As a matter of fact, considering the ordnance their battle barges could bring to bear... is it not surprising that the marines do any fighting at all?

I guess it all applies to the IG too if they are landed by the Navy and the latter is able to win over air superiority. I played the 40k mod for Operation Flashpoint and once made a big battle scenario with the IG, Imperial Navy fighters were able to win air superiority and absolutely strafed the crap out of the Orks

Well I read a 40k short story where the Ultras were fighting renegade guard and the marines called in a thunderhawk but it got shot down.
If there are too many AA guns then it wouldn't be feasible to call in air support.

Air support is better in fluff than in game.

Now, we look at a basic 40k + expansion for cityfights + expansion for superheavies .....maybe next step should be flyers in WH40k 6th ed?

Imperial navy fighter wings FTW
Imperial marauder squads FTW
Thunderhawks FTW

Plus we get more "flying" stuff each codex. First the valkyrie / vendetta / vulture as close ground support. Then the Stormraven...

Fool

Marines with battles by being invincible in the fluff.

Air support? Logic? Tactics? Strategy? Camouflage?

RIDICULOUS!

Marines wear primary colour armor and yell all the time. Everyone they face is helpless cardboard cut out. They knock a few over and go home.

I wonder which race you play?

Shaman wrote:Fool

Marines with battles by being invincible in the fluff.

Air support? Logic? Tactics? Strategy? Camouflage?

RIDICULOUS!

Marines wear primary colour armor and yell all the time. Everyone they face is helpless cardboard cut out. They knock a few over and go home.

Yes Space Marines might not need it but won't someone please remember the poor little squishy guardsmen...
In Gaunt's Ghosts in (Armour of Contempt I think) the non-skillage non-tanith fools have loads of air support when they assault... this was to retake a whole panet but still.
I play quite a lot of apoc with friends but we hardly ever use flyers, ive used my baracuda once or twice and even then it wasn't worth the points.

40k basically operates on WWI-era tactics. Everybody's got air support, but it usually doesn't manage to do much. The important stuff happens on the ground.

Ilkhan wrote:40k basically operates on WWI-era tactics. Everybody's got air support, but it usually doesn't manage to do much. The important stuff happens on the ground.

B-b-but surely if ships fire cannons the size of a city at a planet stuff's gonna die?

Henners91 wrote:

Ilkhan wrote:40k basically operates on WWI-era tactics. Everybody's got air support, but it usually doesn't manage to do much. The important stuff happens on the ground.

B-b-but surely if ships fire cannons the size of a city at a planet stuff's gonna die?

Oh, sure, if you want to bring logic to this argument. The only real logical defense against planetary bombardment as the #1 tactic for accomplishing anything in 40k is the desire for there to be enough left of whatever the enemy happens to be occupying to take it for yourself once the killing's ended. Otherwise you could just Exterminatus everything and call it a day.

Ilkhan wrote:

Henners91 wrote:

Ilkhan wrote:40k basically operates on WWI-era tactics. Everybody's got air support, but it usually doesn't manage to do much. The important stuff happens on the ground.

B-b-but surely if ships fire cannons the size of a city at a planet stuff's gonna die?

Oh, sure, if you want to bring logic to this argument. The only real logical defense against planetary bombardment as the #1 tactic for accomplishing anything in 40k is the desire for there to be enough left of whatever the enemy happens to be occupying to take it for yourself once the killing's ended. Otherwise you could just Exterminatus everything and call it a day.

Not really, Exterminatus is an everyone loses scenario, when the destruction of the enemy is of higher importance than the planet's survival, as the entire planet is made lifeless and uninhabitable. But limited orbital strikes could, in theroy reduce the ability of of the defenders to wage war, as could orbital bombing runs.

But that wouldn't be GRIMDARK enough.

I would say Imperial Guard (imperial Navy) actually have better air support than Marines.

I've always viewed the lack of air support and orbital bombardment in 40k games as symbolic of the idea that in regular 40k, you're one little company or so of troops facing off a similar sized group. The air and orbital support probably has bigger more important fish to fry, or avoid being fried by. That's my opinion at least....I actually think it's kind of supported as once you get to Apocalypse level battles you tend to have much more availability of air and orbital support, representing that this battle is now big enough that the Navy can actually give about it.

Remember....the Navy always thinks on a larger scale, and much more conservatively than a ground army. To make an army, you can just give a bunch of guys matching clothes, some weapons and some training and POOF ! You have an army! A really sucky army, but an army nonetheless. You can't do that with a Navy. To have even the most basic navy you not only need the warm bodies, but you also need to train them how not to die at sea, AND you need a ship. That means every resource the Navy puts in is much more valuable than an equivalent army resource.

Aye ChrisWWII you have a point, I too think of the battles as skirmishes on the periphery of a much larger battle going on along an extended front.

Though, that doesn't necessarily apply to Space Marines since you can field a sizeable part of a company in a normal game: And companies tend to have Thunderhawk support!

That's true...that's very true. I think with the space marines....it's a case where the rules don't live up to the fluff.....Hmmm, maybe GW could give the SM some kind of special rule/ unit (like the IG's Master of Ordnance) who can call in Thunderhawk strikes? That would work I think....

Thunderhawks are too valuable to be used against anything but the absolutely most important targets.

And those targets usually are too well-protected to use a Thunderhawk against.

Plus, Marines always operate with a Battle Barge or Strike Cruiser(at minimum) on overwatch. That's represented, pretty well I think, by Chapter Masters having "Orbital Bombardment".

Also, 1hadhq: Guard didn't get Vultures in the new Codex. The Vendetta came out of nowhere as a shoe-horned fit for what the role it normally would fill(close air support with heavy weaponry).

ChrisWWII wrote:That's true...that's very true. I think with the space marines....it's a case where the rules don't live up to the fluff.....Hmmm, maybe GW could give the SM some kind of special rule/ unit (like the IG's Master of Ordnance) who can call in Thunderhawk strikes? That would work I think....

How about deep striking Land Raiders? No wait, that's lame.

Kanluwen wrote:Thunderhawks are too valuable to be used against anything but the absolutely most important targets.


Also, 1hadhq: Guard didn't get Vultures in the new Codex.

Depends. Background supplies T-Hawks as standard method of orbital flight and common insertion/extraction .
In "soulhunter", the nightlords were low on ressources but still had a t-hawk ready as transport per squad.

And yes, i dislike RC's mistake of only 2 varients of the valkyrie hull in C: IG. The vulture should be there, maybe as HS.
Still there is a model and maybe a friendly opponent.....

Kanluwen wrote:Thunderhawks are too valuable to be used against anything but the absolutely most important targets.

And those targets usually are too well-protected to use a Thunderhawk against.

Plus, Marines always operate with a Battle Barge or Strike Cruiser(at minimum) on overwatch. That's represented, pretty well I think, by Chapter Masters having "Orbital Bombardment".

Ahhh, yes...I haven't read the SM codex, so I have no idea what their special rules are, so I was unaware of the orbital bombardment ability. Even then...I think you're exaggerating the value of the Thunderhawk a bit. The BFG rulebook describes Thunderhawks as being the Marine's fighter, bomber and assault ship. No doubt, they carry more of them than most Imperial vessels would carry in bombers. I agree that in the company level battle of regular 40k, there would be very few things worthy of a Thunderhawk strike, but there are a few things that might be worthy. A Basilisk battery, or a tank platoon strikes me as something that might be worthy of a Thunderhawk visit.

Kanluwen wrote:Thunderhawks are too valuable to be used against anything but the absolutely most important targets.

And those targets usually are too well-protected to use a Thunderhawk against.

Plus, Marines always operate with a Battle Barge or Strike Cruiser(at minimum) on overwatch. That's represented, pretty well I think, by Chapter Masters having "Orbital Bombardment".

Also, 1hadhq: Guard didn't get Vultures in the new Codex. The Vendetta came out of nowhere as a shoe-horned fit for what the role it normally would fill(close air support with heavy weaponry).

Surely realistic representation of a battle barge in orbit would allow Marines to direct accurate fire onto multiple enemy targets per turn?

And an Imperial Navy vessel in orbit would decimate the entire battlefield in one blast.

Apply an SD AP1 Ordnance 1 attack to every single model.