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Alright, I have a decent grasp of the game, and when I get first turn, I usually do pretty good. However, when I get second turn, I almost always lose. How do I fix that? What are some of the tricks to second turn deployment? How do I minimize my casualties and allow me to fight back when it comes to my turn? I play a liberal amount of opponents, pretty much everything except Tau. Thoughts? (I'm providing my list to give you an idea and point me in the right direction. Thanks!)

Wolf Lord
+TW Mount +Wolf Claw +SS (195)

GHx5
+Flamer +AssaultBack (150)
GHx5
+Flamer +AssaultBack (150)
GHx5
+Flamer +AssaultBack (150)
GHx5
+Flamer +LazorBack (150)

TWCx3
+TH +SSx2 +MB (245)

LFx6
+LasCannon +Missile Launcherx4 +LazorBack (230)
LFx6
+LasCannon +Missile Launcherx4 +LazorBack (230)


Total: 1500

Shooty space wolves. Keep the GH's loaded up in the 'Backs and creep toward objectives 6" at a time to be able to keep firing. Attach the Wolf Lord to the TWC unit and creep up behind the 'Backs until in range to charge, or sneak them around terrain to avoid soaking up fire. I know they are alone and could absorb a lot of fire, but I think they should be able to take it. Other than that, pretty simple shooter.

One trick that might help you is to use terrain to give your vehicles obscurement if you are not going first.
Look at the example below. In this, one razorback is placed behind terrain so it gets obscurement from the enemy. Each following razorback is placed so 40% of its hull is seen by the enemy, granting obscurement for each tank. This formation literally doubles the durability of your tanks, as 50% of the shots will now miss.



This tactic does not work vs. all opponents. Assuming that these fast tanks (ie, Eldar) started in the same location as the slow tanks, they can move to get clear shots, as shown below. So this is not a one-size fits all approach, but might help your strategy of shoot until you need to scoot.

First of all I really don't like your list so that is one reason I think you are getting smashed in turn 2. Units of 5 GH do not really work well if there are no large units to support them. Personnaly I don not think there is a place for TWC in any list of under 200 points yes they are amazing but you have to carefully tailor your list to suit them.

I really think the main reason you are not doing well is that SW are not vanilla SM and GH should be in units of 10 perhaps 9 if accompanied by a WG. If you are set on using the list you have then just keep playing it and you will improve if not I can suggest an alternative list.

@labmouse42: Thank you very much for that! I never even considered something like that. That will definitely come in handy against most of my opponents. My friends don't take eldar/DE hardly, but I have played them before. However, one of my friends is a Blood Angels player, so same problem. But, that will help me regardless.

@Ed_Bodger: While I respect your opinion of my list, can I get any input? Even basic deployment techniques would be a boon to my learning process. If you want to critique my list personally, it is in the army lists section. Like I said, I need basic deployment techniques as well.

Some thoughts, would holding things in reserve be be of use? Which units? Say I have no cover to deploy my long fangs in, what should I do with them?

Thanks again guys!

longfangs can hide behind their Razorbacks.

i would reccomend holding everything in reserves if you go second.

TWC can quickly engage the enemy due to rapid movement(They count as Cavelry/Beasts right?) move 6" assault 12".


Your Razorback spam is a moderatly effective build. your opponent will have a hard time to kill them all. Move in from reserves 12" towards enemy, Pop smoke/hide in cover.

Gang up when you do assault the enemy. Overkill is useful.

Ii second the entire army in reserve move. Bring your Razors on to target what you need to. I also think you need a larger squad somewhere. And your TWC are shock troops, move 12, fleet, and assault 6.

Your mech army should work fine, and I think you're right in sensing that the problem you're having is with deployment rather than list-building.

(Having said that, not having any melta must be a major problem for you. Assault cannons are crap against heavy armor.)

So, just to tweak what others have said with a few more details.

If going second *in annihilation mission* on a board where there is good terrain, start everything in reserve. Then use terrain to hide most of your army while picking off a couple of vehicles with long fangs, staying 1 or 2 KP ahead until you win the game. If going first in annihilation, deploy and take the first shot.

If your opponent depends on a lot of drop pods, spore pods, outflankers, infiltrators, scout-movers, deepstrikers and/or or hive commanders, try to get second turn and start everything in reserve. That way his stuff is on the board when you get there, denying him his mobility. And since everything except fangs moves & shoots, that means you get the first shot.

Flavius Infernus wrote:(Having said that, not having any melta must be a major problem for you. Assault cannons are crap against heavy armor.

Respectfully, I disagree with you here. Due to the rending nature of assault cannons they are actually MORE efficient than las-cannons vs AV 13 and 14 armor. While they do not roll 2d6 or get the +1 result, they are not crap. Crap would be autocannons or missile launchers.

Yah, I've seen your numbers, labmouse, which is why I was always puzzled why assault cannons are such crap in actual gameplay.

Equally respectfully, it turns out that the results that assault cannons get against AR13-14 are skewed by by the overkill (both pen rolls of 15 and multiple kills on the same vehicle), which is not taken into account on on a simple average calculation like the graph here. Because needing to roll a "6" on pen is a kind of limiting/gateway factor, and because the rending rolls get such high pen and occasionally multiple pens, they pull the simple average numbers artificially higher than they would be if those factors were worked in.

In either case, though, neither assault cannons nor lascannons are anywhere near as effective as half-range melta weapons.

Flavius Infernus wrote:In either case, though, neither assault cannons nor lascannons are anywhere near as effective as half-range melta weapons.

Agreed.

That may be true comparing a assault cannon with a Lascannon, BUT look at what the actual percentage of scoring a damage roll is.

the TL-Assault cannon is at 35%.

TL-Lascannon is at 29%.

that barely is the difference between a dice roll(16.6%)

Lascannons will, however, get 2 or 3 rounds of fire off before the assault cannon is even in range.






That said Melta makes both look foolish, but it has a short range. they balance each other out quite well.

He has THs, and 4 assault cannons. that will suit him well unless he hits LR spam(Which is a Win big or lose big list anyway)

Grey Templar wrote:That may be true comparing a assault cannon with a Lascannon, BUT look at what the actual percentage of scoring a damage roll is.

the TL-Assault cannon is at 35%.

TL-Lascannon is at 29%.

Actually, as I understand it from the math gurus on dakka, that comparison is still skewed by overkill.

In order to get the real value, you'd have to compare the chances of the weapon *not* doing anything with one turn of shooting.. That's easy with the lascannon, but beyond my math skills for the assault cannon (or I'd have to spend a lot of time reviewing that formula with all the "P"s from my days at the test prep company to remember how to do that). But as I understand it, that's where the assault cannon's true chance of just bouncing harmlessly off AR 12-14 that we constantly observe in tabletop play actually comes through.

I do tend to have trouble with AV13-14, but I just feel that melta is sorta outta the question for this list. Aside from the TWC, the point is to stay at max range, more or less.

There also seems to be a split on the assault cannons. Are there any possible changes? What if I dropped the Assault cannons for just the standard TLHB on the 'backs and use the points to give melta's to 3 of the squads and maybe some wolf guards w/ combimeltas and powerfists?

The consensus seems to be hold in reserve. I will give that a shot. Thanks for clearing that up.

I would keep a few assault cannons. They are more effective then HBs turn3 onwards as the enemy will be within the range of the Assault cannon.


I am not familiar with GH options or the Pt costs, but you could swap 2 of the flamers for Melta guns. prehaps drop the Lascannons on the LF squads to pay for them.

Having said that, not having any melta must be a major problem for you. Assault cannons are crap against heavy armor.

Well, only compared to Meltaguns (and, I guess Railguns). Otherwise, they're great.

That said, one major weakness I see in the list is the lack of Wolf Guards. A Wolf Guard with Combi-Melta and Power Fist is an incredible deal. Every squad should have one. So give your 5 man GHs a Melta and a Wolf Guard. They still fit nicely in a Razorback.

In order to get the points, I'd drop some of your Lascannon Razorbacks, and cheapen up your Long Fangs(by giving them half MLs and half HBs).

Razorbacks are a great deal, but their weapon upgrades aren't. They're still tempting, but 35 points, but it puts a lot of points into an AV11 vehicle.

If you make those changes you'll have to get close to kill tanks, but you'll kill them more predictably. Lascannons kill things at random, Meltaguns WILL kill tanks if you get them in range.

Do not give Long Fangs HB's it is a waste of points if not lascannons gve them missile launchers.