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is lysander greater than the forgefather of the salamanders or has the 1st company captain had his day!

Personally i would go for lysander as he is mega annoying for the enemy toughing it out as an eternal warrior with a 2 up armour and 3 up invul.

please comment and give ur thoughts.

uhhh... in single combat, yes, lysander is better.

in terms of army-wide bonuses, vulkan is SOOOOOOOOOOO much better.

i have noticed in my games though that lysander can run around all game and mop up elites or cause them to fall back!

Your question depends entirely on your army setup and thus cannot be properly answered. Post up a list you use and we can go from there.

1000 points
hq
lysander-200

troops
tactical squad-200(plasma gun, plasma cannon)
combat squad-115(powerfist)

elites
terminator close combat squad(200)

heavy support
land raider(250)

dedicated transport
rhino(35)

lysander and the terms wud go in the raider

Based on that list I'd say that Lysander is best. Vulkstan(spelling) has a combat tactic that counts all flamer and melta weapons as twin linked, If I had noticed a lot of flame based weaponry then I'd have likely said Vulkstan.

Let us know how you get on, there's a forum to post up battle reports that would be ideal if you document your battle.

Lysander has the Bolter Drill special rule, but without access to my codex I can't say if he can or cannot use that rule with Storm Bolter weapons, its worth a look though, under the entry in the codex for Lysander

just to put ur mind to rest it is any bolt weapon INCLUDING storm bolters that count as twin linked

In that case the choice just got better as Storm Bolters are excellent weapons, even more so with the added twin linked rule

HellsGuardian316 wrote:In that case the choice just got better as Storm Bolters are excellent weapons, even more so with the added twin linked rule

Not really, he's putting him in a Terminator Assault Squad.

I'd put him with the Tactical or Combat Squad to be honest, then his Bolter Drill might actually help you.

Nightwatch wrote:

HellsGuardian316 wrote:In that case the choice just got better as Storm Bolters are excellent weapons, even more so with the added twin linked rule

Not really, he's putting him in a Terminator Assault Squad.

I'd put him with the Tactical or Combat Squad to be honest, then his Bolter Drill might actually help you.

Good spot, hadn't noticed the assualt part. In which case I agree with the above

You could also put him in a squad or reg. termies. While they won't get the 3++, they'll have storm bolters. Besides, the differences between power fists and thunder hammers are very minimal. It all depends on the needs of your army. At 1000 points, you could definitely use the assault, but what about 1500 points?

Lysander is 200 points of close combat awesome. Why would you waste him on a few bolter re-rolls? 6 Storm bolters will average 8 hits and 4 misses in one round of shooting. Bolter Drill gets you 2.6 extra hits per turn at S4 AP 5. This is a fairly insignificant bonus if you were already planning to stick him in a regular terminator squad, but it's nothing compared to his re-roll to hit, S10 close combat attacks. You'd have to be mad to stick him in a tactical squad. You're opponent would be practically begging you to rapid fire those bolters since you would then be unable to assault.

What do you mean waste? All its doing is taking advantage of an existing ability, if your putting him with Terminators then you GOING to get him into CC surely, so why not use bolter re-rolls if you can.

Can I vote for a 100 point chaplin instead?

I take Lysander in any of my lists at 1500 or higher. (until Apoc where i have a better option)

HellsGuardian316 wrote:What do you mean waste? All its doing is taking advantage of an existing ability, if your putting him with Terminators then you GOING to get him into CC surely, so why not use bolter re-rolls if you can.

I said exactly that in my post. I'm just saying that the benefit of bolter drill is so marginal compared to the other benefits that it really doesn't warrant consideration when deciding what unit to stick him in. Bolter Drill does very very little to change the terminator vs assault terminator equation. I don't really see how the ranged weapons of a terminator squad beat out a 3++ save or when you consider that you need to throw the squad into close combat as much as possible to make Lysander's 200 points work for you, but even if you think the regular terminators are worth a shot, surely you're not swayed by a measly 2.6 extra storm bolter hits?

Temujin wrote:

HellsGuardian316 wrote:What do you mean waste? All its doing is taking advantage of an existing ability, if your putting him with Terminators then you GOING to get him into CC surely, so why not use bolter re-rolls if you can.

I said exactly that in my post. I'm just saying that the benefit of bolter drill is so marginal compared to the other benefits that it really doesn't warrant consideration when deciding what unit to stick him in. Bolter Drill does very very little to change the terminator vs assault terminator equation. I don't really see how the ranged weapons of a terminator squad beat out a 3++ save or when you consider that you need to throw the squad into close combat as much as possible to make Lysander's 200 points work for you, but even if you think the regular terminators are worth a shot, surely you're not swayed by a measly 2.6 extra storm bolter hits?

Ah, I'm following you now.

Lysander with Sternguard..... evil.....

Well, Vulkan is rather awesome in CC as well. Seems a lot of people forget that. He's got a master-crafted relic blade, so hits at S6, I5, with a reroll both to hit and to wound. Also has a 3++ save, gives a better overall army boost and actually has guns... all for 10 points cheaper.

Considering both wound most models on a 2+ (anything T4 and below), I would take I5 over I1 any day.

Lysander is better at taking on MC's, Vulkan is a beast against anything else. So... what do you need your commander to do?

Vulkan does not re roll to wound. Also, master carafted CC means you can re roll 1 miss, not all. Lysander can also take a PF to the face and live, Vulkan can not. Not to mention having 4 wounds. So while Vulkan is generally a superior HQ for the army there is no doubt that Lysander is a better CC character than Vulkan.

tedurur wrote:Vulkan does not re roll to wound. Also, master carafted CC means you can re roll 1 miss, not all. Lysander can also take a PF to the face and live, Vulkan can not. Not to mention having 4 wounds. So while Vulkan is generally a superior HQ for the army there is no doubt that Lysander is a better CC character than Vulkan.

Bolded part, he has digital weapon remember.

So the extra 1 dice to hit could turn 2 hits into 3, and the extra reroll to wound could turn 2 wounds into 3. it adds up nice having a 1 dice reroll for both.

I ran Lysander with 10 Termies (with 2 cyclones) in an RTT.
Its a great combo with bolter drill, able to roll up one flank.

i did that except with assault cannons. another great thing is that you can put all single invuls from lascannons among other things on lysander who will just shrug them off. However how can i prevent my normal termies being massacred every game by plasma cannons as i cant put all the wounds on lysander due to the allocating wounds rule