Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, 8th is about, and the new box has Skaven and High Elves. I might take this opportunity to get into Fantasy, but I'm curious from those more familiar with the game -- how do Skaven and High Elves play in 8th?

According to theorycrafting and what not, both skaven and high elves are looking to become more powerful...

Skaven are rumored to be absolutely nuts based on these changes.

ive played 4 games of 8th ed now with both dark elves and demons all against high elves, and i can honestly say that i think the high elves are freakin awesome. ASF is silly good and the sea guard in blocks are distressingly good...lots of shots, lots of attacks more often than not with re-rolls. swordmasters are still as beefy as they ever were and bolt throwers are harder to kill with shooting than before.

admittedly thats only after 4 games, but im impressed.

There's bonuses for ASF anf higher initiative, that nearly all high elf units get. Swordmasters are beasts!

To those of you that've played with/against HE's with the new rules: Did you guys play that the Swordmasters get the re-rolls but fight at initiative, just fight at initiative, or retain ASF?

Jin wrote:To those of you that've played with/against HE's with the new rules: Did you guys play that the Swordmasters get the re-rolls but fight at initiative, just fight at initiative, or retain ASF?

I havent played against them, but if you look at it, they dont get rerolls cause the great weapons cancel the ASF.

I would say they fight in initiative order.

I know. But it was a point of debate and given peoples' assessment of Swordmasters, I was curious given that I feel the current batch of rules has diminished their efficacy slightly.

I havent played against them, but if you look at it, they dont get rerolls cause the great weapons cancel the ASF.

Actually the high elves speed of asuryan rule states that they get ASF regardless of the weapon they are wielding.

lordofcross wrote:

I havent played against them, but if you look at it, they dont get rerolls cause the great weapons cancel the ASF.

Actually the high elves speed of asuryan rule states that they get ASF regardless of the weapon they are wielding.

And the rules for always strike last state that the model will always strike last.

Im assuming it is going to be in the errata.

And the rules for always strike last state that the model will always strike last.
Im assuming it is going to be in the errata.

I didn't see anything in the errata but the way the speed of asuryan rule is written seems to suggest that the elves get ASF even if wielding a great weapon

There's room for debate, honestly. Either way, the army book errata will hopefully resolve this issue. Still, the murkiness of this issue is what prompted my question.

Jin, what do you see as competitive Elves now? I am really curious about starting fantasy, but I am waiting to see what the new box set mini's look like. Do you think an army consisting of a couple blocks of Sea guards and some swordmasters would fair pretty well? I would add in some cavalry, but I am hoping the Silverhelms are redone as well as Dragon Princes.

The effectiveness of swordmasters is going to depend ENTIRELY on the errata and whether or not they keep ASF, if they do then they are ok, if the dont they wont be worth taking.

Sea Guard are rumorcrafted to be incredibly powerful now.

The main reason I ask is that rumor has it the new box set will have 10 new plastic swordmasters and 15 sea guard models, so my thought would be to get a boxset and trade the skaven, or buy two boxsets to give me a good base for both armies (as I am interested in skaven as well).

The other question I would have would be unit sizes?

How big a unit of sea guard and swordmasters would you have??

I would also throw in a couple of repeating bolt throwers!

My sentiments on Swordmasters resemble those of ShivanAngel's - depending on the ruling of how they work out, they'll either be fantastic or "meh". Still large potential for damage in the worst case, but not nearly enough to account for the declined survivability. Assuming 'worst case' (which is what I expect), I would consider them the worst of the 3 Elite Infantry choices. Assuming the worst, you'll need to take them in relatively large blocks, I think, to contend with the number of attacks that you'll be seeing back from your opponents. Units of 12-14 will probably be ideal, but you'll be limited to attacking enemy units from the flanks.

Overall, the Elves got a HUGE boost with the ASF re-rolls rule. For the most part, that means they got about 50% better in Close combat.

I see LSG being quite useful now since they're not forced to spend a turn reform between shooting and taking a charge/charging. A block of 18-30 of them will be fairly formidable. In any event, I see them replacing most peoples' units of archers.

RBTs are actually _slightly_ weaker now, as they only have as many wounds as they have crew (ie 2 now instead of 3), but all hits now must go against the RBT's T7. Granted, 6's always wound as well now.

I've been spending a lot of time with the high elf book dissecting it with 8th edition in mind. I've been matching them against demons and dark elves and skaven for theoryhammer math matchups. No actual table time yet... but here is just one set of numbers that made me smile.

20x lothern sea guard with shields, musician and standard versus 20x bloodletters with full command and icon of endless charge range.

Sea guard are cheaper. And in a complete vacuum, they win.... can you imagine our crappy core actually beating a certain power armies core straight up?

Turn 1, long range bowfire in 5x4 formation. 15 shots, 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 2.5 dead bloodletters

turn 2, bowfire in 5x4 formation. 15 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 3.34 dead bloodletters

turn 3 stand and shoot. 15 shots, 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 2.5 dead bloodletters

turn 3 combat. LSG go first with 20 attacks, re-rolling misses for 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, 5 dead bloodletters
7 bloodletters attack back, 4.7 hit, 3.92 dead LSG.
Bloodletters take a -1 instability, psossibly losing another wound.

turn 4 combat. LSG go first with re-rolls, 16 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 4 dead bloodletters
3 bloodletters attack back, 2 hits, 1.68 dead LSG.
bloodletters take a -2 instability. Probably popping.

14 LSG remain!!!

I am aware that virtually all of the demons other support units like flamers and jugger heralds along with a bloodthirster are just a complete terror on the field, and that this by no means 'proves' that high elves can beat demons. But hell, I'll happily take this small victory.

Let me add something to your math!!!

Mr bloodthirster is creeping up your flank when you are plinking away at that unit!

As far as elite (15 point, per model specials) infantry goes... you rally have to run some numbers...

They get absolutely trashed by anything with a higher model count. However, having at least one rank and a high initiative means that they explode a lot of stuff with no effort at all.

Chariots better get a 6 on their impact hits, because those swordmasters are going to erase it before the riders and mounts get to attack.

heavy cavalry? No chance. Large unit of ranked heavy cavalry will wreck them for sure, but I'm not sure how often we will see bug units like that who can get completely shut down by 40 goblins or 40 slaves so easily.

It seems like the pecking order for winning combats goes...

#1 Big Blocks... they require concerted effort and combinations of units or another Big Block to counter.

#2 Ranked elites... special infantry and ranked cavalry can remove rank bonuses, and can maintain a high level of attacks. They mostly won't get through the big blocks without attacking in multiples, or in support of another big block.

#3 Chariots, unranked cavalry, unranked monsters. Will probably get smashed up after doing some damage to ranked elites but won't be able to break them on the charge, which will doom them. However, these guys could really help speed up the grind on a Big Block in support of another Big Block or ranked elite unit. Also these guys can go kill support units like missile units, skirmishers and war machines...

After seeing these numbers.... if you can afford to Big Block up a unit you end up making a battlefield monster, unfortunately, high elves won't have a lot of these. So shooting to shrink blocks and multiple smart charges will be what is needed to blast through a table choked with goblins and skaven.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShivanAngel wrote:Let me add something to your math!!!

Mr bloodthirster is creeping up your flank when you are plinking away at that unit!

bah! I already mentioned that it was in a vacuum with support elements discounted.

Isn't your bloodthirster trying to intercept my star dragon? or protecting your flamers from the dragon prince unit that is completely immune to their attacks?

don't try to spoil any high elf celebration on having a half decent core choice.

We were stuck with 11 point unarmored archers and spear elves before the volley fire/initiative/ASF rules changes. let us enjoy the moment!

Shep - I don't think you can volley fire as a Stand and Shoot reaction (could be wrong).

I bet you are right Jin... that just doesn't make sense to shoot bows straight up in the air at someone bearing down on you... haha.

That might keep one or two letters alive, but the outcome is still the same. Beaten up but intact LSG unit, and no more bloodletters...

lordofcross wrote:

I havent played against them, but if you look at it, they dont get rerolls cause the great weapons cancel the ASF.

Actually the high elves speed of asuryan rule states that they get ASF regardless of the weapon they are wielding.

I've been playing GW games for 22 years and it has been common practice that the rules in the codex outrules the core rulebook.

Personally I'd say the SOA sticks with Swordmasters.

Considering how much arguing the rules for SoA caused when it first came out, expect similar controversy with the new rules. That one little add-on statement to the end of Speed of Asuryan has been a pain in the ass since the book came out. It's really not worth arguing about it until the Erratas come out in another 2 weeks.

oh, i think that even if they dont get re-rolls they will still see plenty of play. running them wide and somewhat big (15-20) will still net them a TON of attacks, and nobody wants to get hit by that many high str hits.

I'll comment a bit on Skaven since everyone else has been talking about High Elves.

1. As long as you don't allow your skaven blocks to be flanked, your almost looking at a stubborn LD 10 if your within range of your general. Basic troops are cheap enough (and Int 4) to take BIG blocks that, with a BSB combined, are pretty hard to dislodge.

2. More magic dice possible allow for some pretty nasty castings on both lores for Skaven. Actually it makes it possible for Plague Priests and Lvl 1 Engineers to get some of the big spells off.

3. Most of the changes in rules don't hurt Skaven really, as they had most of the 8th edition rules already figured in when they wrote it (i.e. no partials, combined war machines, etc.). Losing a point of outnumbering isn't great for combats, but see point 1 about Ld10.

4. Rare and special selections are really, really good for Skaven now. In a 2250 game I can take 2 doomwheels and 2 warplightning cannons, bringing ALOT of D6 wound causing shots to a game. Along with that, all of the template weapons/mortar teams benefited from the placing templates instead of guessing, so they inheritently got better.

5. Stormvermin got a little worse in my opinion because having halberds forces them to use it vice HW/S combo, but taking them still gives them a 4+ against shooting and magic.

6. The storm banner and the Winds spell from the Lore of Ruin still are the answer to everyone who thinks the game will be decided by volley fire. Adding that extra -2 to hit really messes with people, as well as prevents flyers from flying.

7. There are simply alot of choices and options for putting together a Skaven army, so it's hard to expect. 2 pt Slaves in huge blocks could be a real pain (rerollable stubborn 10s again), as well as many others.

Overrall - I think they got alot more staying power, have the cheap infantry (which aren't bad in combat btw) to make big stubborn blocks, and still have access to wacky, random, albiet potentially harmful to themselves but potentially very powerful special units. I think they will be very competitive and strong in 8th.

Getting to roll a stubborn 10....

Unless you rule for stubborn have changed, or a new rule was added you have to use the units unmodified leadership in stubborn tests, which means clannies test on 5 and slaves test on a 2...

If this changed then holy crap, big blocks of slaves just became 70 point anvil units.

Taking a grey seer with the 13th is going to be devastating now, especially if they have a block of really expensive infantry. throw 6 dice at it, who care if you it if the unit you are targeting is say 350 points and your grey seer is only 240. He might not even die!

If this changed then holy crap, big blocks of slaves just became 70 point anvil units.

You can use general's leadership for stubborn now, but it's unmodified leadership values, so no strength in numbers for Skaven stubborn tests.

Of course, we'll all know once the Skaven PDF is out after the rulebook is officially released.

wow general for stubborn tests now... combine that with a bsb.... changing pants....

time to start running 6x6 blocks of slaves for 72 tarpits.


Now imagine if it the errata lets us use SiN!

Mattbranb wrote:1. As long as you don't allow your skaven blocks to be flanked, your almost looking at a stubborn LD 10 if your within range of your general. Basic troops are cheap enough (and Int 4) to take BIG blocks that, with a BSB combined, are pretty hard to dislodge.

Leadership 7 within general's range: Skaven FAQ states that Stubborn is on profile leadership and does not benefit through the Rank Bonus to Leadership.

Mattbranb wrote:3. Most of the changes in rules don't hurt Skaven really, as they had most of the 8th edition rules already figured in when they wrote it (i.e. no partials, combined war machines, etc.). Losing a point of outnumbering isn't great for combats, but see point 1 about Ld10.

Leadership 7. Skaven benefit the least from that rule, which is a damn shame as if anything it'd make sense for them to benefit the most.

Mattbranb wrote:5. Stormvermin got a little worse in my opinion because having halberds forces them to use it vice HW/S combo, but taking them still gives them a 4+ against shooting and magic.

Yep, not too many people are happy about this. I can only imagine that GW's solution is to render this redundant and spread around some 75% of the armies "Veteran: This unit may choose between weapon choices before..." so as to make Dwarves, Chaos Warriors, and so on not be at the same footing as a Clanrat.

Mattbranb wrote:6. The storm banner and the Winds spell from the Lore of Ruin still are the answer to everyone who thinks the game will be decided by volley fire. Adding that extra -2 to hit really messes with people, as well as prevents flyers from flying.

Too bad Storm Banner was FAQ'd to once a game: Still nasty, but only likely to blot one shooting phase now.

The storm banner had to be erratad to once per game.

The damn thing is already complained about so much. "stupid cheesy banner that only cost 50 points, cry, cry, cry.."

ShivanAngel wrote:

Taking a grey seer with the 13th is going to be devastating now, especially if they have a block of really expensive infantry. throw 6 dice at it, who care if you it if the unit you are targeting is say 350 points and your grey seer is only 240. He might not even die!

Apart from if you get a double 6, he miscasts, and the miscast table now has penalties for the unit as well as the caster.