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So here is another ramming squadrons question. I rammed a squad of two piranhas with a deffrolla, and my opponent rolled two dice, to dodge (one for each skimmer), he then failed one. Then he allocated the deffrolla hits to the squad which was then destroyed. This seemed wrong to me.
What do you guys think?

It also seems wrong that one powerfist can take out 3 land speeders but there both right.

Well, the question is, why when the first skimmer dodged didn't the BW stop in his tracks as per the rules? Cos you know he had to contact one of them skimmers first.

Correct, unless you made contact with both at the same time in which case the scenario is correct.

oooooooh, owned. lol, sorry, but they've got the right of you on that one. I have to use the rule fairly regularly myself from time to time since I'm a SM player more often than not.

Well, my real question is if i ram a squad of skimmers should my opponent roll just one dice for the dodge or one dice for each skimmer?
And then should the damage be allocated to the squad or the single vehicle.

1 dice for the 1 'contact', if that one gets exploded the vehicle then moves on to 'contact' 2.

Inexorably, this leads to the discussion of ...
"If I ram (a) in a squadron and he allocates that off to (b) am I forced to stop since the rammed vehicle isn't destroyed, or is the vehicle rammed the on forced to suck it"

I would love to say "Duh, it doesn't make any sense that if you rammed a vehicle in your way and successfully got a destroyed result that you can still be stopped!!!"

...but when I do I get that uh oh feeling. You know, the same as from your creepy uncle who always wanted to "wrestle" with you when your parents weren't home?

It makes me think some thing is off the level rule-wise.

So of course, we need Gwar or equivalent to rule this out.

@ at The Dragon, the vehicles were not in a line but I get what you are saying, essentially, roll a dice for each vehicle in the squad in which there was contact and then allocate only to the vehicles that fail. right?

I would lean more towards rolling one dice for the squad then allocate the damage to the squad

Of course, this is still dependent on whether you can allocate the ramming hits.

Probably best to discuss with your opponent.

Roll one die for the Skimmer you make contact with, resolve hits.
If that one explodes then it continues moving and if another contact is made then rinse repeat.

The attacks from the Deff Rolla are close combat hits, thus they are allocated as normal since it is a squadron. If only 2 hits are made vs a 3 vehicle squadron then you can assign them to the 2 vehciles not in contact to ensure the vehicle doesn't keep moving. It may sound dumb, but thems the rules.

Only the allocating Ram hits, the Ram hit is simply a pen roll against the vehicle at the resolved strength. The rules state that squadrons may allocate the dmg as per the wound rules, and there is nothing stating that a ram singles out the vehicle for damage purposes.

I'm deployed and don't have my Ork codex with me. Can you quote the rule that states Deff Rollas are close combat hits? I don't recall that being the wording. It makes a big difference, otherwise.

Neither the codex nor the FAQ designates the hits as "close combat" hits. It's just X Strength 10 hits.

As far as I understand it, deffrolla versus skimmer squadron should go:
1 - Declare ram and move battlewagon into contact.
2 - Resolve ram against first target. If a skimmer, skimmer hit makes dodge roll to avoid ram/deffrolla.
3a - If dodge made, battlewagon stops in its tracks, no hits allocated
3b - If dodge failed, deffrolla deals d6 S10 hits to the unit
4 - Roll armor penetration for each hit
5 - Glancing/Penetrating hits are assigned to vehicles in squadron
6 - Roll vehicle damage table results for each vehicle and apply results
7a - If skimmer in contact with deffrolla battlewagon explodes (not just wrecked, EXPLODES) AND the battlewagon has movement remaining, the battlewagon continues on. If this movement brings it into contact with any other target, the process is repeated (go back to step 2).
7b - If the skimmer in contact with battlewagon does not explode, the ram event is over, the battlewagon stops.

This could mean you hit the same squadron twice or more if you continue to explode the vehicle in hull contact, but other vehicles in squadron survive. Would have made more sense to make all hits have to go to the vehicle actually struck, but the squadron rules are what they are.

here's why it seems wrong to you -

deffrollas aren't supposed to be able to hit vehicles, but some @#$%#^!! at GW decided that they should FAQ it so it does.

Skarboy wrote:Neither the codex nor the FAQ designates the hits as "close combat" hits. It's just X Strength 10 hits.

As far as I understand it, deffrolla versus skimmer squadron should go:
1 - Declare ram and move battlewagon into contact.
2 - Resolve ram against first target. If a skimmer, skimmer hit makes dodge roll to avoid ram/deffrolla.
3a - If dodge made, battlewagon stops in its tracks, no hits allocated
3b - If dodge failed, deffrolla deals d6 S10 hits to the unit
4 - Roll armor penetration for each hit
5 - Glancing/Penetrating hits are assigned to vehicles in squadron
6 - Roll vehicle damage table results for each vehicle and apply results
7a - If skimmer in contact with deffrolla battlewagon explodes (not just wrecked, EXPLODES) AND the battlewagon has movement remaining, the battlewagon continues on. If this movement brings it into contact with any other target, the process is repeated (go back to step 2).
7b - If the skimmer in contact with battlewagon does not explode, the ram event is over, the battlewagon stops.

This could mean you hit the same squadron twice or more if you continue to explode the vehicle in hull contact, but other vehicles in squadron survive. Would have made more sense to make all hits have to go to the vehicle actually struck, but the squadron rules are what they are.

You can't hit the same squadron twice as a Ram is a Tank Shock and as such the rest of the squadron moves to avoid the vehicle in the same fashion as a any other unit would. (In so far as my reading of the situations goes)

Honersstodnt - 'Kay I'll bite, why did the FAQ say "Yes. Of course it does you dummies! Ram is a special type of Tank Shock."?

Doesn't ram mention contacting a "model"?

So if it is against the model, it cannot be allocated to different models within the unit.



I don't have the rulebook on me, so you can look at your BRB and confirm it yourself.

ChrisCP wrote:
You can't hit the same squadron twice as a Ram is a Tank Shock and as such the rest of the squadron moves to avoid the vehicle in the same fashion as a any other unit would. (In so far as my reading of the situations goes)

Where in the RAMMING rules does it say vehicles get out of the way after a RAM is performed?

I see in the TANK SHOCK rules where INFANTRY move out of the way... but the RAM rules don't say anything about vehicles moving out of the way.

Again, I don't have a rulebook available, but I really don't recall some of the finer details of the rules being claimed on this thread.

-Deff Rolla hits are close combat hits (don't recall that at all)

-allocating ram attack hits to other models in a squadron being hit. (don't recall this as legal)

I do recall the squadron rules allow shooting attacks and close combat attacks to be allocating among the vehicles in a squadron (though I can't remember if this is done before/after rolls to penetrate). I don't recall a ram falling into either of those categories, thus only the vehicle being rammed is actually affected.

Anyone able to clarify?

Deff rolla is definatley a close combat attack but i would have to agree with you about the rest.

Sarigar wrote:
-Deff Rolla hits are close combat hits (don't recall that at all)

There's a confusion of terms here, a Deffrolla will cause _hits_ against a unit. They aren't defined as CC hit or anything like that but that doesn't matter as we have rules telling us what to do with hits against vehicle squadrons etc, one must roll for glances and Pens and then one allocates these around the squadron.... now for the fun bit are we allowed a CS against Glance/pens generated by deffrolla hits? I want to say no.... but have no evidence

First off, the deffrolla is NOT a close combat attack. Close combat attacks are made in the assault phase unless a rule *specifically* states they are made outside of the assault phase (looking at you Boarding Plank!). Beyond that, the deffrolla is not a close combat weapon (it is not listed as such) and the battlewagon does not have a WS (a requirement to make a close combat attack). All the deffrolla does is make d6 S10 hits when it Tank Shocks or Rams.

As for ramming squadrons goes, the rules do not sufficiently cover the situation. The best solution is to talk it over with your opponent before the game begins.

kartofelkopf wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:
You can't hit the same squadron twice as a Ram is a Tank Shock and as such the rest of the squadron moves to avoid the vehicle in the same fashion as a any other unit would. (In so far as my reading of the situations goes)

Where in the RAMMING rules does it say vehicles get out of the way after a RAM is performed?

I see in the TANK SHOCK rules where INFANTRY move out of the way... but the RAM rules don't say anything about vehicles moving out of the way.

I don't think you could actually see that as the rules refer to "Enemy units" - otherwise we couldn't tank shock bikes, MC, beasts, Jump.......

So;
"Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way," page 69
It goes on to give details of what to do with the exception that Ramming causes (a collision)
The Tank Shock rules page 68 tell us what action "Enemy units" take after a TS occurs.
A vehicle squadron is a unit and we know "If the test is passed the unit will simply let the tank move through," page 69
So a collision occurs, which is still a tank shock so we do the ram thing while still allowing the unit to do the Tank shock thing, because after all a Ram is a Tank Shock.

I've copied this across to the TS guide thread too - trying to keep it (my reasoning) in the same place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zatchmo wrote:
As for ramming squadrons goes, the rules do not sufficiently cover the situation. The best solution is to talk it over with your opponent before the game begins.

Really? Care to explain what holes you have found?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/302455.page

Come tell us all about them here