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So I've been thinking about the Horde rule, the more and more I just really can't imagine ever wanting to use it.

First off, since you have to spend 10xppmx3 (4 if you have spears) in order to get the absolute best usage out of the rule. While units are now bigger and more expensive, very very rarely will it be worth it. I'm just throwing a number that "feels" right out her at this point, but if the unit is ringing in at greater than 7ppm, you're probably losing more than you're gaining. There are a few reasons for this.

Let's just say that you have a 40 model unit of whatever, we'll just assume spearmen at this point. You can only get 7 models in b2b against your typical 5 wide "small base unit" and only 8 in b2b with your typical "big base" unit. so 7x4 =28. Meaning 12 models you wasted your points on, it's a little better for big base units meaning you only lose 8 attacks.

Now we begin to realize that you're paying an exorbitant amount of points per model for or 8 more attacks. Let's say you're paying for some 5 point spearman model. that's 200 points spent before any other bells and whistles. Now normally if you were a 7x3 unit you'd spend 105 points. (7x3 is maximum potential attacks for spears in most cases) You're telling me you're willing to spend 95 more points for 7 more attacks? Let's also not forget that these attacks are typically going to be at ws3 or ws2 and str 3 on average. Which, means you're going hit 3.5 times on average, wound 1.75 times per attack, after saves (assuming HW and SH) you're looking at .964425 wounds. We'll be generous and round up to 1. more. wound. Let's go back to the 7x3 paradigm, and I'll just spend another 35 points add another rank and get the SAME DARN BONUS FROM STATIC RES.

Not worth it for spears, obviously, but what about great weapons or halbreds, or flails? Well I can only think of 1 unit right off the top of my head that is going to come in at less than 7ppm that will also have halbreds.

Men At Arms.

Ws2 str 3, ld 5 craptastic goodness. But let's do it anyway

In todays world, let's not dance around it, most units are probably going to be running at something like 5x6 to gain the maximum possible benefit when they have terrible stats. But let's take a look at the way this sucker shakes down. 40 models again with another 7 attacks, you hit 3.5 times, wound 2 times, and after saves, you're looking at 1.6 wounds. Which is, actually a little better than to be expected. with 8 total attacks you're almost right at 2 wounds. So you've actually put an appreciable amount of wounds out there, for what could be expected to be "worthwhile" Unitl you realize that everyone under the son not in green skin, is hitting your M@Arms on 3's and doing far more wounds, that your M@ARms are STILL losing the combat, and now, you've probably lost your stubborn-ness. Which means at VERY best, they have ld9, but most likely have ld8 and probably are losing combat by 3 or 4.

That's the biggest penalty. The units that will benefit most from being stubborn from having more ranks than their opponent are the same units that we would want to consider using the "horde" rule for.

I did think of one, ONE unit that may see the largest net benefit while writing this article. Cheap Archers. 10x3 units of archers will love this rule. That's it. fin, it's over.

Good luck and happy gaming.

Of course, that 10 wide unit of 40 will outnumber most 5 wide blocks, gaining stubborn and therefore becomes much more likely to hang on and grind the other unit away...

Ragnar4, obviously you've done your thinking and it all makes sense if your playing tournaments, but from a background view, and of course playing in a friendly game, you want to use this rule. For me, this rule is great. Goblin hordes can be goblin hordes, undead hordes can be undead hordes at long last etc etc.

I can't remember the rule now, but isn't more ranks to gain steadfast instead of more numbers. Seems kind of silly though, if my 5x5=25 gains the steadfast bonus over the 4x10=40 unit all because of that extra rank. Can someone clear that up for me? Thanks.

Article is written under predication that more ranks = steadfast and not more models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Ragnar4, obviously you've done your thinking and it all makes sense if your playing tournaments, but from a background view, and of course playing in a friendly game, you want to use this rule. For me, this rule is great. Goblin hordes can be goblin hordes, undead hordes can be undead hordes at long last etc etc.

Yeah. I understand from a fluff perspective, or a just have fun perspective that it will be fun to do. In fact I intend to mess with it in my Tomb Kings army

I'm just getting the competitive gaming meta rolling.

But what happens when you show up to a friendly game with hordes and whatnot, and your buddy, who's also showing up for a "friendly fun game" eschews it for the sake of having an edge? The problem with gaming is this: Your idea of a super fun friendly game, and your opponents idea of same, may not mesh. You can't make him line his goblins up as a horde, and if he doesn't he has the advantage point for point.

Ragnar4 said:
I'm just getting the competitive gaming meta rolling.

Sorry, I have to point this out. On pg. 446 of the rule book it clearly states that Warhammer Fantasy is NOT designed to be a competitve game.

Much laughing pursued at my FLGS when we found this.

yeah being horde actually reduces your change to be steadfast which is sorta silly considering thats the entire purpose of horde

Much easier to get tons of ranks being 5 wide

The horde formation is going to be great competitive or otherwise. It is just that it will be situational. I believe that opponents will be starting out in ranks of 5, but when they realize that musicians will more easily allow reforms, and that I am fielding my units in wide ranks that are close to horde formations they may adjust their fromations in return, at which point I will widen out mine to be at the horde formation, if I am not there already.

The matchups will tell whether you want to go horde or not. I believe you can even reform in combat so that when your numbers start to dwindle, and you are losing your steadfast, then you can reform and adjust.

This is what I love about this edition. I am getting greater flexibility with the ability to explore more tactical options. Yes, those options will probably only work best in a given situation, but that is where me as the general has to decide when it is best to make an adjustment. (Now if GW would get rid of that random terrain does something different and crazy crap, I would say this is the best Warhammer rule set to date)

As a side note I can totally see a High Elven player having a unit of 50 spearmen to have 50 strike first attacks that reroll to hit at WS 4. Add the fact that I can buff these attacks or this units durability in combat with the new lores, and I have a very tough unit that will take your 30-40 6-8rank x5 wide formation down in ranks in a turn or two such that it will lose its stubborn.

Heck a lot of people are knocking Lizardmen saying they got nerfed. How b/c they have to attack last. They had to practically do that anyways except in those instances when they got to charge for that one phase. They are still tough 4 with AS of 4+. Now put them in a unit of 40 Horde size with spears and we are potentially looking at 60 str 4 attacks. granted this unit cost 480 points bare bones, but since we are talking the average game is meant to be 3000pts then it really is not that bad as Lizardmen are supposed to be an expensive army anyway, and the unit in question is something that even a Chaos Warrior unit would be a little hesitant on dealing with when their equivalent would be much more expensive, and probably not as potent, because they would be limited to only 40 str 4 attacks at horde size.

Undead armies can pretty much always go Horde since steadfast and stubborn mean nothing to them.

With the new rules I'll definitely be taking larger units of infantry (combat infantry) , for my saurus HW&sh will be 15 (instead of 10-12) and spears will be 20 (instead of 12)

I will not use horde as it just offers up too many opportunities for combo charges.

Imagine 4 or 5 bretonnian lance units into your horde of (whatever) that was meant to sweep all before it.

Like I said it would be situational. In the case of playing as Demons or Undead I can see it being very useful. Imagine a 100 zombie tarpit I don't think they would care if you charged all your bretonnians into it. You just set yourself up for a flank charge.

I still think it will be viable for other armies as well. Yes it would be vulnerable to combo charges, but this is not nesecarily a bad thing. This is what smaller supporting units are going to be for. I imagine a 100 model spear armed NG unit will still hold pretty well with nets, and be a great anvil no matter what is sent its way. Following turn you flank with your smaller units.

The only units that I am considering using Horde on are High Elf spearmen and Dwarf warriors with great weapons. Just one horde unit in the army to dish out ridiculous amounts of attacks. As I'm often reminded whenever I take a big monster, a S3 hit will still wound on a 6, and when you're rolling 51 attacks, you'll get some 6's.

Brikhause wrote:The horde formation is going to be great competitive or otherwise. It is just that it will be situational. I believe that opponents will be starting out in ranks of 5, but when they realize that musicians will more easily allow reforms, and that I am fielding my units in wide ranks that are close to horde formations they may adjust their fromations in return, at which point I will widen out mine to be at the horde formation, if I am not there already.

The matchups will tell whether you want to go horde or not. I believe you can even reform in combat so that when your numbers start to dwindle, and you are losing your steadfast, then you can reform and adjust.

This is what I love about this edition. I am getting greater flexibility with the ability to explore more tactical options. Yes, those options will probably only work best in a given situation, but that is where me as the general has to decide when it is best to make an adjustment. (Now if GW would get rid of that random terrain does something different and crazy crap, I would say this is the best Warhammer rule set to date)

As a side note I can totally see a High Elven player having a unit of 50 spearmen to have 50 strike first attacks that reroll to hit at WS 4. Add the fact that I can buff these attacks or this units durability in combat with the new lores, and I have a very tough unit that will take your 30-40 6-8rank x5 wide formation down in ranks in a turn or two such that it will lose its stubborn.

Heck a lot of people are knocking Lizardmen saying they got nerfed. How b/c they have to attack last. They had to practically do that anyways except in those instances when they got to charge for that one phase. They are still tough 4 with AS of 4+. Now put them in a unit of 40 Horde size with spears and we are potentially looking at 60 str 4 attacks. granted this unit cost 480 points bare bones, but since we are talking the average game is meant to be 3000pts then it really is not that bad as Lizardmen are supposed to be an expensive army anyway, and the unit in question is something that even a Chaos Warrior unit would be a little hesitant on dealing with when their equivalent would be much more expensive, and probably not as potent, because they would be limited to only 40 str 4 attacks at horde size.

I still don't understand why I would want to go horde. Why would I want my 40 or 50 night goblins to go up against your 50 HE spearmen? Why wouldn't I just put my ng 5 wide and 10 deep? Now I have steadfast and you lost 15 attacks. As the HE player, if everyone is going to skrink their frontage on me, why should I waste the points on those extra models? The point being that the weaker unit should always choose less frontage and more ranks for steadfast. Even when you have 50 ng going against 20 black guard, the ng are wasting points on models that can't attack.

I am sure I am missing something. I just can't convince myself that the horde rule is useful yet.

eledamris wrote:The only units that I am considering using Horde on are High Elf spearmen and Dwarf warriors with great weapons. Just one horde unit in the army to dish out ridiculous amounts of attacks. As I'm often reminded whenever I take a big monster, a S3 hit will still wound on a 6, and when you're rolling 51 attacks, you'll get some 6's.

You're assuming that every attack in the unit will be made. That's not the case. Only models that are behind models that are in b2b get to attack. (I think, I could be wrong here) If your attacking a monster that's only like 16 max attacks you're going to get. Not nearly enough.

Units that are horrible in combat want to shrink their frontage to minimize their opponents attacks.

Now if, while you were a horde, every model in the unit got to attack, reguardless of whether they met the b2b restriction, THEN we'd be getting somewhere.

On a side note. Ogres only need 6 wide to meet horde requirements. Ogres also get all of their attacks if in the 2nd rank. 18 Ogres in one unit. Worth it, or not?

I agree that the horde rule is a waste of ink, for the reasons already mentioned and more. People tend to forget that most enemy units will be 5 wide, meaning only 7 models of similar base size will be able to attack them. A unit of 21 7 wide would have 14 models attacking and +2 rank bonus. A unit of 21 in horde formation would have the same 14 models attacking for only +1 rank bonus. Now if we go to bigger units, for example 35, a unit 7 wide will have 14 models attacking in 5 ranks overall. It will stay stubborn for a while and gets a lot of extra resolution too. The same unit in horde formation gets 21 models attacking, meaning 7 extra attacks, but only has 3 ranks overall and probably isn't stubborn against anyone else except cavalry and monsters and has less extra resolution.

I simply can't see why anyone would do this. Like Ragnar said, garbage units with cheap models want a minimal frontage to limit elite units some attacks, and elite units will never want to build huge units because of template weapons, cost, other risk factors, and the fact that a few medium sized units working together (possibility to engage multiple enemies in one turn) will nearly always be stronger than one large unit.

I challenge someone to do a horde unit of 50 dwarf slayers.... acctualy I have 100 of the buggers from my slayer cult army. 1 unit, 25 wide, 4 ranks.... JOY!

The hoard rule has some very good uses.

first of all, the most obvious. Spells that buff units get extra mialage out of hoard units. This one is prety obvious.

Second. Most people have seen that the minimum needed for ranks is 5 models and as such elite units get the most attacks at 7 wide (or 6 wide for 25mm models). This has actually translated to the average unit being 6 models wide. Either they are 100mm wide or 150mm wide. This has a lot of leway in it. Against the less elite units hoard units will simply grind them down to size in short order. Agaisnt the larger elite units the hoard will get most if not all of its full attacks.

Third. With taking casualties from the rear elite units such as black guard or chaos warriors have lost a lot. They now get return attacks at them. Units such as 25 spearmen can put a dent in these elite units though they might not have the numbers to hold out forever. Hoard units have the numbers to take out these elite units.

Some things to think about when chosing a hoard unit.
Single high str attacks (great weapon) are better than multiple attacks as the multiples will lose out in subsequent ranks.
Hoards can take a lot of shooting to go down but some spells will kill them all in one shot.
If you need extra ranks you can always reform to a different formation.
Keep things cheep. 7 points is good, more gets to be a hassle but can work. More than 10 leads to some really expensive units.
40 models minimum. To take advantage of the rule you need a full set of ranks fighting after taking shooting casualties. 50 if you can afford it.

Example unit
Some people have hypothesized that marauders with great weapons and mark of khorn are the best hoard. 50 of them costs 300 pts even
Black guard in 7x3 formation costs just under 300 (more if you take a magical banner).

Marauders charge
black guard swing 22 attacks, 20 hits, 13 dead
140 mm wide means that 8 marauders are in base
32 attacks, 16 hits, 13 dead

Black guard - 12+2+1 = 15 combat res, 7 left
marauders - 13+3+1+1 = 18 combat res, 37 left

Round 2
black guard swing 14 attacks, 13 hits, 11 dead
marauders swing 30 attacks, 15 hits, black guard removed from the table.


Point for point this unit stands up to dam near any unit in the game actually. Its quite effective. Dwarf warriors with great weapons are another good unit (not long beards as they get to expensive). Dark elf spears are good if you have spells to increase their effectiveness. High elf spears are to expensive and dont need the rule anyways. Empire great swords might do decently as they have plate armor but they get expensive.

Just one more nail in the coffin on some points: Standard Skeletons and Goblins get one wounding hit for every six attacking models against an Empire Swordsman. You can't say I'm inflating this against them: They're fighting a WS<4, T3, 5+ model, and they need six attacking models to get a single wound. Horde on average, this means, is a single +1 wound bonus, +2 at best.

Just feel like re-iterating it, as people keep going "Well you get more attacks so you can put your enemy in a world of hurt!" No, you can't. You need the stats still to go with it.

~ ~ ~

@Cypher: I'm mixed on the Warrior thing, actually. Against T3 Core (See: Elves, Empire, Skaven) with so-so saves, I'd definitely suggest regular Warriors. However, if you're facing things like Orcs or Ogres, the +1 to wound is very helpful.

I think hordes of stuff like Ogres are almost ok but not so much for regular troops.

That Marauder unit is brutal.
Throw a character in there and you have a real hammer and anvil all at once.

How much would it cost for 18 ogres? I would think it would gain too much attention.

boogeyman wrote:How much would it cost for 18 ogres? I would think it would gain too much attention.

Assuming I'm not off for cost, at least 600pts for regular Bulls. You're looking at about 54 S4 attacks, before casualties, which would be about 18 wounds on a T3 / 13-14 wounds on a T4 enemy, -1 to save. Not exactly stellar, only a few behind the Marauders.

Plus you get the impact hits if you charge... and the 'stomp attack' at the end of the combat.

As I don't have the rulebook yet, I can't say how many extra attacks or what strength that will end up being.

So... let's say I charge that unit of Bulls with 12 strong Grail knights, weighin in at 400 points.

I win. handily.

Let's say I do same, with 15 knights of Errant with the errantry banner, I win again... handily

12 knights, with the banner... I win by 2. You still.. probalby.. run.

How about a unit of chaos knights with ensorceled weapons @ 6 strong? Advantage Chaos knights, luckily the bulls are stubborn. but how many turns can you weather of that kind of pain?

Too many points in too small of a basket. Especially when magic appears simply determined to mess stuff like *this* up. Purple sun of xerus anyone?

I disagree that the rule is a waste, i think it could work well for certain armies. I will only be showing armies I currently play.

Warriors of Chaos
-40+ Marauders could be pretty good as already discussed.

-18 Trolls are a powerful possibility, due to toughness, and lethality. Issues: Incredibly expensive in points and cash.

-18 Dragon Ogres are a really bad idea due to cost even with the speed boosts, could be funny versus Skaven in a friendly game but only once.

High Elves
-30 Phoenix Guard are the best unit, I have been able to find, resistant due to 4+ ward save, and 2+ versus magical spells with a modicum of effort, and terrifyingly effective with their ASF + super initiative halberds. I suggest these even over the Spear Elves. Possibly drop to 28 and throw in some characters such as Caradryan and Korhil until we see the PDF. Always suggest MR banner if available due to high priority target.

-50 Spear Elves can be great with magical spell support, and a single unit can cover your core allotment as is usual for High Elves. Recommend full command and War Banner until new PDF.

-50 Sea Guard these are similar to the Spear Elves, but even more expensive than the spear elves but could be good and has additional support uses due to the shooting you perform for the first turn. Recommend full command and War Banner until new PDF.

-30 archers a possibility, but not very useful but can fill core allotments and provide decent shooting.

Skaven 50 slaves is 100 points. Couple that with stubborn for a few turns and thats a cheap as hell tarpit unit!

ShivanAngel wrote:Skaven 50 slaves is 100 points. Couple that with stubborn for a few turns and thats a cheap as hell tarpit unit!

.

Sorry I am not familiar with Skaven. Why will they be stubborn or steadfast? Do you plan on running them 5 wide and 10 ranks to get the steadfast or just hoping that your 5 ranks of ten will be enough now in order to have more ranks? I agree that 100 points is cheap for a tarpit unit, but is it because of the horde rule?

boogeyman wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:Skaven 50 slaves is 100 points. Couple that with stubborn for a few turns and thats a cheap as hell tarpit unit!

.

Sorry I am not familiar with Skaven. Why will they be stubborn or steadfast? Do you plan on running them 5 wide and 10 ranks to get the steadfast or just hoping that your 5 ranks of ten will be enough now in order to have more ranks? I agree that 100 points is cheap for a tarpit unit, but is it because of the horde rule?

No its cause of steadfast, but still its a cheap cheap unit.

They might not do a lot of damage, but that many attacks does add up!

Plus, you will finally get the opportunity to shoot into a combat (instead of using them for single rounds of combat to misderect).

I have already watched a game where horde was an excellent tool for the player.

The posters saying it is a waste have done their due dilligence, and they have some good numbers to back up their stance. But I want to make sure that a couple things have been considered that are hard to math hammer that help horde greatly.

The first thing is having awareness of what is deployed across from you, and what is likely to engage you and on what turn. Thats something you can't generate numbers for. If you are lined up against units with no ranks or one rank, horde is immediately infinitely better than going deep beyond three ranks. Yes, you can tell what is going to be fighting you in fantasy well before you deploy, if you deploy in the correct order.

Second, if you have either a general with a good leadership nearby or good base leadership, and even better... have a BSB nearby, then reforming on the move is very easy to do. If the situation on the table changes, and it seems you will actually need more ranks, then a good player can see that and react accordingly the turn right before you need it.

Also, after every combat where no one breaks. The winner can reform for free, and the loser can reform with a passed leadership test. Is it not going well and are you about to lose that rank thats keeping you in the fight? Pass that high leadership test (with a re-roll) and re-form to a massive number of ranks.

If a player can accurately predict around how many models he is going to lose per combat, and how many ranks his opponents will have when he is fighting them, then there are actually quite a few opportunities to use the "FREE" horde rule.

Are you fighting a monster/chariot/cavalry/monstrous cavalry/expensive infantry with just one rank/skirmishers/monstrous infantry? Then there is only an advantage to horde and no disadvantage.

Are you fighting something with nearly as many ranks as you? Are you in danger of having less ranks than this enemy after combat? Then either deploy accordingly or reform accordingly prior to receiving the charge. Are you about to have less ranks in the middle of an ongoing combat? Then reform during the combat.

If you are curious what unit i saw use the rule, it was a 40 strong dwarf warrior unit with just hand weapon and shield. It marched forward, received an ill-advised charge from a swordmaster unit and chopped them to bits, then reformed into a 'regular' formation to solidify its number of ranks and was able to continue on and fight a sea guard unit. There was absolutely no disadvantage to him being 4x10 when the swordmasters were the only unit threatening that charge. And after that fight was completed and he wasn't going to be getting a maximum static combat resolution as a horde, he simply ceased to be a horde. For free...

Is it the most powerful rule of all time? No. Do you have a 30-40 model unit that is lined up against 6x monstrous infantry, 5x cavalry, a griffon, 10x greatswords, 2x chariots? Would you like some free attacks? Then use the horde rule.