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So I'll be going to my first tournament in a month, and to give myself the best fighting chance I can get, I thought I'd ask around and see what kind of units I absolutely do not want to run into (I play Black Templars BTW). My local metagame is mostly Orks and Eldar, with a CSM player and a BA every now and then. Unfortunately, the Eldar player doesn't use a Seer Bike Council, so I have no idea how to counter them or even what makes them so deadly, all I know about them is that they're dead 'ard and killy.

I basically want to know if there's any "doomsday" units like the council or the Doom that I should know of and try to kill ASAP. Not "dangerous" units, mind you, but rather "if you don't fix these units you can kiss your army goodbai"-level.

Complex Nobz are Dead 'Ard... here is the typical load out

1. Pain Boy
2. Waaaugh! Banner
3. Bosspole
4. Powerklaw
5. Powerklaw + Ammo runt
6. Powerklaw + Kombi-Skorcha
7. Big Choppa
8. Big choppa + Ammo Runt
9. Big Choppa + Kombi-skorcha
10. Normal Nob

Some people give them the 5++, some the 4+ armor, some just put them on bikes, and some put them on bikes and give them a 5++ save...

The Above idea is that 11 wounds to kill one guy, it can easily multi-assault, and it is a troop choice.

The women and any "free" food...

Just read up on your FAQs and dont be the ultra agrressive player who charges the deathstar unit

Tournaments are competitive, thats what they're about. Thats not a bad thing, but be sure to expect it.

I find the most important thing is to introduce yourself to your opponent. Be polite and show him your list, don't wait to be asked for it. Explain whats in each squad and any special rules. Its only courteous, but your opponent might be helpful in return!

Also, before you start unpacking your armies and rolling for deployment, it helps to go over the table. is this dangerous or difficult terrain. Is this a 5+ or a 4+ cover save. Taking the time to set the game up right will save you from major arguments.

Go there and have a great time, and let us know how you get on!

Every codex is capable of a deathstar to some degree, so there's no avoiding it. The likelihood of seeing it depends on points levels and the playing styles of the other players. Don't worry about it too much and ask a lot of questions if someone has something in their list you haven't seen before. The best is advice I can give is: KNOW YOUR OWN LIST BACKWARDS AND FORWARDS. If you know what your army can do, and can think on your feet, you should be able to adapt to anything you might face. Good luck and have fun.

You'll usually figure out pretty quickly how to approach your opponent, because you're presumably a human being and hence have some human social skills. You will never know until the end of the game, though, if it has been a good one, so your best bet is to be as helpful and polite as possible, and treat it like any other occasion where you might be called upon to work with someone. Despite him/her being your opponent, you're in it together to make you both have fun which is usually the point.

Now, you're either going to get an opponent that is completely unmentionable, a shocking human being (cheating, belligerence, body odour) who tests the normal inhibitions that stop you running around stabbing people, or an absolute champ who'll give you a fun game and ask nothing in return but a beer for the one he bought you. I don't know 'bout you Americans, but 'round here it's not uncommon to have events held at clubs where club-price drinks are aplenty. They take the edge off in any case, if that's your thing.

The shortlist of things you want to deal with quickly and carefully are Nob Bikers, Seer Councils, clusters of Lootas, Bloodcrushers (they're a dangerous distraction when used properly, and can't be ignored) and certain uses of the humble Valkyrie. When it comes to more obscure units, Rough Riders will absolutely wipe you if you don't know how they work, and get ready to feel completely and utterly taken advantage of if your opponent brings Swooping Hawks to the table. Yes, they really can do that.

Good luck!

Fateweaver can change the whole game. either go for murdering him or just ignore him but dont half ass it.

Fateweaver + Bloodcrushers means this guy means business. Fatey can be fragile, though, so blow those dice and just hope he pops.

Read up on some of the more obscure armies

You can be blood certain that there's one git who's going to bring something you've rarely/never played against before

Running into a Wych cult army for the first time is painful.

Lootas are bastards. Big, shooty, orky bastards. They're fairly easy to break, but God help you if you're in their LOS and they roll 45 str 7 attacks.

Which they'll hit, on average, with 15 of. Don't forget to mathhammer!

QuietOrkmi wrote:Complex Nobz are Dead 'Ard... here is the typical load out

1. Pain Boy
2. Waaaugh! Banner
3. Bosspole
4. Powerklaw
5. Powerklaw + Ammo runt
6. Powerklaw + Kombi-Skorcha
7. Big Choppa
8. Big choppa + Ammo Runt
9. Big Choppa + Kombi-skorcha
10. Normal Nob

Some people give them the 5++, some the 4+ armor, some just put them on bikes, and some put them on bikes and give them a 5++ save...

The Above idea is that 11 wounds to kill one guy, it can easily multi-assault, and it is a troop choice.

While I appreciate what you're trying to do could we all avoid assertions like this? The typical load out....... there isn't one~! That could be your typical loadout however!

Sorry to be so picky but it did irked me


So My 'typical' load out varies game to game but for these 5 mins here's another

1. Pain Boy
2. Waaaugh! Banner
3. Powerklaw
4. Powerklaw + Kombi-skorcha
5. Big Choppa
6. Big Choppa + Bosspole
7. Big Choppa + Ea
8. Big Choppa + Ammo Runt
9. Big Choppa + Kombi-skorcha
10. Big Choppa + Kombi-Rock

Meh, it was more of copypasta from Dash's list... I like your list CP, it has a lot of S7 attacks

The point is that Complex Nobz can vary thanks to the options in the ork codex but expect S7 I4, S9 power, and WS 5 from them...

Two power klaws versus three power klaws can be a decent enough difference.

QuietOrkmi wrote:
The point is that Complex Nobz can vary thanks to the options in the ork codex but expect S7 I4, S9 power, and WS 5 from them...

Haha Bingo, they are they scariest (11 wounds!) Monstorus Creature in the whole game! Nom nom nom~!

True two PK vs three is a difference. As I indicated there are many many different ways of decking them - a unit that can range from ~150 to ~600 points - and be a real threat through the whole point range!

Seer councils are very tough to bring down without Null Zone.

shame your bringing Templars.



For your Rightious Zeal moves: remember that you don't have to move the full distance rolled. you can roll 6" and move .00099999999 inches.

Abhor the Witch could work as all members of the council are Psykers. Eldar in general will have psykers.



in general LR spam works pretty well. 3+ crusaders and a couple of Vanilla LRs would be fine. Max out the crusader squads in the Crusaders to have a nasty suprise for anyone that pops one.

Grey Templar wrote:Seer councils are very tough to bring down without Null Zone.

shame your bringing Templars.



For your Rightious Zeal moves: remember that you don't have to move the full distance rolled. you can roll 6" and move .00099999999 inches.

Abhor the Witch could work as all members of the council are Psykers. Eldar in general will have psykers.



in general LR spam works pretty well. 3+ crusaders and a couple of Vanilla LRs would be fine. Max out the crusader squads in the Crusaders to have a nasty suprise for anyone that pops one.

Well, the thing is, I have no idea what I'll be facing. Also, giving up ATC, NMTO is kinda pointless, since it's so insanely OP.

What is it that makes the Seer Council so impossible to kill? Also, I have absolutely no idea what the Fateweaver is. Anyone feel like enlightening me?

Fateweaver is a Monstrous Creature from Codex Chaos Deamons
he allows all friendly units with a model in 6" to reroll their saving throws (he himself got an 3++)

The Seer Council (on bikes mostly) are tough because they also can reroll their 4++ invul. save thanks to the power "Fortune" of the farseer.
and they are deadly because they have S9 against vehicles and wound anything with a Toughness value on 2+, properly kitted out they have multiple heavy flamer equivalents, can reroll morale checks, have high Initiative valvue... the list goes on^^

Don't forget to let us know how you got on and what your experiences were, Mr Walrus.

The best of luck to you!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:So I'll be going to my first tournament in a month, and to give myself the best fighting chance I can get, I thought I'd ask around and see what kind of units I absolutely do not want to run into (I play Black Templars BTW). My local metagame is mostly Orks and Eldar, with a CSM player and a BA every now and then. Unfortunately, the Eldar player doesn't use a Seer Bike Council, so I have no idea how to counter them or even what makes them so deadly, all I know about them is that they're dead 'ard and killy.

I basically want to know if there's any "doomsday" units like the council or the Doom that I should know of and try to kill ASAP. Not "dangerous" units, mind you, but rather "if you don't fix these units you can kiss your army goodbai"-level.

Every army has their own "Death" unit.

For us Black Templars, it's our Assault Terminators.

Imagine this: Terminators with Lightning Claws, four attacks each, rerolling to hit, rerolling to wound, and hitting at Strength 5 and Initiative 5.

HO-LY SH**.

With that said, they have a few downsides:

First, they are expensive as hell. I don't know how many points you are playing for, but they don't always fit into a list.

Second, they need a transport. THEY NEED A TRANSPORT. FOOTSLOGGING IS A NO-NO. And the only (feasible) transport is the LRC, which is expensive and has the crappy POTMS.

Third, they have crappy storm shields. 4+ save in close combat? Why?

Bottom line, if you can get the charge on the Nobz, you'll kill them. If they get the charge on you...well......you might not be winning that battle.

Emperor's Servant wrote:The Seer Council (on bikes mostly) are tough because they also can reroll their 4++ invul. save thanks to the power "Fortune" of the farseer.

So they're basically Eldrad light, except there's what, 9 of them? o,0

t would certainly depend on your local tournament scene.

I will approach it from my local perspective. I live near Chicago and see a lot of scenario based tournaments.

With these tournaments I often never see the missions before I play them. That said, the best way to prepare for a tournament is to play the scenarios ahead of time. In my case however, I can't

For me, tournament prep comes down to list construction and game day reminders and focus.

List Constuction
for me it is all about minimizing the ways I can be negatively affected by weird rule changes and additions without totally compromising on effectiveness. I would rather be at a minor handicap in all my games then be massively screwed in one game. I can make up small shortfalls with superior generalship, but if your list is completely nerfed there is not much you can do. With the general philosophy out of the way, lets look at some of the variables I consider when building my list.

HQ choice
This is a no brainer, in almost every tournament there is a kill the HQ objective. Its not often the main objective, but it is a common secondary or tertiary objective. With that in mind, I make my HQ durability as high as possible. The best way is with a retinue, but having a squad to babysit is fine too. Spend a few points on terminator honors or that invulnerability save and you will be glad you did.

Troops choice
With nearly all tournaments using objective based missions troops are the most important dudes in your army. You win or lose based on their performance. Do you have enough troop to hold 3 or 4 objectives often for multiple turns to gain points or bonuses. Are you troops resilient enough to hold an exposed objective or defend against an assault

Reserves
Would your list be totally compromised if there was a penalty to reserve rolls or if deep strikes scattered an additional d6. What about if they didn't allow outflanking scouting or infiltrating.

Mobility
How would you deal with a scenario that slowed down your units. Would you still be able to function? Could you contest a far away table quarter or objective?

Unit types
Does your army have a mix of unit types so that a mission special rule doesn't completely nerf it.

Save Denial
Do I have the ability to deny cover/invul saves that may be granted by special rules

All of these should be at least considered on top of basic list building principles like redundancy and ensuring a correct balance of MEQ horde and anti tank weapons. Finally I take into account the local meta game and prepare for basic arch-types of armies. Some examples (Deathwing, KFF mech orks, fateweaver daemons, seer council eldar, drop pod marines, tau, raider spam dark eldar, Air force IG, chimera spam IG, Dreadnaught spam, dual-lith necrons, lash oblit CSM. You should take a few minutes and think about how you would deal with each one of these armies. How would you deploy, would you like to go first or second, what are the dangerous units? Then when you face them you can think back to that 5 minutes brainstorm and be more prepared.

Game day
Get to the venue early and have a look around the tables and more importantly get the rules packet as soon as possible. Ask questions during this period. Then grab a highlighter and go through each mission. What is the primary, secondary, tertiary objective? Are there any bonus points? Are there any special rules for units or terrain? Once that is done, open your eyes and ears. Look at the armies people are getting ready and think back to your brainstorms about how to defeat them and make little mental notes or corrections. Make note of someone talking up their favorite unit. IF you play them then you know which unit to destroy to demoralize them.

Finally, when you are playing constantly ask yourself what am I going to do next. Plan your moves during your opponents turn. Every turn look at the packet to remind yourself of the mission and the objectives.

Good Luck

Razor

AlmightyWalrus wrote:So I'll be going to my first tournament in a month, and to give myself the best fighting chance I can get, I thought I'd ask around and see what kind of units I absolutely do not want to run into (I play Black Templars BTW). My local metagame is mostly Orks and Eldar, with a CSM player and a BA every now and then. Unfortunately, the Eldar player doesn't use a Seer Bike Council, so I have no idea how to counter them or even what makes them so deadly, all I know about them is that they're dead 'ard and killy.

I basically want to know if there's any "doomsday" units like the council or the Doom that I should know of and try to kill ASAP. Not "dangerous" units, mind you, but rather "if you don't fix these units you can kiss your army goodbai"-level.

Just realized I forgot to answer the second part of your question with my previous post:

Death Units:

Necrons: Deceiver + Monolith. Don't even bother. Ignore them, go for phase out.

Daemons: Already mentioned Fateweaver.

Orks: Already mentioned Nobs:

Eldar: Already mentioned Bike Council. Also, Wrathlords cannot be hurt in CC by regular marines.

Chaos Daemons: Lash is nasty if you're footslogging. It can remove you from an objective, too!

Space Wolves: Uhm.....Thunderwolf Cavalry?

Blood Angels: Mephiston fits best here.

Tyranid: Trygon prime, oh god. Stay out of combat from it unless you can hit it hard.


There are others, but I'm not remembering off the top of my head.

Best of luck!

Fxeni wrote:
Necrons: Deceiver + Monolith. Don't even bother. Ignore them, go for phase out.

Regarding that, exactly how does Phase Out work? I know there's something about a certain amount of dead necrons, but that's it. I guess it's some sort of "your guys are dead, you lose!" rule for the poor Necrons?

Kill 75% of things with the Necron rule and he loses.

Things that are necrons.

Warriors, Destroyers, Hvy Destroyers, Wraiths, Flayed ones, and Lords.


there are 2 ways Necron players avoid Phase Out.

1) they bring a TON of necron models. this will usually mean no more then 1 Monolith(And only at high pt games) The weakness of this list is it won't have any Templates for Horde Stopping and only a Few Necron weapons ignore PA. Fast Mechanised forces with even average CC ability will rip them apart.

2) they bring 3 monoliths and a C'tan. these form a wall of AV14 with one of the nastiest MCs in the game behind it. the weekness of this list is it will have very few Necrons, but they are hiding behin the Monos. if you can get behind them then its over.



Monos are resistant to most shooting attacks, but anything with Str10 will kill them fairly easily. Monos only move 6" so Dreadnoughts(if they don't die on the way in) will pretty reliably kill them. Lascannons can still kill Monos so those are good to bring.

in general you want to get into CC with Necrons.

Grey Templar wrote:Kill 75% of things with the Necron rule and he loses.

Things that are necrons.

Warriors, Destroyers, Hvy Destroyers, Wraiths, Flayed ones, and Lords.


there are 2 ways Necron players avoid Phase Out.

1) they bring a TON of necron models. this will usually mean no more then 1 Monolith(And only at high pt games) The weakness of this list is it won't have any Templates for Horde Stopping and only a Few Necron weapons ignore PA. Fast Mechanised forces with even average CC ability will rip them apart.

2) they bring 3 monoliths and a C'tan. these form a wall of AV14 with one of the nastiest MCs in the game behind it. the weekness of this list is it will have very few Necrons, but they are hiding behin the Monos. if you can get behind them then its over.



Monos are resistant to most shooting attacks, but anything with Str10 will kill them fairly easily. Monos only move 6" so Dreadnoughts(if they don't die on the way in) will pretty reliably kill them. Lascannons can still kill Monos so those are good to bring.

in general you want to get into CC with Necrons.

While we're on the subject of CC, is there anything out there that I absolutely DON'T want to get into CC with? I guess Doom and C'tan would be bad, and MCs in general. Anything else?

C'tan,

Anything with high I power weapons(Banshees)

Tarpit units(Guard Blob squads, big units of gretchin, large units of Kroot)

BA and Vanilla Marine TH/SS terminators. 3+ invulns and the BAs WILL have FNP.

BAs should be avoided unless you have Power weapons. they will most likely have FNP so you need to neutrilize it.

Killa Kans and Deffdreds. shoot these guys.

Speaking of the hammernators, what exactly do I kill them with as Templars? There's not gonna be a whole lot of volume of fire compared to other marines. I guess I just point everything at them and pray to the Dice gods, and hope that Suck, mighty god of Fail doesn't strike?

Well, Suck God of fail would'nt have to touch you.

Norm, the god of Averages will kill you.



The best ways to kill models with awsome invulns is to get rid of them. the problem is Psychic powers are the only things that do that effectivly.

Even your own Hammernators will fail as they only have the 4++.


the bast thing to do is avoid them. if in a LR then you NEED to pop that thing ASAP.

other then that you can't do much.

You said you were playing black templars correct, that would mean you have the option of taking a lot of LR at a cheaper price...

Brain wrote:Are you thinking what I am thinking?