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I was just flicking through Codex: Deamon Hunters and reading the backgroud of the Grey Knights when something really confused me:

'Legend tells that it was around the time of the Secon Founding that the Emperor ordered the creation of this secret Chapter of Space Marines. The fragile Imperium had only just survived the galatic civil way (note it's not fething star wars) of the Horus Heresy, and was still very much at the mercy of the powers of Chaos. The Emperor understood that it would require a dedicated band of incorruptible warriors to protect it from the dread creatures of Chaos in the days to come, and so the creation of the Grey Knights was undertaken in secrecy. Where other Space Marine chapters were created form the Gene-Seed of existing chapters the Grey Knights were unique in that their gene-seed was said to have come from the Emperor's own flesh.'

Two glaring problems strike me about this paragraph:

1/ How did the Emperor communicate this wonderful insight as by this time he was interred in the Golden Throne and not in the mood for chatting. Unless I have missed some fluff where it states that the Emperor continued to take tea with Dorn and Gulliman (via a straw aka Stephen Hawking) until one day he just became completely uncommunicative (probably after reading Gulliman's silly book)?

2/ How was Gene-seed created from the Emperor's own flesh. As I understand it all geneseed is taken from the primarchs and was created by the Emperor without actually getting the Primarchs to do anything. Subsequently geneseed is taken from the progenoid glands of each Space marine who grows and extra set so each Space Marine has one set in them and one that can be removed when it has matured. So how when the only being in the Universe who could create Gene Seed from scratch was sitting in a golden wheelchair did someone create geen-seed from his flesh? As far as I know Fabius Bile is the only being to have come close to recreating Space Marine type beings (Jame Swallow can't remember which book) but even he has ultimately failed and his creations are very primative.

Any information would be fantastic.

It's simple... GW just makes crap up like all the other fluff you come across. This is what make them so over the top. No rhyme or reason to the fluff they put out, the players will swallow it every time.

Originally it was written that the Emperor did indeed communicate directly with people even after being placed into the Golden Throne, before lapsing into silence for X thousand years.

..as to if that is still the case.... .. guess we'll have to wait until either the end of the HH series or perhaps some elaboration in Codex : Grey Knights/similar or an Inquisition book/release.

I think the geneseed thing is really just an erroneous bit of fluff due to them C & P ing old fluff. I guess you could argue that, technically, all geneseed is the Emperor's.. as in he owns it all...

I think the important bit is "Legend tells". What follows is then the origin of they Grey Knights told from the perspective of 10000 years later. There may be a grain of truth in it or it maybe totally false but it's what someone living in the 41st millenium has heard. It is not meant to be taken as a statement of fact from GW that in our game, for daemon hunters this is where the Grey Knights come from.

The reason is to try and pique your interest in them so you go and buy the miniatures. The rhyme is by making it a legend it doesn't matter if you contradict canon, the legend is simply wrong.

As for the true origin. As an occasional daemon hunters player I am used to living in hope, and I hope future Horus Heresy books might shed some light.

Oh good at least I can now put it down to GW's inconsistancy rather than a great big chunck of fluff I missed. I do very much like the comparrison between Stephen Hawking and the Emperor both super intelligant but neither able to physically do much. Before anyone jumps on me I am being complementary and realistic rather than discriminatory.

During the Horus heresy, the Emperor had Malcador, the head of the Council of Terra (the most poweful psyker second only to the Emperor), inspect Nathaniel Garro and his squad for corruption, they proved to be untainted with high resistance to corruption. These are the first Grey Knights (when the Order was formed). The Emperor had previously told Malcador about wanting to create the Grey Knights and its Malcador who acutally Orders the creation. And the Emperor's body was for the most part intact when the second founding happened.

Where is this written? I have seen this crop up in loads of threads but there has never been evidence that Garro et al were the original Grey Knights. I am aware that there is an audio book coming out concerning Garro however I am led to believe he is the originator of the Deathwatch not the Grey Knights, but we will soon see. Malcador dies before the Emperor.

Personally, I figured the Emps ordered the creation of the Grey Knights when the heresy was in full swing, but had yet reached Terra. Emps got everything ready to go, then after the end of the heresy Garro and crew got down to slicing out giant catacombs in Titan for their use as uber-badasses.

The Grey Knights do go through the Soul Binding, just like navigators do, even now. I'm sure Emps may have still been talking, even if it was through a vox-box Stephen Hawking style, when the Grey Knights first round of initiates came to get whatever happens during the Soul Binding.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

The Grey Knights do go through the Soul Binding, just like navigators do, even now..

Do they ? Where did you get that from ? The process normally burns out the retinal nerves and the Grey Knights suffer from no such limitation in the novels and the like.

I thought I read it in the codex, but I suppose I may have read it in one of the GK books. I'd really have to go back and check, but I know I've read it somewhere before.

Edit: well it wasn't in the codex, so I must have read it in one of the novels. However, I know those are not considered canon.

reds8n wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:

The Grey Knights do go through the Soul Binding, just like navigators do, even now..

Do they ? Where did you get that from ? The process normally burns out the retinal nerves and the Grey Knights suffer from no such limitation in the novels and the like.

Ah, there was some fluff about various Inquisitors going to the emperor for the soul binding. It is different for each type. For Navigators it is a bloodline mutation and it is their third eye they use to navigate they supposedly do not need the binding. You were thinking of the astropaths that help the imperium communicate to each other, think of it as losing your sight to amp-up your communication ability of some other fun.

I had read this too about Gray Knights going to the emperor but cannot get my hands on where. I remember it was more a privilege or a reminder of what they do more than some means of protection.

Either way for GW it is win-win, make fluff up as you go and any contradictions can be blamed on the confusion and passage of time in the 40k universe. Different authors like to put their own spin on things and do not always want to be constrained by what came before. It is interesting how much our own histories are written by the victors and the beaten seem to remember things a bit different. What is the saying?: "One man's history is another man's rhetoric."

IIRC, in 2nd ed's Dark Millenium book, the Grey Knights were drawn from the various chapters of Space Marines, much as the Deathwatch are. Of course, retconning is one of GW's favorite pastimes.

Sigmatron wrote:During the Horus heresy, the Emperor had Malcador, the head of the Council of Terra (the most poweful psyker second only to the Emperor), inspect Nathaniel Garro and his squad for corruption, they proved to be untainted with high resistance to corruption. These are the first Grey Knights (when the Order was formed). The Emperor had previously told Malcador about wanting to create the Grey Knights and its Malcador who acutally Orders the creation. And the Emperor's body was for the most part intact when the second founding happened.

technically wouldn't Garros and his squads geneseed be that of the emperors flesh seeing as the primarchs were created from himself?

If that is the case read the last line of the original quote I posted and ask what the point was in the author writing it. According to the Codex the Grey Knights gene-seed has not been corrupted (for want of a better term) by being part of a primarch since it has come straight from the Emperor.

Emps obviously had geneseed he developed himself instead of culling from the Primarchs lying around in the remnants of his lab, which he gave to the GK apothecaries and Ordo Malleus to start making their uber-badasses.

Other than that passage, how would Emps even have any Geneseed, he didn't have progenoid glands (I think those are the organ that grow the geneseed). It must have been geneseed he created for the GK in his lab or something.

Didn't the emperor order the chapter to be founded before he went all crippy boy on us?

Aparently not if they were formed at the time of the second founding which was I believe a process that began about ten years after the Siege of Terra (could well be wrong on that time period).

I thought it wasn't certain that Nathaniel Garro and his squad became the GKs. From what I have seen (only brief paragraphs having not read the book) there is a possibility that the Emperor was talking about the inquisition rather than the GKs, although I could easily be wrong.

Just after the heresy the Emperor was stil able to comunicate, and he still can psychically but it has just become rarer.

As for how it used his geneseed if it's true. A lot of tech has been lost since the heresy. There is a good chance the Emperor wasn't the only one who knew how to make geneseed.

Just before the Second Founding, the Imperium was still reeling in shock from the recent galactic civil war, and very vulnerable. The Emperor ordered the creation of a 'secret chapter' of the Space Marines: chapter six-hundred-and-sixty-six. The gene-seed for this chapter is strongly suspected to have been taken from the Emperor directly. After their creation, the chapter was assigned to the Ordo Malleus as their Chamber Militant. The name of this chapter has become legend, and is feared throughout the galaxy by those it opposes, and is whispered in reverence by all those it protects: the Grey Knights.

thats from Lexicanum, but i'm not sure if yall consider it a reputable source

Ed_Bodger wrote:Oh good at least I can now put it down to GW's inconsistancy rather than a great big chunck of fluff I missed.

What inconsistency? So far as I'm aware, they haven't yet ret-conned the idea that the Emperor was still communicating after being interred in the Golden Throne.

So far as the Geneseed thing goes, the Emperor created the Primarchs' geneseed in the first place. So presumably, he could have used the same process on himself, or the 'geneseed' used to create the Grey Knights was something slightly different. Or the fact that the fluff only says that it is 'said' or 'rumoured' that the geneseed came directly from the Emperor is apocryphal, and the Grey Knights' origins are not actually known for sure...

So far the fluff on Gk's origins are hazy at best, no direct answer of what or when they were made...hopefully the HH series or the next Gk codex will clear this up but knowing GW they will probably add even more things/retcon on top of it and make things even more confusing...but having hazy origins is what makes the GKs so interesting...

insaniak wrote:

Ed_Bodger wrote:Oh good at least I can now put it down to GW's inconsistancy rather than a great big chunck of fluff I missed.

What inconsistency? So far as I'm aware, they haven't yet ret-conned the idea that the Emperor was still communicating after being interred in the Golden Throne.

So far as the Geneseed thing goes, the Emperor created the Primarchs' geneseed in the first place. So presumably, he could have used the same process on himself, or the 'geneseed' used to create the Grey Knights was something slightly different. Or the fact that the fluff only says that it is 'said' or 'rumoured' that the geneseed came directly from the Emperor is apocryphal, and the Grey Knights' origins are not actually known for sure...

The general inconsistancy that surrounds most of GW fluff. Where other companies might edit and tweak existing fluff GW and Black Library Authors (who are approved by GW) use a steam roller to make changes an example of this would be in the Raven Guard audiobook (the name escapes me) the Legion is quoted as 80,000 strong, in numerous other sources we are told the average legion size was about 10,000.

OT evey quote that has been put on so far has failed to adequately explain how Gene Seed was created from the Emperor's flesh after death. Also if the Emperor could communicate after his internment in the Golden Throne then this raises many other questions about why he did not give direction on other issues such as 'Hey Russ you can't cure me so stay out of the Eye of Terror and keep leading the Imperiums armys from within normal space; Johnson you have done very little while I was getting my ass handed to me by Horus so stop chasing the fallen grow a pair and play a part in leading the Imperium, Dorn nice job sticking me in this well done, Khan don't get stuck in the web way it's silly, Vulkan WTF are you? Corax don't piss about with Gene Seed daddy know best do it the old fashioned way; Blood Angels tough break guys daddys seas but grand pa still loves you so just put a bit more gralic in those rations, Rowboat you are a dick but good book I see you can do something useful but stay away from nasty Fulgrim he is much more badass than you.

I think my point got slightly distracted there but I have not seen anything that says the Emperor could communicate directly after he got put on the Golden Throne.

The reason we can't explain how the geneseed was made is because we don't know what the process for making geneseed is. All we know is he used genetic information from the primarchs to make it. Instead who ever made it could just use his information.

There are reccords of the Emperor using psychic communication. Mid way through another rebelion he spoke to Alicia Dominica and created the sisters of battle.

I'm not suggesting anyone here knows how to make geen seed what I am saying is that the Emperor is thge only one that does. CSM are constantly suffering from undermanning (read Storm of Iron) and if there was someone who could create new gene seed I am sure they would have made every effort to capture either them or the information themselves but we have heard nothing about this. Therefore I presume that gene seed can only be replicated by growing it in Space Marines not in a lab.

The Ad mech know the basics (they may have known more as a lot of information has been lost since the heresy). At the time just after the heresy they were still a practical thinking organisation, the relgious aspects had not fully kicked in yet. It is very unlikely the Emperor made all of the Geneseed for the SM by himself. He would need people to work for him. They probably did know how to do it, even if they didn't think of it themselves.

The Grey knight gene-seed is most likely grown in a lab like we grow skin and tissue today from the emperors actual tissue.

As for the normal space marines is not grown from the emperors tissue its from the primarchs which is why they are more likey to become heretics/traitors (less connected to the emperor).

And the emperor well he is just sitting on the golden throne cursing its windows 98 for crashing again and wondering why no one has tried to use gene-seeds to revive him

Gavin Thorne wrote:IIRC, in 2nd ed's Dark Millenium book, the Grey Knights were drawn from the various chapters of Space Marines, much as the Deathwatch are. Of course, retconning is one of GW's favorite pastimes.

Nope, no such mention in Dark Millenium.

Ed_Bodger wrote:OT evey quote that has been put on so far has failed to adequately explain how Gene Seed was created from the Emperor's flesh after death.

He's not dead. And the fluff doesn't explain everything. That's not an inconsistency, that's just the fluff not explaining everything. They don't tell us how the Primarchs were originally created, or how the geneseed for the original Legions was created either...

Also if the Emperor could communicate after his internment in the Golden Throne then this raises many other questions about why he did not give direction on other issues such as 'Hey Russ you can't cure me so stay out of the Eye of Terror and keep leading the Imperiums armys from within normal space; Johnson you have done very little while I was getting my ass handed to me by Horus so stop chasing the fallen grow a pair and play a part in leading the Imperium, Dorn nice job sticking me in this well done, Khan don't get stuck in the web way it's silly, Vulkan WTF are you? Corax don't piss about with Gene Seed daddy know best do it the old fashioned way; Blood Angels tough break guys daddys seas but grand pa still loves you so just put a bit more gralic in those rations, Rowboat you are a dick but good book I see you can do something useful but stay away from nasty Fulgrim he is much more badass than you.

Again, easily chalked up to just the fluff not being a complete history. We're given snippets that suggest that he could communicate (and 'proof' in the form of the Inquisition War trilogy). How easily, how often, and how well is unknown.

So rather than ordering around a group of Primarchs who he had faith in to do what they deemed necessary, he possibly just confined himself to communicating the things he felt the most important.

I think my point got slightly distracted there but I have not seen anything that says the Emperor could communicate directly after he got put on the Golden Throne.

Other than the bit of fluff that says that the Grey Knights were created after the Heresy on his orders?

As I mentioned just before, it's also covered in the Inquisition War books, and it's been mentioned elsewhere as well, but I'm not about to go digging through the books for references.

because its not true: hence the "Legend says".

Legends about about Abbadon being the clone son of Horus which is not true.

Havoc13 wrote:It's simple... GW just makes crap up like all the other fluff you come across. This is what make them so over the top. No rhyme or reason to the fluff they put out, the players will swallow it every time.

QFT