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So by my previous posts you guys know i'm a huge fan of Count-as. Here is a link to my "Daemon Army":
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/294553.page

So I was thinking that while I like the idea of a jetbike army the actual models leave a lot to be desired. After consider how many I need and how much converting I'd have to do to get what I'd like out of it I came up with an idea that I wanted to run by the community. Now this will be a tournament army so take that into consideration to. Would you have a problem if you faced off against it at a tournament if it was explained to you before the match started?

So my Idea was to do a winged angelic host that would count as a Jetbike list. The new sanguinary guard box set is my main inspiration for me. So here are my thoughts on each model type, how I would build it, and how it would represent that unit in the marine codex. All models would be mounted on 40mm for standardnization purposes (This is what I'd base my bikes on so I could do a detailed base for them if I did normal Jetbikes). Preferrably I'll also be building all of them flying off the base (even if it's only a tiny bit).

Paint Scheme would most likely be Nightlords/Renegade style paint scheme and all the models would naturally be mutated (Giant wings )

So on to the models:

Farseer:

So the base would be a pair of Sanguinary Guard Legs and backplate. The front plate would be a Black Templar robed front with the icons cleaned off. One arm would be the rune axe from the Space Wolf Terminator sprue. His other arm would be a SG bolter arm to represent the TL-SC's. He'd naturally have the wings from the SG kit. His head would be bare but with a custom built psychic hood to represent runes of warding. I'm torn between using the jump backpack or the standard. I think the standard backpack would tie in the mutation thing.

Warlocks:

Same as the above but with fully helmeted heads. Cut down Khorne beserker helmets. Probably the skull helmets to show their more elite status. I'd likely use GK's Nemesis Halberds for my Singing spears and I'd use rune swords of some type for the Witchblades. SG Bolter arms again to represent the SC's which have almost the exact same profile and range. Possibly use SG torsos.

Autarch:

SG legs. Not sure about the head but it will be bare to make characters easier to see since Counts-as armies need to be as easy to determine as possible. Probably a head with bionic eyes to represent the mandi-blasters. I'll use a SG arm but converter it to get using a cut-down Brightlance to represent the laser lance. Other arm will again be a SG bolter arm.

Guardian Jetbike:

Assault Marine Legs and Chest. Dual Wielding Pistols or Bolters to represent the TL-SC's? If I make some Shurken Cannons then I can probably do a heavy bolter/assault cannon.

Shining Spears:

Similar to Autarch. Star Lances will need to be larger than standard Laser Lance. Also will use cut down Khorne Beserker heads that look like knight helms when cut down. SG Bolter Arms. Probably full on SG Torso's as well to represent elite status.

That's it. So:

Would you mind playing against this in a tournament?
Would it adequitely represent a Jetbike army? (If anything they'll be taller than standard Jetbikes)
Would you think this was a neat army to play against?

Thanks guys for reading thru this if you did with no pictures. If I get a couple of responses I'll build a test model.

Yes, I'd very much so mind. Using models to represent a totally different race, weapons and even unit types would be way too much. This coming from someone who loves "counts as" ideas.

So you also have problems with my adeptus mechanicus army above? I'm just curious as to where people draw the line. I do appreciate the feedback and am curious as to other's thoughts.

Actually, maybe I'll make a poll in the Tournaments section as I won't be building this army unless it's cool to play in tournies.

i'd recommend using the actual clear flight bases instead of the terminator sized 40mm ones. while they're similar in size, you'll still encounter people that will complain that the bases are not correct when they denied or gain a charge when it shouldn't happen... and they'll be 100% correct. i'd be fine playing against the army as long as they're based correctly. that being said, i just don't think it's a cool *looking* idea. most people will simply think you're powergaming since you can use almost all the modelling ideas in your post as part of a legal blood angels army (dante, sang guard as troops).

Good points on the bases Warboss. If I move forward I might just do that to keep down any issues. I can probably decorate those just as easily as a 40mm.

As for powergaming, that made me chuckle a little. I don't know of anyone who thinks an all jetbike Eldar army is powergaming. Especially one with only one seer council and shining spears. While I could do something similar with a BA army it's the playstyle I'm attracted to. I love the winged marine models but also love the jetbike army playstyle. I was thinking of merging them.

My power army is the one I'm quasi-retiring now that I've pulled in my golden ticket so I can bring modeler/fun armies for the rest of the "season".

Hulksmash wrote:Good points on the bases Warboss. If I move forward I might just do that to keep down any issues. I can probably decorate those just as easily as a 40mm.

As for powergaming, that made me chuckle a little. I don't know of anyone who thinks an all jetbike Eldar army is powergaming. Especially one with only one seer council and shining spears. While I could do something similar with a BA army it's the playstyle I'm attracted to. I love the winged marine models but also love the jetbike army playstyle. I was thinking of merging them.

My power army is the one I'm quasi-retiring now that I've pulled in my golden ticket so I can bring modeler/fun armies for the rest of the "season".

i didn't say you *were* power gaming, just that some people will assume so. i've had people tell me my tau were broken and i field 36 firewarriors and an ethereal in almost every game! it's all about the perception. if you're using GW figs (which you are) and the same bases that normal jetbikes come on (i don't recall if that's the larger landspeeder sized ones or the smaller tau gun drone ones), people complaining don't have a RAW-leg to stand on. they might still complain fluff wise but they won't have anything written from GW to back them up.

Another good point Warboss. And for reference they come on the larger flying stand. So the model would have to be pretty dynamic to keep it from getting lost on the base.

I'm sorry to join the band wagon and jump all over what would be an impressive visual army but i don't think an eldar army could be represented by winged space marines, sorry dude its a few steps to far, i would have no problem facing a jetbike army riding something other than a jetbike but they would need to be eldar and riding something or even flying with wings

While I think you would have an impressive looking army I'm not sure if I would want to meet you on the battlefield. The problem for me would be that I would have to ask you time and again what unit represents what, even though it would be clear for you I wouldn't make heads from tail with only a short run through.

In a tournament situation this would give you a huge advantage over me and I wouldn't enjoy the match as much as I usually do.

I also have to vote against it. You are have space marines represent eldar. That is bit much as they are both very well defined groups in 40k.

Yeah, I agree with the other guys on this: you simply cannot make winged Space Marines and play them as an Eldar Jetbike list.

I also find the "everything counts as its exact opposite" concept confusing.
Better wait for new Jetbikes, or if you don't like Eldar and jetbikes, why not do Blood Angels counting as Blood Angels

I'm actually a little surprised at the modeler community here. Not that I don't understand where you guys are all coming from but that you guys are eliminating so much potential.

What's wrong with using models from the same company to represent something you don't like the look of when they have very similar stats? Is it just because they aren't Eldar that there is a problem? If I modelled dynamically winged eldar and used them as jetbikes would people have the same problem? What about that amazing Grot army that's being built in the P&M Blog area? Would you guys have the same problem in using up-armored orks to represent marines?

I ask these questions because the main complaint seems to be that I'd be using marine models to represent Eldar. I personally like the clean/heavy look of space marines. But I want a different playstyle. It's not like I'm cheaping out and want to use an existing armies worth of models to make. This would be a completely different army painted in a style different from all of my current armies. I also don't really want to use 20 year old models that are just plain ugly. Foot Eldar appeals to me cause it's pretty but Eldar Bikes are some of the worst models in the GW range.

I think it's a good idea and the last thing I would want to do is squash someone's creativity. That's what this hobby is all about, though some here seem to have forgotten that. As long as everything was clear, consistent, and WYSIWIG, I would love to face this army and salute you for taking the time to do something personal, as opposed to throwing down cash to just buy the army. There are plenty of armies I've wanted to try, but don't like the aesthetics, so I say go for it.

Hulksmash wrote:I'm actually a little surprised at the modeler community here. Not that I don't understand where you guys are all coming from but that you guys are eliminating so much potential.

What's wrong with using models from the same company to represent something you don't like the look of when they have very similar stats? Is it just because they aren't Eldar that there is a problem? If I modelled dynamically winged eldar and used them as jetbikes would people have the same problem? What about that amazing Grot army that's being built in the P&M Blog area? Would you guys have the same problem in using up-armored orks to represent marines?

I ask these questions because the main complaint seems to be that I'd be using marine models to represent Eldar. I personally like the clean/heavy look of space marines. But I want a different playstyle. It's not like I'm cheaping out and want to use an existing armies worth of models to make. This would be a completely different army painted in a style different from all of my current armies. I also don't really want to use 20 year old models that are just plain ugly. Foot Eldar appeals to me cause it's pretty but Eldar Bikes are some of the worst models in the GW range.

Well if you like the look of Marine models then play Marines. If you want to play Eldar then you'll have to go with some of the ugly models. This is mainly due to the fact that it would cause confusion amoungst the other players, due to the huge amount of count-as. Also, it may also be seen as, well kinda offensive to other players, as they may have spent months and months getting their army up to a great standard, and you use what they would see as a cheap ploy of counting an entire army as a completly different race.

If you had Blood Angels and wanted to count them as Dark Angels for example, then that would be mostly acceptable, but counting Blood Angels as Eldar is not the best of ideas.

I have to agree with valkyrie on the army being confusing to play against. I remember watching you play a game with your adeptus mechanicus daemon army, and while it was a beautiful army, it seemed very difficult to recognize what was what. Maybe its just me, but I would find it quite frustrating to not fully recognize whats about to happen to me because of confusing models... Beautiful army and concepts, dont get me wrong, I would just find it too confusing and frustrating.

@Valk

You did notice that I'm talking about an entire army from scratch right? It wouldn't be Blood Angles. It would use about 50% (max) BA parts and parts from the eldar and chaos range and painted in a unique color scheme. Why would this be offensive? It's going to be painted to my personal high standard if I do it (normally manage to score 80%+ of available paint pts). I'll have spent as much time on an army from scratch as anyone else.

@Butler

Yours is a objection I can recognize and agree with. In the tourney thread which I probably haven't mentioned here I have decided I'd do a custom army list with pictures of the units properly labeled and a checklist for the seer council for who's still alive. That way the confusion about what's what would be even more simplified.

This is something i'm gonna be doing for my daemons also since with as many different types of units as i have in that army can make it hard to remember.

if you're willing to do that much conversion work why not make a wing/jetbike equivilant from scratch and mould/cast it, i just have a problem with the concept of a mostly space marine model being used to represent eldar, I think an example model or even some artwork/drawing would help with a balanced discussion.

Hulksmash wrote:What's wrong with using models from the same company to represent something you don't like the look of when they have very similar stats?

In what way are a Space Marine and an Eldar anti-grav vehicle with turbo boost similar? It's about as different as you can get.
Maybe you should wait for the Grey Knight release that is rumoured to have something like jetbikes.

Maybe you'll surprise me with a test model, but i can't see how this would look good on the battlefield. Space marines are Space marines, if you intend to use the legs and body from different SM ranges, they'll still have that horribly bland appearance (unless you're planning some major GS work on the armour).

Besides, if someone tells me they're making a 'counts as' jetbike army, i instantly think of miniatures riding something, like exodites on cold ones, or grots on gun drones, etc... not marines with wings.

Grots on gundrones would be pretty friggin awesome actually J.Black. I might make a test model of that too! I'll just have to figure out how to make him have heavier looking armor!

Eldar jetbikes are available on either 30mm or 60mm flight bases. I've never been given the hairy eyeball for mounting mine on 40's, but I know how picky some folks can be.

When I wanted to field an Exodite army using the Space Wolf codex rules, I was given the exact same arguments. There was just as much, "but I won't know what is what..." and "it's not fluffy because eldar are weedy gits and marines are Buff McBufferstons and the stats don't reflect it" as you're getting here Hulksmash.

I don't understand what the big deal would be. I don't play dark eldar, don't know what all their rules or even models are, but that doesn't stop me from playing against a DE army even if it means asking my opponent what his army's abilities are.

I say bugger the naysayers and do it. Make a blog, post your progress, and if you're ever in the north Florida region, drop me a line and we'll play proxy eldar vs. proxy eldar.

Imagine a tournament with 30 Space Marine armies.

Hi, I am an Eldar Saim Hann Host
Hi, I am a Kroot Mercenary army.
Hi, I am a Necron force.
Hi, I am an Ork mob.
Hi, I am actually a Space Marine counting as a Space Marine. Huh????

You can bugger all naysayers, but whom will you play, if the other two have no time

Hulksmash wrote:Grots on gundrones would be pretty friggin awesome actually J.Black. I might make a test model of that too! I'll just have to figure out how to make him have heavier looking armor!

Good ideas in response to other good ideas. That's why i like this forum so much

If you do do this, i wouldn't worry about the extra armour; just put the grots in proper surfing poses and it'll all be good