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What would be the outcome and who would win if Sw and Ba got into close combat because it didn't seem right when i played a Sw player the other day and they did more damage to me in the assault then i did (he killed 3-4 marines on the turn of the assault, i killed maybe 2-3 and got the charge and had a priest!!) although fair beans i had bad rolls but even then is it correct that in cc Sw Bc and Wg do more damage then Assault marines with a priest and Dante ... the Bc against assaults with priest and Dante and his assault squad against Wg

Spesh doggies will win. Can't really explain why, they just seem more fighty. And vicious. They just seem like all around better brawlers.

AND in a primarch battle (which seems to be the way dakka settles things), Lemon Rust would snap Sanguinator in half. Sanguinator is no match for the rust.

With a power weapon priest a BA assault squad should beat most standard SW units. With the charge you go first with a power weapon (hit and wound on 3+), and get rid of a lot of the wolves, making counter attack (IF it goes off) a lot less powerful.

Now if your opponent had wolf guard with various power weapons and the like than it makes more sense that he'd win (ignoring armor and FNP, and he can get more power weapons than you).

Blood Claws will NOT win if you assault them with an assault squad. You go first, hit & wound on 3s with everyone, while your opponent (with what he has left) hits & wounds on 4s (and can't have more than 3 weapons I believe that will ignore your FNP).

A lot relies on BA getting the charge, but then a lot for SW relies on them getting counter attack off. Neither are guarenteed, but with jump packs and FNP the angles have a very good chance of getting the charge off while only losing 1 or 2 of their number on the way in.

Of course, you could always send Mephiston against anything in the wolf codex, and he should come out handily on top (except Grimnar because of the "always hits on 3s" nonsense with preferred enemy and a pfist equivalent. But even then he gets 7 attacks at most, and needs to hit & wound with 6 of those after not being killed by Mephiston).

When it comes to troops Vampires>Werewolves.
It all comes down to this FNP+FC>Counter charge.
However many wounds space puppies think they will score causing however many unsaved wounds space puppies think they well get on BA, cut that number in half because of FNP after you subtract lost attacks from a STR5 I5 FC.

When it comes to Loganwing Werewolves>Vampires
Power weapons ignore FNP, nuff said.
Cheap 33 point terminators with nothing but a power weapon or cheap 38 point termies with a combi plasma as a troops choice will rock BA.

Logan V Mephiston.....
Mephiston hits on a 3+ Wounds on a 2+ and there is a 4+ invo. Each attack has a 5/18 chance of scoring an unsaved wound. If Meph charges the average is only 1.666 wounds.
Logan on power fist mode hits on a 3+ with rerolls to hit Wounds on a 2+ and there is no invo. Each attack has a 74% chance of scoring an unsaved wound. If Logan gets off his counter attack the average is 4.4 wounds. With average rolls Logan will kill Meph on the 2nd round of combat. All of that is of course in an imaginary bubble where Logan isn't attached to a unit of wolfguard terminators, and Meph doesn't eat rapid firing combi plasmas before the CC.

You do realize Mephiston has a Force Weapon and Ld 10, so it only takes one unsaved wound and Logan does not swing back.

Also Mephiston can be Str10, so unless Logan has Eternal Warrior one wound and the is dead even without the force weapon.

jbunny wrote:.....so unless Logan has Eternal Warrior one wound and the is dead even without the force weapon.

Which he does and with 3 Wounds to boot.

But being Spess Wolfs we can just use roflJaws to one-shot old Meph.

Samus_aran115 wrote:AND in a primarch battle (which seems to be the way dakka settles things), Lemon Rust would snap Sanguinator.

the famous lemon russ and anyway sanguinator is not a primarch

As a SW player who hasn't seen a BA codex, what advantage do the wolves have? Better ranged troops? Cheaper troops?

Which he does and with 3 Wounds to boot.

But being Spess Wolfs we can just use roflJaws to one-shot old Meph.

Does he really have ew and use jaws? anyway Meph would strike first always and probably slaughter Grim in one cc. Knowing wolves against ba i can imagine meph just crawling in the fetal postion when he gets chewed up by those just so happeningly by a rune priest not to far away

Samus_aran115 wrote:Spesh doggies will win. Can't really explain why, they just seem more fighty. And vicious. They just seem like all around better brawlers.

First of my Flesh Tearers came from Saguinius, I see your space puppy "brawlers" and raze you one psycopathic group of rage filled knife murderers....

Samus_aran115 wrote:AND in a primarch battle (which seems to be the way dakka settles things), Lemon Rust would snap Sanguinator in half. Sanguinator is no match for the rust.

I didnt see Lemon Rust kill three bloodthirsters, one of which was the father of all bloodthirsters himself. AND if Magus (the nerd primarch) almost beat russ then saguinius would give him a definate run for his money.

But russ has enough issues getting his ass beat by a the queer Lion and all...

Wow lots of hate for the SW there.

Looks Infected wrote:

Which he does and with 3 Wounds to boot.

But being Spess Wolfs we can just use roflJaws to one-shot old Meph.

Does he really have ew and use jaws? anyway Meph would strike first always and probably slaughter Grim in one cc. Knowing wolves against ba i can imagine meph just crawling in the fetal postion when he gets chewed up by those just so happeningly by a rune priest not to far away

Mathhammer is cruel and without Mercy. The results are not obvious until you take a closer look at the 2 characters.

Logan V Mephiston.....
Mephiston hits on a 3+ Wounds on a 2+ and there is a 4+ invo.
2/3*5/6*1/2=5/18=27%.
Each attack has a 5/18 or 27% chance of scoring an unsaved wound.
If Meph charges the average is only 1.666 wounds.
Logan has eternal warrior so STR10 and Force weapons mean nothing.


Logan on power fist mode hits on a 3+ with rerolls to hit Wounds on a 2+ and there is no invo.
8/9*5/6=40/54=74%
Each attack has a 74% chance of scoring an unsaved wound.
If Logan gets off his counter attack the average is 4.4 wounds.

With average rolls Logan will kill Meph can't kill Logan in 1 round of combat, and scoring the 3 necessary wounds to kill Logan is very unlikely. In a sterile bubble Meph would score another 1.3 wounds on the 2nd round of combat killing Logan but the reality of a battlefield is the wolf guard terminators that Logan is sure to be attached to and thus giving them preferred enemy would score at least 0.6 wounds on Meph resulting in Meph being dead after the 1st round of combat.

The title of the thread mentions a fist fight so mathhammer has no bearing here. While Blood Angels would win in an all out war when they go nutso and all, Space Wolves would win in a wrassling match or punch up, I can see it now...

Hrothgar: "Raaarwhooo! Lets go pretty boy!"

Prancius: "Not in the face! Anywhere but the face!"

Well the Space Wolves oast the supposedly diretiest fighter in the glaxy Lukas the Trickster.
Unarmed one-on-one yeah he might win against most of the Blood Angels.

Assuming they get the charge BA are superior to SW in close combat.

G

I like how everyone is saying that if the BA got the charge they would win.
Yes we get that.
What if they didn't get the charge or decided to have a fire-fight (yes i know OP said fist fight but lets expand on that) or it was Tacs V. Grey Hunters?

BA priests and Fast vehicles are what give them an advantage. If it were just a BA tac squad vs. SW Grey hunters it would be very close.

Get some thunderwolves in there though, and things change swiftly.

purplefood wrote:I like how everyone is saying that if the BA got the charge they would win.
Yes we get that.
What if they didn't get the charge or decided to have a fire-fight (yes i know OP said fist fight but lets expand on that) or it was Tacs V. Grey Hunters?

This is about close combat. Blood Angels have mobility and Space Wolves have counter charge. Assuming two veterans square off with optimal lists then you can bet Blood Angels will get the charge. That's just how it is. We can spend lots of time discussing odd situations but in reality we should stick to best matchups. That is how to decide who is best in assault.
G

I've never played a game against SW, but Death Company with Lemartes tends to ravage many squads in CC, even more if they get the charge. I'll see your Space Viking brawlers and raise you a squad of "The Incredible Hulks with jet packs"

IMHO, if the setting of this fist-fight is a bar fight or alley brawl, i can see the Wolves winning. In a full battle or war, the Blood Angels' superior mobility and CC effectiveness would out-match the Wolves.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
AND in a primarch battle (which seems to be the way dakka settles things), Lemon Rust would snap Sanguinator in half. Sanguinator is no match for the rust.

This made me giggle. We have no way of really knowing the outcome between Russ and Sanguinius. But I give the edge to Sanguinius. Far-Seeing Eye ftw.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:

jbunny wrote:.....so unless Logan has Eternal Warrior one wound and the is dead even without the force weapon.

Which he does and with 3 Wounds to boot.

But being Spess Wolfs we can just use roflJaws to one-shot old Meph.

Yeah, if I happen to roll a 6, but it's like that for ANY model.

But Really, I wouldn't be charging into combat with Logan with Mephy. I would be charging in there with The Sanguinator.

purplefood wrote:I like how everyone is saying that if the BA got the charge they would win.
Yes we get that.
What if they didn't get the charge or decided to have a fire-fight (yes i know OP said fist fight but lets expand on that) or it was Tacs V. Grey Hunters?

Reaching for straws are we?

Yes, if we get the charge it's going to be a blood bath in favor of the Blood Angels. Especially if I charge you with Death Company + Chaplin, Lamartes, or even Astoroth. (Decked out with PWs to boot.)

Wolves would defiantly win a firefight, but FNP + FC really does trump true grit and counter charge in CC

as for mephy vs logan, are you doing that with meph rerolling to hit and to wound?

Even with his logans LD10, meph makes him take a ld test at -4 ld or else meph rerolls to hit and to wound against him ... at ld6 he will fail his ld more than half the time, and get pasted by meph.

Well it's actually an even match. BA should be able to get off the charges but SW will then follow up with counter assault units. If you can bait out the best enemy units & kill them first then you will probably end up winning.

G

Why do people assume BA get the charge? Seriously, why?

Fast rhinos get you to the front lines faster, but you still have to wait a turn before charging out. No reason GH won't be in rhinos of their own. Now its just luck of the dice to see who's rhino blows up first.

Non specialist jump packers (guys without fleet) have to play the 18" bubble game. If after initial movement they are outside of 18" they can't reach combat next turn in which case they get pelted with 24" range bolter fire, then find themselves in the next situation. If after the initial move forward they are inside 18" but outside of 12", all the puppies do is move forward 6" and then rapid fire their bolters and fire off melta. And obviously if after movement they find themselves inside 12" the wolves pull their chainswords and pistols and charge them.

In any situation the jump packers will never hit with full force, at least they know they have a reasonable chance of keeping the charge if their willing to take some gun shots to the chin first.

Same thing with DOA, you have to hang around for a turn before you can assault. I can't think of a single SW player that wouldn't charge the squad of GH into the DOA squad that just showed up next to them, taking away their FC and 1 attack.

Its really 50/50 on who charges whom without things like fleet or Cavalry movement. Hell even Landraiders and Stormravens can't get their guys going farther than 20".

Wolves bring both guns and claws to a bar fight. We may love to brawl, but we arn't stupid about it. Also don't forget our beastly brothers MOTW, those guys have 3-8 attacks with rending.

BA vs SW is a good match, but here is something to consider for HQ on HQ

I take Sanginor against Logan, after the Dante nerf stick beat down. Power Weapon, eternal warrior, 3+ invul, reroll all to hits and to wounds, Logan does way more for his army, but the Blood Angels seem built for head hunting enemy HQ's.



So in regards to original poster's question I will look at the two units without any upgrade, Tact Squad vs Grey hunters bare bones. It is dead even, unless red thirst is a factor, which tips the balance slightly to the blood angels side. Very even match, mostly based on dice rolls i think. Again, leaving the wargear and priests at home.

doubled wrote:BA vs SW is a good match, but here is something to consider for HQ on HQ

I take Sanginor against Logan, after the Dante nerf stick beat down. Power Weapon, eternal warrior, 3+ invul, reroll all to hits and to wounds, Logan does way more for his army, but the Blood Angels seem built for head hunting enemy HQ's.



So in regards to original poster's question I will look at the two units without any upgrade, Tact Squad vs Grey hunters bare bones. It is dead even, unless red thirst is a factor, which tips the balance slightly to the blood angels side. Very even match, mostly based on dice rolls i think. Again, leaving the wargear and priests at home.

How was Dante nerfed? I can't view the FAQ at the moment but I don't remember seeing anything that nerfed him.

No Dante nerfs Logan, His mask is -1 to init, Ws, Wounds, and LD i think

Dante walks around with a Nerf stick and beats on other HQ's.

doubled wrote:No Dante nerfs Logan, His mask is -1 to init, Ws, Wounds, and LD i think

Dante walks around with a Nerf stick and beats on other HQ's.

Ah I gotcha. Just a misunderstanding.

Shovan wrote:

doubled wrote:BA vs SW is a good match, but here is something to consider for HQ on HQ

I take Sanginor against Logan, after the Dante nerf stick beat down. Power Weapon, eternal warrior, 3+ invul, reroll all to hits and to wounds, Logan does way more for his army, but the Blood Angels seem built for head hunting enemy HQ's.



So in regards to original poster's question I will look at the two units without any upgrade, Tact Squad vs Grey hunters bare bones. It is dead even, unless red thirst is a factor, which tips the balance slightly to the blood angels side. Very even match, mostly based on dice rolls i think. Again, leaving the wargear and priests at home.

How was Dante nerfed? I can't view the FAQ at the moment but I don't remember seeing anything that nerfed him.

He is talking about Dantes broken ability to Nerf the opposing IC.

ack!!!! Ninja'd

Jayden63 wrote:Why do people assume BA get the charge? Seriously, why?

Fast rhinos get you to the front lines faster, but you still have to wait a turn before charging out. No reason GH won't be in rhinos of their own. Now its just luck of the dice to see who's rhino blows up first.

Non specialist jump packers (guys without fleet) have to play the 18" bubble game. If after initial movement they are outside of 18" they can't reach combat next turn in which case they get pelted with 24" range bolter fire, then find themselves in the next situation. If after the initial move forward they are inside 18" but outside of 12", all the puppies do is move forward 6" and then rapid fire their bolters and fire off melta. And obviously if after movement they find themselves inside 12" the wolves pull their chainswords and pistols and charge them.

In any situation the jump packers will never hit with full force, at least they know they have a reasonable chance of keeping the charge if their willing to take some gun shots to the chin first.

Same thing with DOA, you have to hang around for a turn before you can assault. I can't think of a single SW player that wouldn't charge the squad of GH into the DOA squad that just showed up next to them, taking away their FC and 1 attack.

Its really 50/50 on who charges whom without things like fleet or Cavalry movement. Hell even Landraiders and Stormravens can't get their guys going farther than 20".

Wolves bring both guns and claws to a bar fight. We may love to brawl, but we arn't stupid about it. Also don't forget our beastly brothers MOTW, those guys have 3-8 attacks with rending.

The reason we assume BA gets the charge is mainly the BA's Assault Squad Troops and DC, their jump packs mean their increased mobility gets them the charge. And since the OP ignores the shooting phase of this little fight, it really all seems to come down to whether the BA or the SW get the charge. When it comes down to it, jump packs would mean they'd get the charge, and FNP, FC, PW and PF, along with Lemartes or something, the BA can really pack a CC punch. However, I am not familiar with SW rules, so i am basing this on my knowledge of the BA and their effectiveness against other MEQ or CC armies.