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Hi All

Im thinking vanilla dread (points are tight) but want to replace the standard MM.

Will be for an upcoming tournament and feel I have sufficient anti infantry weaponry so needs to be effective v vehicles (at least transports)

Does that take me to TL Autocannon?

yep, it does. my TLAC + DCCW dread is awesome.

Did you keep the stormbolter or upgrade?

kept the stormbolter, nice and cheap

Have you played with plasma cannon and turned it down in favour of the TLAC?

Did you use the forgeworld Autocannon or model up from something else?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Dreadnoughts/MK-IV-DREADNOUGHT-AUTOCANNONS-RIGHT-ARM.html

I used the Lascannon arm, cut off the lascannon barrels, replaced them with guard autocannon barrels, and glued some autocannon ammo drums to the side that came with the guard heavy weapons kit.

I've played with the plasma cannon, and often actually use one of each in my lists. they have VERY different purposes though... can't really say one's better than the other, because plasma is much better vs infantry, while the autocannon is much better vs tanks.

Thanks Honer

I believe the two TL AC gives you the best anti vehicle destroying ability for a dread
Find out yourself at this simulator
http://uma-musado.com/cgi-bin/mathHammer.cgi

labmouse42 wrote:I believe the two TL AC gives you the best anti vehicle destroying ability for a dread
Find out yourself at this simulator
http://uma-musado.com/cgi-bin/mathHammer.cgi

For light vehicles yes, for Russ or Raiders you'd better pack lascannons or get in close enough to use that ccw

Brotherjulian wrote:For light vehicles yes, for Russ or Raiders you'd better pack lascannons or get in close enough to use that ccw

A twin linked LC has about a 5% chance to destroy av 14. If one is looking to pop AV 14 then MM are the weapon of choice. Now an LC would be good vs av 13.

At the end of the day though play what you like.

With most tanks being AV 11-12, autocannons just work. Cheap and effective. Against true heavy armor, Lascannons don't cut it, in fact an assault cannon has about the same chances of doing something. Taking out real armor needs melta.

So, fire support dreds should be 2 TL autocannons. Tank hunters should be MM dreds. Other configurations exist that are effective, but those too are probably the best for the points. (I personally have fun with a podded assault cannon with HF dread, but its not really mathhammer sound) Some people swear by the ML TLLC dread, but its not exactly efficient.

Thanks all
I played TL Autocannon dread today twice - eldar narrow loss (3x wraithlord, 6x viper, 2x wraithguard and prince yuriel) - the dread worked pretty ok, only wish was armour pen on that autocannon was AP3, then it would be gold.
Solid though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quick edit - second game v wolves he got nailed by Canis 'rending I5 fifty million attacks before he really got to do anything

notabot187 wrote:Some people swear by the ML TLLC dread, but its not exactly efficient.

Unless you play as Black Templars, and get a TRUE Tank Hunting dreadnought. Veteran skills FTW.

The reason that you use a TL AC dread is to crack transports at long range, or to crack light armor at long range. (think war walkers or speeders). For that purpose it's fantastic. They can also be used to make MCs make saves.

Vs Av 13 or higher or wraithlords other tools are needed. Melta is just awesome for cracking heavy armor. For wraithlords... Well that's when power fists or lascannons are great.

labmouse42 wrote:I believe the two TL AC gives you the best anti vehicle destroying ability for a dread
Find out yourself at this simulator
http://uma-musado.com/cgi-bin/mathHammer.cgi

Ran the sim ---hitting the rear armour ( I assumed drop pods for the dread ) --- the assault cannon ( 26 % destroyed )is only beaten buy the lascannon ( 33% destroyed ) , plasma cannon (20.5 %) and auto cannon (20.9 % ) were almost a dead heat ( I was quite surprised )

I would go with the assault cannon , as it is a good all rounder



OH thanks for the link ... will keep me amused for ages

darkangels_rule wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:I believe the two TL AC gives you the best anti vehicle destroying ability for a dread
Find out yourself at this simulator
http://uma-musado.com/cgi-bin/mathHammer.cgi

Ran the sim ---hitting the rear armour ( I assumed drop pods for the dread ) --- the assault cannon ( 26 % destroyed )is only beaten buy the lascannon ( 33% destroyed ) , plasma cannon (20.5 %) and auto cannon (20.9 % ) were almost a dead heat ( I was quite surprised )

I would go with the assault cannon , as it is a good all rounder



OH thanks for the link ... will keep me amused for ages

I find 2 things wrong with that mathhammer(in reference to the Plasma cannon and Autocannon)

1: How is there only a .4% discrepancy between a single blast weapon, and a twin-linked, 2 shot weapon of the same str?
I got roughly 28.97% chance to hit and destroy AV10(common rear armor) with the T-L Auto cannon at BS4: 2/3 hit, with 2/3 of the remaining 1/3 hitting(or 87.78% chance to hit per shot) then a 50% chance to penetrate(or 43.89% of shots fired pen) Then 1/3 of those shots destroy(14.48% of shots fired destroy, 2 shots equate a 28.97% chance of destroying). A Single Plasma Shot only has a 10.89%chance to destroy(that is if it were a direct fire weapon, not a blast)

2: Working out Mathhammer on a Blast weapon is extremely difficult and nearly impossible for a general vs vehicles. This is because of Scatter. Scatter is almost completely random, and Hull sizes/shapes is greatly varied. Each individual need to be worked out separately and makes far to many assumptions.

Edit: I see now what the problem is; the SimHammer fires and resolves each shot individually, therefore does not give you as accurate a description of what the individual weapons can do. Also it rolls to hit based on BS for blast weapons as if they were direct fire, and still somehow comes up with a much higher kill ratio on Plasma cannons because it seems to be programed that they act as melta.

I really like the Assault Cannon. It isn't really "long" range, but it is the range that I like my dreads to be. My second favorite is podding in dreads with multi-meltas.

I like AC/ML combo

The simulator was not set up for scatter. To build the logic I need to set up a scatter roll, and the trick Is that's it's easier to scatter off a vyper than a land raider. If shooting at a rhino, if the scatter die arrow points to the font of the tank while your target was the center of the tank, there will be a longer range it can scatter than if the dice pointed to the left or right of the tank.

As such I've left scatter weapons off for now. If you have some suggestions for building logic flow I'm all ears

As there was no plasma cannon just a plasma gun, that is what was used in the comparison. That is a rapid shot weapon so it fired twice at close range

The assault cannon for podnaughts is indeed very effective. My podnaught is often an assault cannon and heavy flamer. Its good at anti infantry and anti light armor.

For long rang fire support, the double autocannon is often better because it can stay out range of most of the enemy army. (in this way it is like a predator) I've seen a few lists that actually run 3 rifleman dreds (2 TL auto cannons, looks like a battle tech mech with the same name), with 3 dakka preds (AC/HB). Its a good setup since it takes out light transports, and has high enough volume to take out infantry at range (which a MM/storm bolter dred has to assault).

labmouse42 wrote:The simulator was not set up for scatter. To build the logic I need to set up a scatter roll, and the trick Is that's it's easier to scatter off a vyper than a land raider. If shooting at a rhino, if the scatter die arrow points to the font of the tank while your target was the center of the tank, there will be a longer range it can scatter than if the dice pointed to the left or right of the tank.

As such I've left scatter weapons off for now. If you have some suggestions for building logic flow I'm all ears

As there was no plasma cannon just a plasma gun, that is what was used in the comparison. That is a rapid shot weapon so it fired twice at close range

For most vehicles (other than rather small vehicles like Speeders, Vypers, and Piranha) You can safely assume that any Scatter of 1 inch will remain on the vehicle. The Base Percentage to hit a vehicle with a blast is going to be 33.3333% (1/3) of the remaining 66.6666%(2/3) any roll of the BS +1 of the firer is going to still "hit" at full Str and against the named AV.

Now in the case of a Marine, or Marine vehicle you effectively get the 2 "Hit" results plus any scatter result of 5 inches or lower. This requires at little bit of Matix use to gather the exact percentage of hitting. A Marine with BS 4 will hit naturally ~33% of the time + the added values of 1/36+2/36+3/36+4/36 or 10/36, simplified to 5/18, or converted to 27.7777%, multiplied by 66.6666%(the remaining 2/3 chance to scatter) for a total of 18.5185% chance to not scatter "off" the vehicle. You then Add the chance to hit with the Chance to Not scatter to far for a grand total of 51.8518% chance to "hit" the target vehicle with the Blast(or at least the portion of the blast that matters)

So A Plasma cannon has a roughly 8.642% chance to destroy an AV10 Vehicle (51.8518% chance to hit * 50% chance to penetrate * 33.3333% chance to destroy or explode the vehicle)

This tells us that the Auto cannon has a Markedly better chance to destroy the vehicle what with the 2 direct fire shots and twin-linkednes.

Now the Assault Cannon has a 29.6296% chance to destroy an AV 10 Vehicle. That is 4, 2/3 chance to hit, with 1/3 chance to penetrate, then 1/3 chance to destroy or explode.

2x TL-AC gives you excellent suppression fire against those middle range AV values (consistently getting 3-4 S7 hits generally means the vehicle isn't shooting at a minimum) and is very capable of popping tanks at the lower AV spectrum. Whilst it doesn't have the popping power against AV 13/14, as others have pointed out the SM army is generally filled to the brim with melta weapns which are capable of dealing with the hger AV ranges.

OK here is what im going with in two games tomorrow

Ironclad in my sole drop pod is coming down with Hvy FLamer and Melta - realise they fulfil different roles but I see his role really as threatening and drawing fire or tying up large mobs/brood for 3+ turns while rest of my army dismantles the rest

Other dread is general purpose TL Autocannon/Storm Bolter with DCCW - good for counterattack for things like orc commandos/puppez scouts (if he does not cop plasma/melta to the butt from them) - at 115 points he is points well spent IMHO

Playing a local notorius for 6-8 oblits, 2DPs so a good test for them

That pod Ironclad hopefully will survive those incoming MM shots to charge them..

The obits are about the only serious thing in that list, so I think you should do fine if you take them out. I'm assuming he is using the DP for lash, so being meched up is the best thing. (and also a good idea to bring a hood) If its a pair of warp time DP with wings, those are dangerous to mech, and are terminate with prejudice targets.

I really like podding dreads. I think I am gonna get three pods going, personally. I am gonna use one ironclad like you have above. and in the other I am gonna use the standard Melta dread with ccw. That way I can drop them behind a transport, crack it with melta from my Melta dread, then use the ironclad to flame the contents. If the melta dread doesn't get the job done, then I can use the meltagun on the ironclad to try and take out the transport. Either way, the dreads are there to support one another so they are not just suicide runs.

the 2x TL/AC is probably the most effective way of putting autocannons down in the entire game.

That said, shooty dreads always seemed like a waste to me. DCCWs are SO awesome against vehicles and big scary things that can still be instakilled by S10. front armor of 13 also makes it really tough to take down in close combat, and it's so, so very cheap.

You have lots of options for piddling away a few heavy weapon shots here and there (some of which are scoring), but there really is no other way to get all of the awesomesauce of DCCWs without dreads with DCCWs.

labmouse42 wrote:The simulator was not set up for scatter. To build the logic I need to set up a scatter roll, and the trick Is that's it's easier to scatter off a vyper than a land raider. If shooting at a rhino, if the scatter die arrow points to the font of the tank while your target was the center of the tank, there will be a longer range it can scatter than if the dice pointed to the left or right of the tank.

As such I've left scatter weapons off for now. If you have some suggestions for building logic flow I'm all ears

As there was no plasma cannon just a plasma gun, that is what was used in the comparison. That is a rapid shot weapon so it fired twice at close range

I believe somebody on YTTH (sorry to invoke that here) made a spreadsheet calculating accuracy on blast weapons with trig to handle the scatter. May be worth your while.

The Grog wrote:

I believe somebody on YTTH (sorry to invoke that here) made a spreadsheet calculating accuracy on blast weapons with trig to handle the scatter. May be worth your while.

I recall seeing some math when 40k came out that the best spot for blast weapons is on the corner of most chassis as you have more room to scatter in a 90 degree arc. No idea where that was from though...

but blast weapons don't scatter the same way as they did long ago. Now it's much more common for blast weapons to do things like scattering 2", which still allows them to be placed on the hull of a vehicle regardless of the direction it scatters, rather than if it scatters in only a 90-degree arc.

Woops meant 5th, not 40k lol.