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i recently downloaded the demonhunters codex of the games-workshop website and found that although it mentions the allies rule on the first few pages it doesn't actualy explain it. can anyone who knows this rule explain it to me (or tell me what page it is on in the 'dex cus i may have just missed it). it would be a great help, thanks

Only the previous printed edition contains the rules for Allies. GW omitted them from the PDF's I would ask someone who plays Daemon Hunters at your local club or store if you can take a look at the physical book.

There's plenty of threads already about this can of worms.

My paper 'dex has the rules on P.21, while the "by the authority of the imortal emperour of mankind" rules are fully explained on P.21 and P.30/31

The PDf does not have any rules for allies; this is deliberate as these rules arelikely to be removed when Grey Knights is released.

So if you want to use allies, buy the paper version. If you are just starting out, however, I would not do this unless you are building a general IG army as well, so you dont waste too much money.

There was a statement made that the omission of allies was an error. On the other hand they haven't fixed it.

If you're starting out with this army it's not a good time - it may change radically in the very near future.

Scott-S6 wrote:There was a statement made that the omission of allies was an error. On the other hand they haven't fixed it.

If you're starting out with this army it's not a good time - it may change radically in the very near future.

it was no error. they took them out simply because they didn't want them in there. it's only an error in melissia's imagination.

"Firstly, the rules for allied Space Marines and Inducted Imperial Guard were originally written to reference books that have since gone out of print, so we streamlined the rules required to allow players to collect an army of Daemonhunters or Witch Hunters."

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=11200008a

Yeah, sure, in spite of GW sayying oops, we goofed, it's all in Mel's imagination. Sorry warboss, but you are incorrect. Or is the exclusion of the rules telling us what constitutes a Grey Knight and therefor also gets to use the GK special rules also intentional? However, they're also not going to fix it in the pdfs.

OP, find/buy a used copy of the codex. GW has stated the allies rules are still viable and can be used.

Don; Warboss provided a quote from GW(it is on their main website hidden in one of the daily articles) They never said Oops, we goofed. they said we intentionally left out those rules because the codexes they reference no longer exist.

Here is the full quote from Wednesday June 30th: We recently made the Witch Hunters and Daemonhunters codexes available to download as PDFs. Since then, we've received a spate of emails asking questions about the difference between the PDFs and the original, printed copies. Rather than reply to you all individually, I thought I'd try to answer your questions here. Firstly, the rules for allied Space Marines and Inducted Imperial Guard were originally written to reference books that have since gone out of print, so we streamlined the rules required to allow players to collect an army of Daemonhunters or Witch Hunters. The Daemonhunters army list uses the Standard Force Organisation chart, which you'll find on page 87 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. The other point that seems to be causing the most confusion is whether or not the PDF versions supersede the printed versions. They don't: you should feel free to continue to use whatever resources you have available to play your games with; the PDF does not overrule or invalidate the printed Codex book. Yes, this may mean that you and your opponent are using what are essentially different army lists for the same army but not every Inquisition force will comprise of the same elements (highly specialised and secretive forces that they are). And if you'd rather use the same one as your opponent, why not simply decide which version you collectively want to use and share the rules between one another? As for tournaments and gaming events, it's entirely up to the organisers to decide which version to use; it is after all their event. Now that we've cleared that up, you can get on with downloading the Blood Angel FAQ and Tyranid FAQ.

Don - the rules ARE in the book, just not on page 10....

All those interested should read the GW statement again. It was important enough for them to place it as a comment on their web site.

You can continue to play with allies. Tournament organizers will make up their own mind on what to allow.

And -- oh yeah -- both the ally rules and HQ retinues are going away whenever new codices are produced for DH and WH.

My own rule of thumb is that primary DH and WH can use allies (WH still has those rules in the online codex but they're out of date). I mercilessly ridicule other IG or SM players who still take Inquisitorial allies as that's a big helping of weaksauce. Then I beat the hell out of the IG/Mystic gunline or the SM force too soft to run their own librarians.

don_mondo wrote:Yeah, sure, in spite of GW sayying oops, we goofed, it's all in Mel's imagination.

Where did they say that they goofed? Because the statement on the GW website says otherwise.

Or is the exclusion of the rules telling us what constitutes a Grey Knight and therefor also gets to use the GK special rules also intentional? However, they're also not going to fix it in the pdfs.

'Grey Knights' are any models with the 'Grey Knight' special rule in their profile. While it would be nice for the sake of clarity to have the separate statement pointing that out, it's not really necessary.

As a TO I will not allow the use of allies since it is clear GW is going in a different direction now and soon enough they will be a thing of the past. To me it is unfortunate people can still use allies as GW seems to have caved in to the complaints from a vocal minority. That is how I see it.

G

I hope they do not get rid of allies as it was a nice fun touch to the game, fluff wise it worked as well

Waiter! Waiter! I said medium well, not well done. Who would want their thread topics grey, over-done, and tasteless? I demand you take this back.

And in a more serious sense... how did this get to 12 replies with two mods chiming in? I thought we had four locked topics on this already.

Can a mod make this a sticky topic in YMDC? I really think this might warrant it. This is the second time I've seen this question in the last week, and I've been away from a computer camping for three of those days..

thanks for the help guys

Remember that in a tourney it is the discretion of the TO. Not everyone is a huge fan of IG with their mystics.

G

lethlis wrote:I hope they do not get rid of allies as it was a nice fun touch to the game, fluff wise it worked as well

I'd love to argue that taking a bunch of mystics and a Brother Captain for a psychic hood has absolutely zero fluff but that's not really what this topic is about...

As has been stated: the omission of Grey Knight allies seems to be on purpose.

IMO Grey Knights should not be allowed to take allies anymore, regardless of owning the paper version. The PDF is there to be the rules for Grey Knights. I handled the BA PDF the same way. Of course that's also because their codex at the time was so old it referred to the Space Marine codex for most of it's rules...

I really wish that GK could be incorporated into other armies as allies because the book was competitive, not because there is a cheap psychic hood listed and because mystics are amazing.

Black Blow Fly wrote:As a TO I will not allow the use of allies since it is clear GW is going in a different direction now and soon enough they will be a thing of the past. To me it is unfortunate people can still use allies as GW seems to have caved in to the complaints from a vocal minority. That is how I see it.

G

As a player I will use my option of not going to your horrible, opinion-ruling filled tournament.

Ph34r; all tourneys are horribly opinion filled.

First major tourney I went to I was Allowed to field 7 Wood-block Chimeras (rough shape and dimensions, weapons were not modeled on them, but all were kitted Identically), but then when it came down to a rules argument, even though the rule was clearly written in the brb and in my favor the TO ruled in favor of my opponent. I lost 3rd place by that one ruling.

Note Ruling was that his seer counsel started the Dawn of war mission in a troops Wave Serpent, and then later his troop entered play in the HQ serpent. The TO allowed this even though it is strictly forbidden.

Black Blow Fly wrote:Remember that in a tourney it is the discretion of the TO. Not everyone is a huge fan of IG with their mystics.

G

But aren't TOs not supposed to show bias when making rulings, which you've clearly done here?

It really seems like all you're going to do here is force people to vote with their wallets and not attend your events.

TOs are able to do whatever they want, it is then your choice whether you turn up or not.

BBF has a massive hatred of allies, so wont allow them in their Tournie. If I ever had the chance to go I wouldnt as I dont like such blatant unilateral "comping" - same as I wouldnt go if the TO stated they didnt like and wouldnt allow Pink marines, or lash princes, or Orks with deff rollers, etc.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Ph34r; all tourneys are horribly opinion filled.

I'd like to think not. There are many great tournaments out there where TOs make calls based on outside FAQs and other such impersonal solutions. GBF is just adding his tournament to the list of bad tournaments, that doesn't mean that there aren't good tournaments.

There are plenty of players that share my opinion in regards to allies. Many other TOs in my area are now faced with making the decision whether or not to allow allies. Most people that want to use allies are IG players that use the Inquisitor & Mystics. Honestly - you rarely ever see any Daemonhunter armies & the ones I do see are typically pure Grey Knights.

There is going to be problems if as a TO you say that a player with the printed codex can field allies but newer players who only have access to the PDFs can't. If you let them both use allies then those with only a PDF may not have access to the rules for allies. There are all kinds of potential problems and a good solution is to just forbid allies. I think there will be a solid percentage of TOs who decide not to allow them. They might run one tourney allowing them then decide afterwards it's not worth the headache.

It would have been nice if GW could have fixed problems with these codices, such as all the issues with old 3rd wargear such as stormshields, smoke launchers, Power of the Machine Spirit, force weapons, etc. but it didn't happen. What I have been told is that new codices for the Ordos won't be released anytime soon. Dark elder are next then probably Necrons. If so the problems presented with GW's temporary solution for allies is going to be around for at least another year, probably longer. In my opinion IG are strong enough alone that they don't need any allies to remain in the top tier. Eliminating the use of allies eliminates these problems and will help to facilitate for smoother tournaments. As I have noted within my local area the only people I see who want to still use allies are IG players that want to keep using their Inquisitor/Mystic units.

G

Well, It doesnt creat any "issues", having printed copies able to ally, and pdfs not, thats even what gw says to do. The only issue would be people who dont want to go to ebay crying, and who cares about those bums?

Also, the older edition wargear is not a problem either, excepting things like black templars assault ramps on land raider, says to see an entry oin the rule book that no longer exists, things like that need fixing yes. Smokes turning pens to glances and the like no not really, not everything needs to be a homogenized one type of everything army.

Black Blow Fly wrote:There is going to be problems if as a TO you say that a player with the printed codex can field allies but newer players who only have access to the PDFs can't.

It creates no problems at all to simply tell players that they have to have the relevant rules for their army.

So if you allow the PDF in your tournament, and a player uses it, he can't use allies as he doesn't have the rules for them.


It's no different to tournaments allowing Imperial Armour units and requiring players to have the relevant IA rule sin order to field them. You field what you have the rules for.

BBF - simply publish in your rules pack that , if you want to use allies you MUST have the printed codex.

There, your "headache" is 100% resolved.

That's the ideal but is that what will actually occur in practice? I don't think so. I've played in 100s of tournaments... Invariably there is always someone who wants to do something they shouldn't. Some TOs are strict and put there foot down but there are also the TOs that for whatever reason try to accommodate everyone. The PDFs have only recently been released. I think after some tournaments have been played we are bound to see some griping. It's human nature afterall.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote: I think after some tournaments have been played we are bound to see some griping. It's human nature afterall.

That doesn't make it an actual problem.

How closely TO's enforce their own rules is of course up to them. But if a TO chooses to not enforce a rule requiring a player to have the rules for his army, that's not a problem with the rules, it's a problem with the TO not enforcing them.

Black Blow Fly wrote:There are plenty of players that share my opinion in regards to allies.

Except you aren't a player. you're a TO. Your opinions don't allow you to bend the rules just because you don't like how they work.