Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Working on beastmen chariot bound characters and got to thinking do you think chariots are better now in 8th?

Also as an aside... will razorgors get stomp, and therefore will the razorgor pulling a chariot get stomp?

I to use a Beastmen army: chariots are much better in 8th but they still have some problems.

Lets start with whats wrong with chariots. We've no units to join so will always be picked out by shooting: this can be limited by screening units but is always a threat. You'll also always get struck in close combat since you remove from the back.

Now the good, we no longer have to worry about strength 7+ attacks. This means that we can take a cannon ball to the face: D3 wounds will still hurt but it draws fire away from other units.

I personally can see only two (and half) set up that really work well:-
The Combat Lord, fully kitted out lord with possibly, brass cleaver, slug skin and ramhorn helm
The Shaman, Level 2. Not built for combat but a way to keep the shaman safe as he cast on to the units charging the enemy.
The bolt thrower, Any one with the hunting spear: good to get to the side of an enemy unit.

Razorgos will get stomp but all Chariots stop the stomp attack: "harnesses get in the way".

Tri wrote:I to use a Beastmen army: chariots are much better in 8th but they still have some problems.

Lets start with whats wrong with chariots. We've no units to join so will always be picked out by shooting: this can be limited by screening units but is always a threat. You'll also always get struck in close combat since you remove from the back.

Now the good, we no longer have to worry about strength 7+ attacks. This means that we can take a cannon ball to the face: D3 wounds will still hurt but it draws fire away from other units.

I personally can see only two (and half) set up that really work well:-
The Combat Lord, fully kitted out lord with possibly, brass cleaver, slug skin and ramhorn helm
The Shaman, Level 2. Not built for combat but a way to keep the shaman safe as he cast on to the units charging the enemy.
The bolt thrower, Any one with the hunting spear: good to get to the side of an enemy unit.

Razorgos will get stop but all Chariots stop the stop attack: "harnesses get in the way".

Chariots got better in the fact that they cant be auto gibbed, they got worse in about every other way.

They no longer break ranks.
If the solo charge or combine charge a unit that unit will most likely be stubborn.
True LoS will let you see it, even with screening.

ShivanAngel wrote:
If the solo charge or combine charge a unit that unit will most likely be stubborn.

I see this has a huge draw back to chariots in 8th. Without a large supporting infantry unit to prevent stubborn, chariots are going to get sucked into lengthy combats and beaten down.

RanTheCid wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:
If the solo charge or combine charge a unit that unit will most likely be stubborn.

I see this has a huge draw back to chariots in 8th. Without a large supporting infantry unit to prevent stubborn, chariots are going to get sucked into lengthy combats and beaten down.

Theres a good chance without impact hits they will lose the next combat just through SCR, most chariots get like 4-5 normal rank and file attacks. The things that made them so deadly were impact hits.

They seem to be excellent big block supporters, but waves of core chariots with no ranked up infantry around are just not going to do much.

All cannons deal d6 wounds now... so, they inda still can be insta-killed. Just not by a guy holding a great weapon.

One other x-factor is that if you haven't played a game of 8th yet, you need to understand that the terrain density is insane. It doesn't really slow down anyone, but chariots can just explode when they take dangerous terrain tests. A couple chariots are awesome, but if your army is chariots, then a few forests in the middle of hte table are going to make for some exploding frustration.

Chariots have their downsides but they are great in the fact that they arent to expensive and provide decently fast support wherever it is needed. Charge a ranked unit into an enemy ranked unit and send in the chariot support. The extra kills will help towards breaking their ranks below yours.

The biggest downside is that if your ranked unit misses the charge the chariot probably wont and will be stuck alone. Chariots will almost always win the first round but unless its a razorgor chariot or high elf lion chariot your in a lot of trouble the second round.

I have heard a rumor that if you put a character in a chariot, all you do is add a chariot characteristic to his abilities (for impact hits) he gets a litte better save, and then adds wounds to his profile.

Meaning that HE chariots become T3 when a char is in it.

True?

Ragnar4 wrote:I have heard a rumor that if you put a character in a chariot, all you do is add a chariot characteristic to his abilities (for impact hits) he gets a litte better save, and then adds wounds to his profile.

Meaning that HE chariots become T3 when a char is in it.

True?

No. Thought that to when i first read the rules but if you look over the page (for end of Monstrus mounts) you see that he can be single out as normal.

Chars ride chariots the same as they ride dragons.
they only merge with lower creatures such as high elves riding eagles.

Can anybody confirm whether chariots add +2 armor save in close combat this time around? or is it simply one (as in, chariot = dragon)

its only +1 to armor save

Beast lord with brass cleaver, ramhorn helm, the Armour piercing mutation, scaly skin mutation, razorgor chariot, heavy armour shield

Charge in against 20mm base infantry...

d6 St5 impact hits
4 I5 St5 attacks from the beastlord -3 AS
5 I5 brass cleaver hits at St5 and -3AS
4 razorgor attacks
1 ungor attack
Then anyone attacks the lord and he makes the save- they get a St5 hit as well!

Is there no way for a chariot to disengage from combat? That would make chariots a little bit more useful.

Lets say, for example, that you multi-charge a unit with a block of infantry and a chariot. On your next turn you disengage from combat so that you may make another charge the following turn.

Infreak wrote:Is there no way for a chariot to disengage from combat? That would make chariots a little bit more useful.

Lets say, for example, that you multi-charge a unit with a block of infantry and a chariot. On your next turn you disengage from combat so that you may make another charge the following turn.

There are like 4 units in the game that can do this, and chariots arent one of them.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Beast lord with brass cleaver, ramhorn helm, the Armour piercing mutation, scaly skin mutation, razorgor chariot, heavy armour shield

Nooo has to have slug skin. models in base contact take a strength 3 hit before combat.
BeastLord + Slug skin + Gnarled hide + uncanny senses + Brass cleaver + ramshorn helm + H.armour + shield + R.chariot.

Before combat slug skin give, 5 strength 3 hits ...
at I6 Beastlords 4 attacks +5 for the brass cleaver ... so 9 str5 attacks before most people without ASF
I3 one gor attack at strength 4
I2 4 attacks from the razorgor at strength 6.
"Then anyone attacks the lord and he makes the save- they get a St5 hit as well!"Waaagh_Gonads
all for 399pts

Fun fact for the moment GW has badly written the rules for the gifts of chaos. It reads "the model has" which would mean that the gor and razorgor would strike at I+1 as well and the chariot would have a 2+ save (4+ and 5+ scaly)

Thats an incredibly loose RoI, and if your tried to pull that in a tourny i bet you would 1) be told you couldnt by the TO, 2) get hit for sports.

ShivanAngel wrote:Thats an incredibly loose RAI, and if your tried to pull that in a tourny i bet you would 1) be told you couldnt by the TO, 2) get hit for sports.

Agreed however doesn't change the fact the model is the model; just has more then one statline. Also if you don't read it that way slug skin and brass cleaver don't work on a chariot ether.

The brass cleaver does work, because in the rule book it does say you use the mounts (in this case the chariots) frontage to determine models in base contact for what you can attack and what can attack you.

ShivanAngel wrote:The brass cleaver does work, because in the rule book it does say you use the mounts (in this case the chariots) frontage to determine models in base contact for what you can attack and what can attack you.

Since i don't have the 8th edition I'm going to assume you quoting from that as i cannot find that rule in the old BRB ( Though it doesn't works: a chariot can easily be surrounded on all sides.)

Well i'll be GW managed to spot the "the model" fault with the FAQ.

Even better a Shaman on a chariot with the skin of man can scout ... this will prove intresing.

Tri wrote:Well i'll be GW managed to spot the "the model" fault with the FAQ.

Even better a Shaman on a chariot with the skin of man can scout ... this will prove intresing.

interesting yes, effective... doubt it.

Be hard to get a model with that base size completely out of LoS for one.

Second you are wasting the chariots impact hits since you dont want it in combat, that bray shaman will be focused and torn apart. Same reason i dont like getting my screaming bell into combat.

Have you seen the Lore of the beasts? signature spell ... wildform +1S +1T on both the wizard and the chariot (only 9 to cast since we're beastmen a level 2 with 2 dice 50% odds) or you could use savage beast and get +3 attacks at +3 strength (on the wizard)...

Or you can be cunning and use the Lore of shadow and swap with a combat chariot (cast any spell and you can swap place with a character of the same type). Heck cast fly and you could have a hero on a chariot all the way across the board turn 1.

Still like every thing it requires testing. I think you'll find chariots have or at least can a place in your army.

The fly you are talking about i think is called steed of shadows, and it only works on a normal infantry sized character. So no flying chariots.

Unless i misread it and it has changed that much.

rulebook here begs to differ ...

Steed of shadow Cast on 5+
A coal-black, insubstantial drake materialises to carry a hero away on wings of night.

Steed of shadow is an augment spell that can be cast on the Wizard or a friendly character within 12". The target immediately makes a move using the Fly special rule as if it were the Remaining Move sub-phase.

... Nothing any more about on foot or normal infantry sized charcter: Look out for the flying doombulls and pray thats just rain

Wait one moment here. Are you guys saying that in 8th ed. Chariots no longer get impact hits?
I hope im reading your posts wrong cause I started building my Chaos army back in 6th ed. and i had an awesome list. I used 4-6 Chariots in an average game to make my Knights hit that much harder, and hunt small units. Then they redid Chaos and nerfed that by making them Special choices instead of Core. Which really pissed me off. Then they made it so i cant have mortal blocks and beast skirmishers with daemon support cause they are all separate armies now. Again I got pissed about that too. Yeah Chaos has Archeon but i never used him.
What exactly would be the point in me continuing to use Chariots at all now? Am i missing something?

Chariots still get their impact hits

With them being very weak unsupported in combat however it did get me thinking of tomb kings. Perhaps their light chariots will have special hit and run type rules as someone mentioned earlier that would greatly increase effectiveness. Something like charge, do the combat, stuck in enemy phase free to move out following phase, a charge can be declared against another enemy unit if they are in range. Sticks with them having more mobilty but perhaps overpowered in some ways?

Vermillion wrote:Chariots still get their impact hits

With them being very weak unsupported in combat however it did get me thinking of tomb kings. Perhaps their light chariots will have special hit and run type rules as someone mentioned earlier that would greatly increase effectiveness. Something like charge, do the combat, stuck in enemy phase free to move out following phase, a charge can be declared against another enemy unit if they are in range. Sticks with them having more mobilty but perhaps overpowered in some ways?

Whew thats a relief. man I really need to buy some new codex, I dont have any up to date ones anymore. i am almost afraid to look at the Chaos ones, I was pretty upset about the over view in WD about splitting the armies up. Still I should see what they did, and see if my beasts are more viable on their own now. I love those models.
But yeah I got 8 Chariots, 5 mortal, 3 tuskgor.