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hey guys, came across an interesting situation today.

a guy had moved his LR GH 6", so fired 2 weapons with POTMS. as such, he rolled 4 dice at the time. when I queried he said that it 'saves time' on the TL rule.

I'm just a little confused.... I thought it was specifically a re-roll. you're more likely to get better results with more dice. (usually, anyway when you hit at BS4...) I'm just a little confused, why would you ever roll two dice for the TL rule.

how does it save time?

Will I start talking like that fish news reporter on spongebob square pants when I ask more then 2 questions? (sorry, baby sitting. I've been listening to DIYIYIYAYAYAYAYA YA. SILLY SQUIDWARD ALL AFTERNOON.)

Rolling a set of two dice and choosing the one that meets the threshold is faster than rolling and then rolling again if the first roll didn't meet the threshold. If you're going to roll more than one set of dice then you'll need to be able to easily distinguish each set; rolling four dice and simply choosing two that hit seriously skews the odds.

Well that is against the rules. Your suppose to roll to hit, if you fail, THEN you re roll for the TL weapon. So your friend cheated. Saving time or not thats not how its played

If you were firing 2 twin linked weapons (hence 4 dice) the outcome would be the same as long as he rolled 2 for weapon A and 2 for weapon B. Otherwise he could have rolled 2 "hits on A and 2 misses on B but called the 2 hits the rerolls for the 2 misses.

Either way he is technically incorrect as it should be a reroll but the effect isnt changed if he keeps each weapons roll(s) seperate.

well, first off, you sound like a crazy person.

but yea, to parrot what others have said, rolling for BOTH godhammers at the same time with 4 dice is WRONG.

on the other had, its acceptable (and i've done it myself at times) to roll 2 dice at once to fire a SINGLE twin linked weapon.

He should have rolled two dice per weapon if he was doing that, not 4 dice at once. Otherwise it really isn't a big deal and does save time.

I guess Nurglitch's way would work out in all honesty. Make sure the rerolls are different colored dice, same with different weapons. Even if its 2 TL hbolters, make sure that one set is a different color then the other set, same with the TL rolls

If you can distinguish between the two sets of two dice, why not roll four dice at once? Surely you've rolled all the hit dice in a squad a once and differentiated the different weapons using different colours? Same difference when rolling for multiple Twin-Linked weapons.

Honersstodnt wrote:well, first off, you sound like a crazy person.

but yea, to parrot what others have said, rolling for BOTH godhammers at the same time with 4 dice is WRONG.

on the other had, its acceptable (and i've done it myself at times) to roll 2 dice at once to fire a SINGLE twin linked weapon.

Yea that works also. The problem comes in when your just rolling a bunch of dice for multiple weapons. Then he could just say oh yea they all hit.


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Nurglitch wrote:If you can distinguish between the two sets of two dice, why not roll four dice at once? Surely you've rolled all the hit dice in a squad a once and differentiated the different weapons using different colours? Same difference when rolling for multiple Twin-Linked weapons.

Well yea thats what I was getting at. Dont think it came across too well
As long as you can clearly tell what dice roll is for what then it really isnt a problem, but again, just rolling a bunch of white dice and saying they all hit is cheating.

Rolling two dice for one twin-linked weapon is not a problem. In your scenario if he rolled a 3+ with either die, then the shot hits.

Rolling 4 dice for both twin-linked weapons however is not allowable. As he could roll a 4, 4, 2, 2. Both 4's could mean that each weapon went off and required using their re-roll. Or it could mean that a 4 was rolled twice for the same weapon and a 2 was rolled twice for the other weapon.

In all reality, its easier just to roll shots all separately, and re-roll as normal.

note that this is also why you need to roll all weapons that have "gets hot" separately from each other.

if you have 2 marines rapid firing, and you roll all 4 shots together, and get 2 1's and 2 3's, you need to know if both wounds were on the same marine... because gets hot can only cause 1 wound per firer. I've seen people make this mistake when shooting at me. I don't correct it, because its not my responsibility to make sure they don't give me an advantage.

honer... I usually use different colours for plasma guns and pistols

but, I see what you mean, granted this rarely happens to me. (never actually had more then one plasma gun in a squad.)

To be completely fair you wouldn't need colored dice for the re-roll portions of a TL weapon. You would need a different colored pair of dice for each twin linked weapon you were firing at the same time. This is so that you know which dice pair up with which. This is to avoid a situation where you roll for 3 weapons and say you got 2 hits now you have 3 dice to choose from when determining whether the 3rd shot hit as well. Matching up the pairs avoids this so you can clearly see that TL lascannon red pair has a single hit, TL Lascannon blue pair were both misses, etc.

Of course, if you just roll one die for all weapons then reroll the misses its probably faster than trying to get colored pairs of die for each weapon. Sometimes attempts to speed up the game do the exact opposite

Rolling stuff in batches is completely fine to save time - but use different colour die! or die with different pips or something to distinguish one gun's die from the other.

Ok to add to this already long post.

Where is the limit?

Can I roll 6 dice for TLHB?
Can I roll 8 dice for TLAC?

I'd say 2 dice is the max and they have to be the same number.

So for example two TLLC from a LR.

2 Green Dice
2 Red Dice

I also prefer people to roll seperatly for infantry models also.

4 Rapid Fire shots from Plasma Guns needs to be rolled in sets of 2. Not 4 dice and then armour saves for the 1's.

Elitest Jerk wrote:Where is the limit?

Can I roll 6 dice for TLHB?
Can I roll 8 dice for TLAC?

No.

Look at this, normally, you roll this.

4, 4, 2, 1...

Followed by 2, and 1 for the re-rolls

With 8 dice you roll this

4, 5, 4 ,6, 1, 2, 1, 2

Netting you more hits.

So, easiest and fastest way, roll, re-roll misses.

Did you seriously just make up results of random dice rolls and use them as support of an argument?

The only case that rolling 2 sets of dice simultaneously is okay is when there is a single shot TL weapon. That is because only 1 miss is possible, so in the event of a miss you will always be rerolling a single dice.

Multishot weapons you do not know how many rerolls you will get, and therefore you do not have sufficient information to do the roll and reroll at the same time.

Dracos wrote:Did you seriously just make up results of random dice rolls and use them as support of an argument?

The only case that rolling 2 sets of dice simultaneously is okay is when there is a single shot TL weapon. That is because only 1 miss is possible, so in the event of a miss you will always be rerolling a single dice.

Multishot weapons you do not know how many rerolls you will get, and therefore you do not have sufficient information to do the roll and reroll at the same time.

Do you want to roll them, fifteen times for a even experiment, and give the results to dakka?

I'll give you a hint:

It works out like that. Random numbers come off dice, since y'know, unless you cheat, the numbers are random.

The problem is that your example does not communicate the point very well. The reason you are getting better odds is because you are rerolling potential HITS and MISSES. I explained it in the quoted text.

Dracos wrote:The problem is that your example does not communicate the point very well. The reason you are getting better odds is because you are rerolling potential HITS and MISSES. I explained it in the quoted text.

It communicates it perfectly... almost, the 1, 2, 1, 2 is supposed to be 2, 1, 1, 2...

X, X, X, X
X, Y, X, Y, X, Y, X, Y

X=Original Rolls
Y=Re-rolls

the guy should have been rolling separately. too many times, I have seen people at Ard Boys get screwed because some "clever" guy decided to have the most complex system for rolling their dice, leaving everyone involved as clueless as possible, while scoring ridiculous numbers of hits.

Simple solution: when scoring a hit from a unit, slide those dice aside. If there are re-rolls to be made, use the dice that missed. Only use the number of dice as your model/unit has for attacks or shots. Mainly, keep things as transparent an visible as possible.

Elitest Jerk wrote:
So for example two TLLC from a LR.

2 Green Dice
2 Red Dice

It only works for single shots.
Once you have multi, you need to keep track of which reroll belongs to which initial roll.

Picture this case:
The green dice roll one hit and one miss, the red dice roll one hit and one miss. How many hits have you scored?
How can you tell me whether the red hit 'belongs' to the green miss, for all we know the red hit could belong to the green hit.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Dracos wrote:Did you seriously just make up results of random dice rolls and use them as support of an argument?

The only case that rolling 2 sets of dice simultaneously is okay is when there is a single shot TL weapon. That is because only 1 miss is possible, so in the event of a miss you will always be rerolling a single dice.

Multishot weapons you do not know how many rerolls you will get, and therefore you do not have sufficient information to do the roll and reroll at the same time.

Do you want to roll them, fifteen times for a even experiment, and give the results to dakka?

I'll give you a hint:

It works out like that. Random numbers come off dice, since y'know, unless you cheat, the numbers are random.

Lol, i like this guy

and not because i like him, but i do agree with him.


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ya know, the easiest way to get through this is to say, "HEY! lets follow the rules for dice rolling as mentioned in the BRB!"

and then everyone wins because no1 gets screwed

Sometimes you are allowed a re-roll of the dice. This means you pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll them again.

I really can't see it saving all that much time re-rolling everything at the same time.

We regularly roll paired sets of dice for re-rolls.

time wizard wrote:Sometimes you are allowed a re-roll of the dice. This means you pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll them again.

I really can't see it saving all that much time re-rolling everything at the same time.

QFT here. What's the time saved on rolling two pair and picking out the miss versus rolling one, then picking it up and rolling again? A few seconds?

puma713 wrote:

time wizard wrote:Sometimes you are allowed a re-roll of the dice. This means you pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll them again

...let me get this straight. People are saying that rolling 2d6 in one roll is a passingly acceptable replacement to rolling 1d6 picking it or another die up and rolling it? Craaazy =\

for a TL lascannon I roll 2 dice and pick the highest. I do this because I have unsubstantiated belief that I always miss win I roll 1 die. I know there's no statistical evidence to prove this but I believe it completely.

Look I said it was unsubstantiated ... Don't judge me!!!

Mathematically there is no difference between rolling two dice and checking to see if either succeeds, or rolling one die and re-rolling it if it misses. This only works with a single die roll, though. Not multiples. If you have a couple different things at once, though (like both lascannons on a godhammer landraider), as noted you need to use different dice you can easily distinguish.

It does save a bit of time over the course of a game, depending on how many twin-linked things you're shooting.

Mannahnin wrote:Mathematically there is no difference between rolling two dice and checking to see if either succeeds, or rolling one die and re-rolling it if it misses.

Physically, in terms of physics, which is just applied mathematics right there is a huge difference however.