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So I recently came across some posts saying Tailored Lists are a bad thing because they don't show tactical leadership, only that you know what the army is weak against. However, in mein eyes, Tailored Lists are a smart thing, because there is really no point in bringing something that is less effective against the army your currently fighting.

Example: No point in bringing Plague Marines with FNP against Khorne Daemons, they have power weapons and ignore it anyway.

A Tailored List is a list made specifically to combat a certain army, in case you didn't know.

I think it is poor sportsmanship if nothing else. If you are playing let's say FNP death guard, and they usually play slaanesh daemons. They look at your army, walk around, chat you up a bit and...

*BAM!*

They pull out khorne daemons with as many FNP negating units as possible.

You're not going to be that happy...

They show that you know what works with what, but you can't use your own army. Simply make a list that can handle all situations evenly, and hope it works out well.

My Sisters just cannot win against a Guard army tailored to it.

Autocannon spam + high STR AP3 large blasts = lots of destroyed rhinos and dead Sisters.

So regardless of if they're good or bad, I don't play against tailored lists, I don't do it with my Orks or Guard army, either.

For league games that allow you to know your opponent and there's a competitive incentive, then I wouldn't care. Bring your hardest. You can only tune so much, and what happens if the stuff you are trying to avoid doesn't show up in the other guy's tailored list? There's a risk involved.

For a friendly pick-up game, trying to min/max is not friendly and doesn't teach you as much as playing a balanced, all-comers type list.

And for the record, the "tailoring" that most people dislike the most is doing something like picking your Librarian powers before a match to screw your opponent as opposed to always running the same couple of powers. That sort of thing is WAAC, bush-league stuff.

The most amusing thing i ever saw was someone who had tailored their list, expecting a mech guard army. The person then went all out infantry - just go overwhelmed.

Tailoring your list frankly i find amusing, there's so much choice in any army list (in theory) that doing so often fails to epic proportions!

Also there is so much more skill and accomplishment to take an army which you take to take on all comers and manage to beat a hoard army a loganwing army and a mech army.

So yeah tailoring your armies is just a little rubbish imho

This happens to me quite a bit. I regularly play my DE as my main army (drugs and skull "defiling" are just too much fun to pass up). So when every I bring them to the table he makes sure to slam down as many auto cannons and Hell Hounds that he can (even though he would never take auto cannons against any of my other armies, the 12" flame templates is kind of a dick move too being STR 6 with no cover saves).

It's always driven me crazy when he changes his list completely depending on the army I'm playing. I just hate the idea of stacking the odds so high in your favor just to win at all costs. I always just write a general list and use that against most armies (though you'll have to forgive me when I skip on the haywire grenades when I play against 'Nids).

Reaver83 wrote:Tailoring your list frankly i find amusing, there's so much choice in any army list (in theory) that doing so often fails to epic proportions!

Any fifth edition army list maybe. There's no real variety in older lists though... anything that will destroy mech sisters will probably destroy footslogging sisters too, for example. And Grey Knights/Daemonhunters armies aren't gonna have that much variation either. Necron armies suffer from the same issues IIRC...

Sweet, never would have lumped myself with WAAC players, but hey!

It's actually how my gaming group plays. All of us are random enough that we never know exactly what each other bring, but we do kind of tailor our lists to each other. It has always been our.... beleifs, if you will, that only a fool will ignore hard intel on enemy stratagems. One of the things we "teach" our newer players is: Repetition is a good thing. If you can make your opponent beleive that you will bring certain aspects over a certain number of games, and then swap on the 3,4, or 5th game, you can royally screw him over before the battle even begins.

Man, I'm totally different than most players. I tailor my list, not many others do. I almost never run plagues and a lash prince, thats all anyone else does.... I'm speshul!

Gaming group "tailoring" can fall into a separate category, really. When you keep playing the same lists and players, you tend to evolve naturally, especially if you're consistently on the losing end. It's more of an arms race than list tailoring: you get a unit or two that screws up your opponent, they change their list and do the same, you respond in kind, etc. That's all done in an environment where it is expected and the favor is returned.

List tailoring that is unfriendly is more like taking a huge collection of your army to a store and deciding which 1750 list to play when you find out who your opponent is. Playing against a gunline with no bubblewrap infantry or mystics? Out comes the all-reserve deepstrike/alpha strike army! Playing against a meltagun heavy anti-vehicle list? Out comes the 250 model foot horde! That sort of thing. Not friendly, a waste of both players time, and you probably learn nothing from it.

I do slightly but really just to make things fair. I mean I play non cheesy chaos marines so I kinda have to. But I dont take it to any extreme by any means. If its a horde army yes my combi weapons are now flamers or if its mech guard yes some auto cannons will show up but I dont do it to any extreme and when someone does some slight tailoring to me its fine.

But what isnt fine is when its take to an extreme. Oh you have marines? well now ever single option to take plasma I will use. oh you have orks?? Now my list has 15 flamers in it. Things like that I dont really find fair nor fun.

There are a few people at my store that do do this so I always avoid playing them unless I have a wild card with me and bring another army with me. Its always nice to put it to those few guys that do do that. Oh i am gunna play the chaos player gunna grab all my plasma then I drop 120 orks on the table and then they quickly learn how it feels.

I could pretty much copy/ paste my reply from the other thread the op was talking about but I'm with him. Everyone at my FLGS tailors their list to their list opponent. It's just business as usual. As someone else said it's not without risks- you may find your opponent taking a very unusual list and you get worked over because it's not the list you were expecting to fight. You can only tailor so much before you're potentially shooting yourself in the foot.

That's all well and fine for NEWER codices, but older ones prtty much have one playstyle that's anywhere close to good.

A talented person making a list doesn't need to tailor...

The mark of a good player (good as in, desirable to play with/against) is one who doesnt want to win at all cost every game, but appreciates when they are bested fairly.
And it takes far more skill to win with a balanced, take all comers list, than a list focussed on killing on specific other list. Makes for boring games if you ask me.

goes along with the person i played the other day... I play full mech with about 20 actual soldiers most elite combat guys he saw me play in the game before....bam his game rolls around say hello to 10+ lascannons 5 plasmacannons and a posh load of other stuff

tailoring stuff is ok within reason but when you're looking at his all-comers list and you have enough guys to do whatever the heck you want it aint a fair fight either way

Melissia wrote:That's all well and fine for NEWER codices, but older ones prtty much have one playstyle that's anywhere close to good.

A talented person making a list doesn't need to tailor...

To true, but I don't fight any of those older ones, so I have no comment about what I would do against them.

Wyvern wrote:The mark of a good player (good as in, desirable to play with/against) is one who doesnt want to win at all cost every game, but appreciates when they are bested fairly.
And it takes far more skill to win with a balanced, take all comers list, than a list focussed on killing on specific other list. Makes for boring games if you ask me.

Does it really? Is not recognizing what your opponents weakness' are and exploiting them not only a rudemental skill, but also one of Sun Tzo's basic maximes of Warfare? And not all people who tailor lists are WAAC, I myself will let an opponent move or shoot a unit he forgot to previously.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, just trying to get into your guy's mindset, as a good general should (If you know yourself and know your enemy you need not fear the result of 1000 battles -Sun Tzo).

P.S. I come from a military family, Great Grandfather, Grandfather, Father, and now brother, hence the Sun Tzo quotes.

I hate tailored lists. Personally I feel you should build a well-balanced list and adjust tactics to your opponent. Tailoring lists is, imho, a handicap / crutch used to make up for poor playing ability.

Case in point a blood angels player at my FLGS knows I play Tau, so when he asked me for a game he said "hold on I'll make a list" and brought out an almost entirely jump-pack list maxed with vanguard vets to DS & charge me.
The look on his face when I pulled out my green-tide orks I had just obtained that week was priceless & he got smashed.

Also consider the scale of 40k games (non-apoc). They tend to be small skirmishes with your force consisting of 5-10 squads (on average) starting 36" max from your opponent (that's about 2,000 yards assuming 1in=1yd or just under 1 mile assuming 1in = 2yd). To me this is like two patrols clashing in close proximity, which would imply that you don't have time to say "excuse me me foul xenos, but could you possibly wait here while I go get some guys who are better qeuipted to kill you than myself?"

Slarg232 wrote:

Melissia wrote:That's all well and fine for NEWER codices, but older ones prtty much have one playstyle that's anywhere close to good.

A talented person making a list doesn't need to tailor...

To true, but I don't fight any of those older ones, so I have no comment about what I would do against them.

Wyvern wrote:The mark of a good player (good as in, desirable to play with/against) is one who doesnt want to win at all cost every game, but appreciates when they are bested fairly.
And it takes far more skill to win with a balanced, take all comers list, than a list focussed on killing on specific other list. Makes for boring games if you ask me.

Does it really? Is not recognizing what your opponents weakness' are and exploiting them not only a rudemental skill, but also one of Sun Tzo's basic maximes of Warfare? And not all people who tailor lists are WAAC, I myself will let an opponent move or shoot a unit he forgot to previously.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, just trying to get into your guy's mindset, as a good general should (If you know yourself and know your enemy you need not fear the result of 1000 battles -Sun Tzo).

P.S. I come from a military family, Great Grandfather, Grandfather, Father, and now brother, hence the Sun Tzo quotes.

about your comment about seeing one's weakness and exploiting it , Using you're troops to find a breach in his lines to hit some side armour or if he is in a long line forcing him to split his forces is one thing. but saying o look he's gunline and then taking all drop/jump troopers is a whole 'nother thing. Frankly anyone that does tailoring against me I refuse to play against again it's just a waste of my time to play a person that has no strategy and just feels the need to beat someone....

if you play CoD i thnk you could equate tailors to campers/aimbotters

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I hate tailored lists. Personally I feel you should build a well-balanced list and adjust tactics to your opponent. Tailoring lists is, imho, a handicap / crutch used to make up for poor playing ability.

Case in point a blood angels player at my FLGS knows I play Tau, so when he asked me for a game he said "hold on I'll make a list" and brought out an almost entirely jump-pack list maxed with vanguard vets to DS & charge me.
The look on his face when I pulled out my green-tide orks I had just obtained that week was priceless & he got smashed.

He got what he deserved, however, I would (and I just know I'm going to get flak for this...) call foul play. It's an unwritten rule in my game group that you have to say what army your playing before the game starts and lists are made, and if you change your mind, you have to tell the other guy as a curtousy. In a tourny that allowed it, yeah, that was a smooth move on your part and an easy win.

Da_Mega_Grot wrote:about your comment about seeing one's weakness and exploiting it , Using you're troops to find a breach in his lines to hit some side armour or if he is in a long line forcing him to split his forces is one thing. but saying o look he's gunline and then taking all drop/jump troopers is a whole 'nother thing. Frankly anyone that does tailoring against me I refuse to play against again it's just a waste of my time to play a person that has no strategy and just feels the need to beat someone....

if you play CoD i thnk you could equate tailors to campers/aimbotters

I do not play CoD, and while I hate aimbotters, Camping (as loath as it is and I will teabag anyone who does it on any game) is just another strategy. Spawn campers deserve to die and go to hell.

But anyway, if the opponent is only playing a gunline consecutively with little to no variation, it is IMHO that he deserves to get tailored (exception: Older codices). As much of a "crutch" as tailoring is, being a one trick poney is even more abhorent where I play, and we tailor to get people out of that rut.

Slarg232 wrote:

Melissia wrote:That's all well and fine for NEWER codices, but older ones prtty much have one playstyle that's anywhere close to good.

A talented person making a list doesn't need to tailor...

To true, but I don't fight any of those older ones, so I have no comment about what I would do against them.

Wyvern wrote:The mark of a good player (good as in, desirable to play with/against) is one who doesnt want to win at all cost every game, but appreciates when they are bested fairly.
And it takes far more skill to win with a balanced, take all comers list, than a list focussed on killing on specific other list. Makes for boring games if you ask me.

Does it really? Is not recognizing what your opponents weakness' are and exploiting them not only a rudemental skill, but also one of Sun Tzo's basic maximes of Warfare? And not all people who tailor lists are WAAC, I myself will let an opponent move or shoot a unit he forgot to previously.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, just trying to get into your guy's mindset, as a good general should (If you know yourself and know your enemy you need not fear the result of 1000 battles -Sun Tzo).

P.S. I come from a military family, Great Grandfather, Grandfather, Father, and now brother, hence the Sun Tzo quotes.

You know a lot of big words (or think you do, if I were in a sniffier mood I'd take issue with 'maximes' or 'rudemental') unfortunately, squire, there are people on this board who have actually read Tzu, so misquoting him don't really impress anyone.

You would seem to believe that tailoring your list to beat that of your opponent makes you a superb tactician, and quite a chap.

Ooh, let's have a metaphor! Imagine that you and I are playing Rock-Paper-Scissors and that I, for some reason, have not noticed that there is a large mirror behind me. In this mirror you can see my hand as I make my choice. Naturally, every time I reveal paper, you have chosen Scissors, Every time I choose rock, you have chosen Paper - and so on.

This game would not demonstrate your mastery of Rock-Paper-Scissors.


A Tyranid force tailored to fight Tau will loose about as often as Scissors will lose to Paper. As you point out, any army which is depends strongly upon Feel No Pain is at a disadvantage fighting an army with a lot of Power Weapons.

Moreover - you will never become a superb tactician until you are forced to work with a balanced, combined-arms force which depends for success not upon cheap list-building tricks, but upon your own skill.

That said - imagining you meeting another of your kind is amusing. I picture the two of you standing at either end of the table, forever saying "Yeah!? Well I'll put this in my army to counter that"... How do you ever find time to play?

Slarg232 wrote:
He got what he deserved, however, I would (and I just know I'm going to get flak for this...) call foul play. It's an unwritten rule in my game group that you have to say what army your playing before the game starts and lists are made, and if you change your mind, you have to tell the other guy as a curtousy. In a tourny that allowed it, yeah, that was a smooth move on your part and an easy win.

There was no foul play, he failed to ask, and had he done so I would have told him orks. In mine it's customary that you bring your list ahead of time to prevent B.S. like bringing a list that you know will eliminate your opponent by turn 2.

In most tournaments, especially higher level ones, you are required to submit your list when you register, before you even know who else is there. To me this reinforces that list-tailoring is wrong and serves no purpose other than a handicap for less-skilled players.

I guarantee if you played green-tide orks and your opponent brought IG with 9 Manticores, 3 Valks (with those large blast missiles), a mortar & flamer in every squad and a master of ordnance, you wouldn't have very much fun getting pie-plated to death turn one.

Edit: Thank you Azezel, for actually making sense in this thread.

Also there is no need to tailor lists to break one trick ponies. Just change tactics, if you're list can't change tactics maybe yours is also a one trick pony and you should make a more flexible list. (Non-flexible lists will never win in tournaments)

Now what would you people say about the tourney players that build balanced list but always field the strongest army for the current metagame?

If it can handle a variety of armies and still come out on top than it is a well made list. Could it be better against horde? Yes. Could it be better against MeQ? Yes. However if it can face both and come out on top both times in various missions than congrats on a well-made tactically flexible list.

I don't have an issue with making the best list you can I have issues with people who make the best list they can to deal with "that list" and another one for "that list", because in the end with two players the player who made their list 2nd will have a distinct advantage over the other in a varitble rock-paper-scissors that Azezel mentioned earlier.

Azezel wrote:You know a lot of big words (or think you do, if I were in a sniffier mood I'd take issue with 'maximes' or 'rudemental') unfortunately, squire, there are people on this board who have actually read Tzu, so misquoting him don't really impress anyone.

You would seem to believe that tailoring your list to beat that of your opponent makes you a superb tactician, and quite a chap.

Ooh, let's have a metaphor! Imagine that you and I are playing Rock-Paper-Scissors and that I, for some reason, have not noticed that there is a large mirror behind me. In this mirror you can see my hand as I make my choice. Naturally, every time I reveal paper, you have chosen Scissors, Every time I choose rock, you have chosen Paper - and so on.

This game would not demonstrate your mastery of Rock-Paper-Scissors.

I think, therefore I am. I might misuse words sometimes, but meh, unless your fighting a noise marines, words can't hurt And please tell me the misquotes (and definitions, if you have the time), cuz I think I have the basic Idea down. But otherwise, calling me a squire is a bit superfluous and does not fall into the purview of this discussion :3

I do not think of myself as a superb tactician, never have. There is always someone better than you, so acting or thinking your the best or even "Superb" is far from the truth.

As for your metaphor, what kind of R-P-S you playing? Over here, your facing each other and reveal your choice on the count of three. (I do cheat on rock paper scissors though, I send subliminal messages )

A Tyranid force tailored to fight Tau will loose about as often as Scissors will lose to Paper. As you point out, any army which is depends strongly upon Feel No Pain is at a disadvantage fighting an army with a lot of Power Weapons.

Moreover - you will never become a superb tactician until you are forced to work with a balanced, combined-arms force which depends for success not upon cheap list-building tricks, but upon your own skill.

That said - imagining you meeting another of your kind is amusing. I picture the two of you standing at either end of the table, forever saying "Yeah!? Well I'll put this in my army to counter that"... How do you ever find time to play?

Intelligence is a very important part of the armed forces. It doesn't make sense to try to fight a battle of attrition against the guard, you will lose every time. Nor does it make sense to fight the Orks in close combat. Nor is it wise to fight the Eldar without outnumbering them. Knowing what the enemy will bring to the table possibly before he does is a valuable asset, and should not be overlooked.

You don't have to imagine, I'll tell you:
"Hey Chris (my brother)? You want to play Warhammer?"
"Sure, how many points?"
"I don't care, how many do you want to play with?"
"I don't care, that's why I asked you."
"Fine 1000 pts. What are you playing as?"
"Guard, you?"
"Chaos."

*Game*

*After game*
"I see what ya did there with those Havocs, you sneaky bastard. You won't catch me with that again."

Only thing we take time to discuss is how many points we play with.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:There was no foul play, he failed to ask, and had he done so I would have told him orks. In mine it's customary that you bring your list ahead of time to prevent B.S. like bringing a list that you know will eliminate your opponent by turn 2.

In most tournaments, especially higher level ones, you are required to submit your list when you register, before you even know who else is there. To me this reinforces that list-tailoring is wrong and serves no purpose other than a handicap for less-skilled players.

I guarantee if you played green-tide orks and your opponent brought IG with 9 Manticores, 3 Valks (with those large blast missiles), a mortar & flamer in every squad and a master of ordnance, you wouldn't have very much fun getting pie-plated to death turn one.

Edit: Thank you Azezel, for actually making sense in this thread.

Then that is his fault, and again, you did right and showed him whats up.

I am actually building up a 90,000 pt apoc battle for tourney play (Guard) with my two brothers, with no deviations in it. If we get tailored not much we can do about it. We won't complain though.

As for green tide orks, if all you are EVER playing as is green tide orks, you (IMHO) deserve to be pie plated to death.
I used to play with 2 units of 5 marines as my base, with everything else being specialized troops like berserkers, termies, stuff like that. Everyone I played with constantly brought nothing but plasma rifles and would annihilate me by turn 3 at the latest. Your right, I didn't have much fun being killed in white hot plasma, However, I started to swap my army lists up so plasma wouldn't dominate everything I could throw against them.

Its one of the main reasons I have such a disdain for lists that look like:

Daemon Prince with wings, MoS, Lash
7x Plague Marines 2 plasma guns, champ
7x Plague Marines 2 melta guns, champ.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:If it can handle a variety of armies and still come out on top than it is a well made list. Could it be better against horde? Yes. Could it be better against MeQ? Yes. However if it can face both and come out on top both times in various missions than congrats on a well-made tactically flexible list.

I don't have an issue with making the best list you can I have issues with people who make the best list they can to deal with "that list" and another one for "that list", because in the end with two players the player who made their list 2nd will have a distinct advantage over the other in a varitble rock-paper-scissors that Azezel mentioned earlier.

So if the Meta-game swings heavily towards MEQ, "Is the player bad for adjusting his army to the current tourny enviroment?"

Does responding to a shift in the overall meta to where you swap out your large S 4 AP 5 template for more AP 3 shots cross the line?

WHy do you hate those lists. Redundancy can work wonders, like my favorite 'Ard boyz list:

1 Master of the Forge @ 155 pts (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Artificer Armour; Space Marine Bike; Converison Beamer; And They Shall Know No Fear; Blessing of the Omnissiah; Bolster Defenses; Combat Tactics; Independent Character)
1 Space Marine Bike

1 Space Marine Captain @ 170 pts (...in Power Armour)
1 ...in Power Armour (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Iron Halo; Power Armour; Melta Bombs; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; Relic Blade x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Tactics; Independent Character)
1 Space Marine Bike

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

7 Space Marine Bike Squad @ 285 pts (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Meltagun x2; Attack Bike; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Attack Bike (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Multi-Melta; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

7 Space Marine Bike Squad @ 285 pts (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Meltagun x2; Attack Bike; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Attack Bike (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Multi-Melta; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

7 Space Marine Bike Squad @ 285 pts (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Meltagun x2; Attack Bike; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Attack Bike (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Multi-Melta; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

7 Space Marine Bike Squad @ 285 pts (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Meltagun x2; Attack Bike; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Attack Bike (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Multi-Melta; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

7 Space Marine Bike Squad @ 285 pts (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Meltagun x2; Attack Bike; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Attack Bike (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Multi-Melta; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

Total Roster Cost: 2500

Kill the bikes & the dreads pund you with autocannons, forget the bikes for one turn & you have melta in your face, it's flexible, can handle a variety of opponents & missions, and is redundant so if squad X is down than squad Y can easily take it's place, what's not to love? Well done redundancy is hard to tailor against because sure you can kill that threat, but there's 4 more waiting, and with SM I can combat squad. . .

Well, if I know I'm fighting against my Deathwing buddy, I'm going to bring as much plasma as I can. Does that count as a tailored list? I feel like there's a bit more tourney talk here than I can grasp. That's just playing smart. Of course he knows which army I'm taking as well so he can make sure he's spending his points right too.

Brother SRM wrote:Well, if I know I'm fighting against my Deathwing buddy, I'm going to bring as much plasma as I can. Does that count as a tailored list? I feel like there's a bit more tourney talk here than I can grasp. That's just playing smart. Of course he knows which army I'm taking as well so he can make sure he's spending his points right too.

Exactly my point.

Dorian, I hate those plague lash lists because there is no originality in them anymore. I'll take Plague Marines, I'll take a lash sorcerer/prince, but you will never see a list from me that is plague marines, lash princes, oblits, and hardly anything else. They aren't fun to use for me, even if they are widely considered the "Most competative".

As for your White Scars list, I would have no complaint if you were to field that on me (More of a complaint that it would be 2,500 pts, I'm usually in 1,000 pt battles), but nor would I expect you to complain if I were to figure out a stacked list that blows that one away in two turns, either, after you feilded it against me 5 times in a row. Edit: Though is that list even legal? All it is is biker squads, and I thought you had to have a special character in order to do that.

SRM, it's kinda odd argueing with you on this side of the debate for once. I doubt you remember when we were talking about the Codex when I first joined.

I don't like it, but no one in my group really does it anyway. One SM guy writes all his lists right before the game because he has so much stuff he wants to try out new stuff all the time. He does tailor a bit, but it doesn't really bother me anyone.

When I started, I had like 3 different lists for whatever army I would be fighting, but now, I have a general list that can cover all the bases: anti-horde, anti-tank, and objective grabbing. You don't need to have a tailored list to win if you have a good list and know what you're doing.

aaagh incoherent rant. I'm too tired for this.

focusedfire wrote:Now what would you people say about the tourney players that build balanced list but always field the strongest army for the current metagame?

The tournament environment is, by its nature supposed to select for the strongest player - don't enter if you don't intend to win. This includes a mastery of the metagame, which will influence the list you use. However, all tournaments require entrants to submit and stick to a single list (per round or per tournament), which may not then be tailored.

Slarg232 wrote:

I think, therefore I am. I might misuse words sometimes, but meh, unless your fighting a noise marines, words can't hurt And please tell me the misquotes (and definitions, if you have the time), cuz I think I have the basic Idea down. But otherwise, calling me a squire is a bit superfluous and does not fall into the purview of this discussion :3

Oh for the love of... No - I do actually have the time, let's do this thing. Tzu never said 'If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the result of a hundred battles' (and yes, it was a hundred, not a thousand, but I'll let that one slide). Tzu was merely repeating a folk-saying of his time as a summing up of his own famous five-point check-list for victory. He appended it as an after-thought for people (naming no names here) who haven't got the attention span to read five bullet points.

Which reminds me, one of those points concerned the necessity of being able to beat armies superior to your own, as well as those inferior (I can't provide the exact quote, it's been a few years, but if you ask I promise I will look it up and get back to you).

And 'squire', in English slang, is merely a form of address implying slight inferiority. Were I American I'd probably have called you 'bub' or some such.

Slarg232 wrote:I do not think of myself as a superb tactician, never have. There is always someone better than you, so acting or thinking your the best or even "Superb" is far from the truth.

As for your metaphor, what kind of R-P-S you playing? Over here, your facing each other and reveal your choice on the count of three. (I do cheat on rock paper scissors though, I send subliminal messages )

Could've fooled me, squire. Your tone strongly implies that tailoring an army list is the acme of brilliance - which you further embellish by applying the Sun Tzu Seal of Tactical Genius(C).

As for Rock-Paper-Scissors, it's fairer played from behind the back because (ironically enough) that prevents people from cheating. But I fear we're wondering slightly at this point.

Slarg232 wrote:Intelligence is a very important part of the armed forces. It doesn't make sense to try to fight a battle of attrition against the guard, you will lose every time. Nor does it make sense to fight the Orks in close combat. Nor is it wise to fight the Eldar without outnumbering them. Knowing what the enemy will bring to the table possibly before he does is a valuable asset, and should not be overlooked.

Allow me to quote someone (fun!) - "You go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time."

That'd be your former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

You're imagining that your army knows precisely what it's up against and has infinite liberty and resources to counter that threat. As any of the military men you cite as family will tell you, that's just not how it is. You cannot support your policy by appealing to realism.

I can't resist it, I'm going to quote someone else - Shas'O Dorian -

On the issue of tailoring lists imagine a space marine:
"Excuse me foul xenos scum, I know we just met but would you mind waiting here while I run back to base & bring my friends who are better at killing you than I am?"

In any event - even if none of the above mattered, you are doing yourself a disservice. You will never reach your full potential - whatever that is - until you throw down your crutch and walk. The alternative is that one day someone kicks it out from under you and you fall on your arse. We all laugh.

It is legal, a bike captain allows bike squads of at least (5?) models to be taken as troops. Also good luck finding a list that will "Blow it away" as said, you can target the 6 dreads & have the bikers turbo-boost into melta range, or you can target the bikes, who may or may not combat squad, while getting pounded by 24 twin linked autocannons per turn.

Now I can see where we may be having some misunderstanding, I'm arguing against tailored lists that are "well I'll fight this army with this list and that army with that list" NOT tailored in the sense that "boy mech keeps stomping me, I guess I need more AT, let's fix that"