Tailored lists: Good or bad?

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**focusedfire**

Azezel wrote:
focusedfire wrote:Now what would you people say about the tourney players that build balanced list but always field the strongest army for the current metagame?

The tournament environment is, by its nature supposed to select for the strongest player - don't enter if you don't intend to win. This includes a mastery of the metagame, which will influence the list you use. However, all tournaments require entrants to submit and stick to a single list (per round or per tournament), which may not then be tailored.

The point I was working towards is that there is often a bit of do as I say but not as I do. Many(Not all or even most) tourny players have no problem when it is their newest shiniest army list but will decry others for doing so. the term WAAC gets bandied about yet while the definition is clear, different types of players apply the meaning at different levels.

I was working towards the idea that the same mentality that drives people to only play the most powerful lists in a tourny don't have much roon to criticize those who emulate such behavior in other areas.

Now do not take this to mean that I am in favor of power gaming, far from such. I am merely pointing out parrallels.

**Slarg232**

Azezel wrote:Oh for the love of... No - I do actually have the time, let's do this thing. Tzu never said 'If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the result of a hundred battles' (and yes, it was a hundred, not a thousand, but I'll let that one slide). Tzu was merely repeating a folk-saying of his time as a summing up of his own famous five-point check-list for victory. He appended it as an after-thought for people (naming no names here) who haven't got the attention span to read five bullet points.

Which reminds me, one of those points concerned the necessity of being able to beat armies superior to your own, as well as those inferior (I can't provide the exact quote, it's been a few years, but if you ask I promise I will look it up and get back to you).

And 'squire', in English slang, is merely a form of address implying slight inferiority. Were I American I'd probably have called you 'bub' or some such.
I am fully willing to read that quote if you want to look it up for me, kind serf.
Slarg232 wrote:I do not think of myself as a superb tactician, never have. There is always someone better than you, so acting or thinking your the best or even "Superb" is far from the truth.

As for your metaphor, what kind of R-P-S you playing? Over here, your facing each other and reveal your choice on the count of three. (I do cheat on rock paper scissors though, I send subliminal messages )

Could've fooled me, squire. Your tone strongly implies that tailoring an army list is the acme of brilliance - which you further embellish by applying the Sun Tzu Seal of Tactical Genius(C).

And your tone strongly implies that you look down your nose upon everyone with a salary that can't be spent upon toy soldiers and also upon those who don't opnder cunundrums of philosophy and are reminded by the smell of wet dog.

Slarg232 wrote:Intelligence is a very important part of the armed forces. It doesn't make sense to try to fight a battle of attrition against the guard, you will lose every time. Nor does it make sense to fight the Orks in close combat. Nor is it wise to fight the Eldar without outnumbering them. Knowing what the enemy will bring to the table possibly before he does is a valuable asset, and should not be overlooked.

Allow me to quote someone (fun!) - "You go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time."

That'd be your former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

You're imagining that your army knows precisely what it's up against and has infinite liberty and resources to counter that threat. As any of the military men you cite as family will tell you, that's just not how it is. You cannot support your policy by appealing to realism.

I can't resist it, I'm going to quote someone else - Shas'O Dorian -
On the issue of tailoring lists imagine a space marine:
"Excuse me foul xenos scum, I know we just met but would you mind waiting here while I run back to base & bring my friends who are better at killing you than I am?"

In any event - even if none of the above mattered, you are doing yourself a disservice. You will never reach your full potential - whatever that is - until you throw down your crutch and walk. The alternative is that one day someone kicks it out from under you and you fall on your arse. We all laugh.

My army does not know what it is up against, nore does it have the infinite liberty or resources to counter that. I, however, do. There is a fine line between realism and realistic, this is the later, not the former.

Shas'O Dorian's quote is too true, back in my MMO days I used to run by exactly the same thing. I would be a rogue, a fighter would come out try to kill me, I would evade him, and then he would yell at me "I'm going to go log on MY rogue, and I'll kill you then!". You know what I did? I left the area. The point being: You don't advertise what you intend to do to your enemy.

Doing myself a disservice, huh? Explain to me how I would be doing myself a disservice in dumby talk, would you please. (No words with more than 3 syllables, would you kindly.)

@Shas'O Dorian: Whats the average table length of the area you game at? Cuz no list is perfect, and I can already think of a counter to your biker army.

Also, I do tailor my list like you say in the first quote, but not to an extreme extreme. I have never taken 20 odd flamers in a match, but I don't sit there with a four lascannon havoc squad against Nids, either.

Edit: Answers are underlined/bolded, I have NO idea what just happened there..

**Shas'O Dorian**

standard 4X6

**kill dem stunties**

List tailoring is nothing but a crutch for people who are terrible at 40k. "Hmm i know i cant win unless i look at his army list, and take nothing but counters for everything he took."

List tailoring is just a step away from cheating.

**Slarg232**

Shas'O Dorian wrote:1 Master of the Forge @ 155 pts (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Artificer Armour; Space Marine Bike; Converison Beamer; And They Shall Know No Fear; Blessing of the Omnissiah; Bolster Defenses; Combat Tactics; Independent Character)
1 Space Marine Bike

1 Space Marine Captain @ 170 pts (...in Power Armour)
1 ...in Power Armour (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Iron Halo; Power Armour; Melta Bombs; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; Relic Blade x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Tactics; Independent Character)
1 Space Marine Bike

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

7 Space Marine Bike Squad @ 285 pts (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Meltagun x2; Attack Bike; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Attack Bike (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Multi-Melta; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

7 Space Marine Bike Squad @ 285 pts (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Meltagun x2; Attack Bike; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Attack Bike (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Multi-Melta; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

7 Space Marine Bike Squad @ 285 pts (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Meltagun x2; Attack Bike; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Attack Bike (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Multi-Melta; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

7 Space Marine Bike Squad @ 285 pts (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Meltagun x2; Attack Bike; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Attack Bike (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Multi-Melta; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

7 Space Marine Bike Squad @ 285 pts (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Meltagun x2; Attack Bike; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Attack Bike (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Multi-Melta; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)

Total Roster Cost: 2500

Daemon Prince: Wings, MoS, Lash of Submission 155 pts
Daemon Prince: Wings, MoS, Lash of Submission 155 pts.
3 Terminators 3 Combi Meltas 105pts
3 Terminators 3 Combi Meltas 105 pts
3 Terminators 3 Combi Meltas 105 pts
8 Thousan Sons, Sorcerer (9 models), Doombolt, Personal Icon 259 pts
8 Thousan Sons, Sorcerer (9 models), Bolt of Change, Personal Icon 274 pts
8 Thousan Sons, Sorcerer (9 models), Bolt of Change, Personal Icon 274 pts
3 Obliterators 225 pts.
3 Obliterators 225 pts.
3 Obliterators 225 pts.
10 Lesser Summoned Daemons 130pts.
10 Lesser Summoned Daemons 130pts.
10 Lesser Summoned Daemons 130pts.

74 bodies.
Total: 2497 pts

Termicides and Obliterators take out your dreads when they Deepstrike, the Thousand Sons laugh off your Meltaguns with a 4+ invulnerable save and cut your bikers down with shooting, if you assault the Daemons get summoned in (you have no close combat assault units (Unless thats what Combat Squads means)), and if you stay out at 24" shooting the Multi-Melta's, I'll lash you closer. If you use your advanced mobility, you can't fire, so that's a moot point after turn 3, at the latest. I was debating putting all the 1k sons in Rhinos, but whats the point? Your army needs to be close to be effective without your dreads.

I would ONLY pull this kind of list out in the following curcomstances:
1. You used your biker list constantly, as a one trick pony.
2. You bragged about an "Unbeatable list".
3. I. Don't. Like. The. Player.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kill dem stunties wrote:List tailoring is nothing but a crutch for people who are terrible at 40k. "Hmm i know i cant win unless i look at his army list, and take nothing but counters for everything he took."

List tailoring is just a step away from cheating.

No, that is blatant cheating. Looking at an opponents list BEFORE the match and without permission (odd as that seems) is just cheating, no matter what name you call it. I'm talking about Player A playing List Alpha against Player B, List Alpha against Player C, Alpha against Player D, and then Player E, who has been watching him play, coming in with List Energon which was built specifically to counter Alpha. If A doesn't know how to switch it up after every few games, he deserves to get countered (again, barring older armies.)

**focusedfire**

@kill dem stunties-Yet list/army tailoring for each tourney round/announced missions to keep up with the current meta is accepted. It is in essence a similar mind set.

**kill dem stunties**

What? ive never even heard of a tourney where youre allowed to change lists between games ....

And no, building a list to counter the most common possibilities it NOT the same as looking at your opponents list, knowing every mechanic of it and building a list that can do nothing but deconstruct that list.

Tailoring is cheating, making a tactically flexible list is intelligent.

**Slarg232**

kill dem stunties wrote:What? ive never even heard of a tourney where youre allowed to change lists between games ....

And no, building a list to counter the most common possibilities it NOT the same as looking at your opponents list, knowing every mechanic of it and building a list that can do nothing but deconstruct that list.

Tailoring is cheating, making a tactically flexible list is intelligent.

Then tell me, How is it cheating?

If someone is going to use an army CONSTANTLY. CONSTANTLY. CONSTANTLY. Then they need to get knocked off their high horse.

If someone looks through the enemies list, then YES, that is cheating. But you will have to excuse me that after 5 odd times of running into a certain list I don't knock that list down.

Edit: Man, that sounds alot more..... grevious than I intended it.

**kill dem stunties**

No, i dont have to excuse you. List tailoring is viewed as cheating/extremely poor sportsmanship overwhelmingly so by wargamers for a reason.

Also, the house rule youre place has going where you have to tell them what army youre playing before you make lists, it sounds like a 12 year old thats hates losing runs things at your store. Hence the need for the crutch.

**Slarg232**

kill dem stunties wrote:No, i dont have to excuse you. List tailoring is viewed as cheating/extremely poor sportsmanship overwhelmingly so by wargamers for a reason.

Also, the house rule youre place has going where you have to tell them what army youre playing before you make lists, it sounds like a 12 year old thats hates losing runs things at your store. Hence the need for the crutch.

..... Was that just a personal attack?

**Shas'O Dorian**

key word WHEN they deepstrike, so turn one, 24 autocannon shots twin linked into one squad of 1k sons or better a DP since I will be able to avoid your 1k sons until I'm ready to deal with them, during which my bikes will have 3+ cover (turbo-boosted) or be outside 24" and so safe from AP3 bolters
6 dead (5.8) that's one squad more or less useless (12 if I have 1st turn) before you even have a chance to bring in the oblits / termies

I combat squad (I can split my squads in half and become more mobile) & now have 10 bike squads go ahead & lash one squad into CC, you'll win & then 2 more squads will be waiting when that combat is over. 3 melta, (1 wound) 20 twin linked bolters 17 hits, 5.6 wounds, 1.8 wounds. This would probably kill your DP & to do it twice would take 6/10 squads.

Now the other 4 can deal with more of your 1k sons move, shoot, assault (bcz I'm relentless so those nasty AP3 guns are next to useless)
or if you went 1st I take my combat squad with 2 meltas to your oblits (IF they came in) who are I.D'd and bolters then again charge because of relentless, strike before you and I'd wager that's now either 1 or no oblits. The other squads can help with the oblits or avois the termies who are slow. - Keep in mind they won't all be in at once

Summoned daemons are not scary they are one of the worst units I've ever seen not to mention they are reserves so you have to hope they become available at the right time, I hit & wound on 4, you have the save of a guardsman. You hit on 4 wound on 5 & I have a 3+ I'm willing to bet I win that fight. Or I can just combat tactics fall-back, ATSKNF re-group, rapid fire & assault you on my turn.

Termicide & oblits? please. . . also DS melta termies? confident in your scatter are you? You won't be within icon range.
Let's break down the DS:
Turn 2, you get 3 units
Turn 3 you get 2
Turn 4 you get your last one.
Also 3 termies are not hard to kill with a few meltas.

Also note I have not decided what to do with the Master of the forge or that captain, they add to that tactical flexability. Keep in mind dice can have an effect but overall I'm very confident in my lists tactical flex to conquer your "tailored" list. To me your list relies too much on your units DS in when they need to and not enough on actual math-hammered odds.

**Slarg232**

Termis not hard to kill with meltas? Too bad your no longer in range of them

You go ahead and attack and fall back afterward: that leaves you within range of my guns, and my guns will hurt alot more than yours will.

Also, Your assuming that we are playing with no terrain. Your dreadnaughts probably wont all be able to shoot, and even so, 3+ armor save.

Also, the Daemons are not solely for combat, they also block your shots.

And how right would I be in assuming that if I blow up half of your split squad, it still counts as one squad being half strength: No more objectives for Yoooou.

**Shas'O Dorian**

Fall back after my attack, no that's stupid I fall back after YOUR assault phase if I lose combat, which against daemons AND 1k sons I will.

Outside range? says who, bike move 12" then shoot 12" so my meltas are 24" range & multi are 36 effective and if melta are out of range I'll TL bolters at you (24" rapid 36 single effective range), less effective but still kills. - Remember bikes are relentless

Ok so with terrain my bikes have 4+ cover aginst your 1k sons and as said my dreads can shoot other things.

You would be 100% wrong actually SM codex page 51 "each combat squad is treated as a separate unit. . ."

Daemons blocking my shots? oh poo, too bad you can take EITHER a 4+ cover or a 4+ invuln or a 3+ armor and with 10 daemons you aren't blocking total LoS not to mention if the daemons give YOU cover they also give ME cover, which is to my exclusive benefit, and giving your opponent free cover is a big tactical fail. . .

**focusedfire**

kill dem stunties wrote:What? ive never even heard of a tourney where youre allowed to change lists between games ....

And no, building a list to counter the most common possibilities it NOT the same as looking at your opponents list, knowing every mechanic of it and building a list that can do nothing but deconstruct that list.

Tailoring is cheating, making a tactically flexible list is intelligent.

Was refering to tourny rounds on a national level(think 'Ard Boyz) where the missions are pre announced for each round.

I understand what Tailoring is, IMO there is a similar mentality at play when someone tries to mathhammer their way to victory by building against the prevailing trend. An all-comers list implys that you are building to take on MEQ, Horde and Mech lists equally as opposed to the current tourny pattern of tailor made lists to go after the most common lists.

I understand that there is a difference but it seems close enough to be a bit of a double standard. If not a double standard I can see where younge players feel that list tailoring is acceptable.

**kill dem stunties**

There is no double standard.

For one you cant accurately guess the meta of the tourney youll be going to, let alone the fact you may end up facing the random army from mr try to throw a wrench in the meta.

Youre crazy if you think considering probable opponents for a series of games weeks/months away, is the same as going up to someone youre going to play, asking them what army theyre playing, then sitting down to write the most anti that army you can.

There is no similarity at all.

**focusedfire**

kill dem stunties wrote:There is no double standard.

For one you cant accurately guess the meta of the tourney youll be going to, let alone the fact you may end up facing the random army from mr try to throw a wrench in the meta.

Youre crazy if you think considering probable opponents for a series of games weeks/months away, is the same as going up to someone youre going to play, asking them what army theyre playing, then sitting down to write the most anti that army you can.

There is no similarity at all.

No, I'm not crazy. Just observant. Like when certain missions are announced for a no paint needed tournament and watch some one switch from their planned army to a recently released one that he had to build about 20 models in 3-4 days time to get it ready in time. The fact that that he didn't place means nothing. The fact that it was casually accepted as a good idea by those around him does indicate a similar desire to possibly exploit the situation or the rules.

It is difficult to get some players to see the difference. I understand your point and where you set the distiction, I also see where others would use these practices by the tourny players
as an example that list tailoring is acceptable. I'm just looking at it from both points of view.

**Scott-S6**

The problem with list tailoring is that only one person's doing it - the person that know's what the opponent's got and has an alternative army ready.

Army lists are secret until both lists are decided.

Plus, it can screw you. Guy finds out I'm playing orks, packs in the heavy bolters and missile launchers - I put down all battlewagons.

**Azezel**

Slarg232 wrote:
I am fully willing to read that quote if you want to look it up for me, kind serf.

For the sake of your education, I am pleased to do so. (Which is to say, I did promise and can hardly back out now...)

Chapter 3, Verse 17, Essential 2: 'He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.'

(Verse 18 is the part you were misquoting, as though you care.)

Slarg232 wrote:
And your tone strongly implies that you look down your nose upon everyone with a salary that can't be spent upon toy soldiers and also upon those who don't opnder cunundrums of philosophy and are reminded by the smell of wet dog.

Reminded of what by the smell of wet dog? Dogs?

Anyway, without getting too personal, it'd be fairer to say I look down my nose at people who think that using a lot of ten-guinea words they they barely understand and misquoting books which they have not read makes for a good debate.

Slarg232 wrote: Doing myself a disservice, huh? Explain to me how I would be doing myself a disservice in dumby talk, would you please. (No words with more than 3 syllables, would you kindly.)

Nah - I can't be bothered. I've already given you more attention than you deserve.

Abandon Thread.

**Shas'O Dorian**

Scott-S6 wrote:The problem with list tailoring is that only one person's doing it - the person that know's what the opponent's got and has an alternative army ready.

Army lists are secret until both lists are decided.

Plus, it can screw you. Guy finds out I'm playing orks, packs in the heavy bolters and missile launchers - I put down all battlewagons.

QFT, this is why I play orks & Tau and refuse to tell my opponent which until they make their list.
Now to those who consider this list tailoring it isn't I don't ask what they are playing then decide, when they hand over their army list I hand over mine as well that way neither of us knows what the other is bringing until we're set on what we're bringing ourselves.

**Wraithlordmechanic**

So I brought this up with my LGS this weekend and as I suspected they thought it was strange to use all- comers lists exclusively. Every friendly list here is made after finding out what army your opponent is playing and we don't see any problem with that.

**dayve110**

True story... tailoring lists makes you no friends.

Me: "Do you want to play a normal mission or a battle mission?"
Him: "Battle mission"
Me: "Ok, i usually roll 3 times and we can pick the one that looks the most fun together" (rolls 3 times)
Him: "I don't like any of those, can we play this one?"
Me: "Err... no, that gives a huge advantage to you from the start"
Him: "Can we roll again then?" (rolls 3 times) "I don't like these either, lets try again!" (rolls 3 times) "Hmm, or these, are you sure we can't play this one?"
Me: (sighs) "lets just play a normal one"
Him: "Ok but i don't want to play objectives"
Me: ... "Fine" (Starts getting army out) "Are you getting your army out or not?"
Him: "Oh no, I'm waiting to see what you have, then i'll get mine out"

Suffice to say, this guy hadn't lost yet, except against me, i made him write down what he was taking before anyone put a model on the board... It appears i was the only one to question why he always waited. Out of the regulars in the store he has 1 friend, who seems a bit wierd and smells funny. If everyone you know tailors lists then fine go ahead. But if your the only one doing it... you might find yourself getting less games.

**don_mondo**

Tailoring your list depends upon the venue of the game. Standard pick-up games, nope, I've got a standard 2K, standard 1850, etc etc list ready to go before I show up and before I even find out who, much less what army, I'm playing against. These lists are pretty much the same ones I take to tournaments.

However, our club is also running a competitive challenge pyramid. For that, we 'tailor'. You're locked into your army type (for me it's IG with DH allies) but are allowed to change your list between games. But even there, I have to build my list based upon the player/army that I have a game scheduled with and show up with that list, not knowing what his army composition will be.

**jbunny**

Personally if you are both tailoring your list and you each know what army the other will be playing (ie Chaos Space marines) then it is ok. Me and a friend do this all the time.

However, if I am just at the store and someone wants to play and ask what I got , and then runs to build a list, I will switch Armies as he is writing his list. That or I wont tell him what I am running.

**keezus**

Slarg232 wrote:Does it really? Is not recognizing what your opponents weakness' are and exploiting them not only a rudemental skill, but also one of Sun Tzo's basic maximes of Warfare?

True, but that's war, and this is a game. Losing has significantly less of a drawback other than a possible blow to one's pride. While I have no issues with list buildng in anticipation of your opponent's expected armylist, I find players who tailor their armies AFTER their opponent's army lists are revealed is in poor taste. They usually argue that to not take an advantage when it offers itself is the sign of a weak general - but to me, it smacks of WAAC.

**Dashofpepper**

You can only use a tailored list in games that don't matter. You don't know what you'll be facing in tournament games, which is why it makes sense to always USE a "take-all-comers" list....since its the best practice for games that matter.

In my friendly games, I encourage my opponents to tailor their list to me, and ask them to make the meanest, ugliest list that they could possibly think of to deal with whatever I'm playing that game. Its better practice than random noob-stomping. Don't be afraid of someone tailoring their list to you though - if they do, its probably because they're not good enough to beat you ANYWAY....so it shouldn't really matter.

**keezus**

Slarg232 wrote:If someone is going to use an army CONSTANTLY. CONSTANTLY. CONSTANTLY. Then they need to get knocked off their high horse.

You're overlooking the possibility that the player using the "same army" all the time is much better at the game than the players seeking to "knock them off their high horse"... especially if they have a flexible "take all comers" list.

**Inquisitor_Syphonious**

Shas O' Dorian's net copy & paste list would win that fight. By leagues...

I've already expressed my views of list tailoring.

**Melissia**

keezus wrote:
Slarg232 wrote:If someone is going to use an army CONSTANTLY. CONSTANTLY. CONSTANTLY. Then they need to get knocked off their high horse.

You're overlooking the possibility that the player using the "same army" all the time is much better at the game than the players seeking to "knock them off their high horse"... especially if they have a flexible "take all comers" list.

Or maybe that's just every model they have? Or maybe that's basically all the codex allows at that point level?