Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I keep reading on the internet that Nobz are just so much better than Meganobz, and honestly I just do not understand why people feel that way. Maybe it's how I equip my Nobz, but every time I build a Nob squad it actually costs more than an equivalent Meganobz squad. It generally seems to me that Meganobz are actually the more cost effective option of the two. We can ignore Biker Nobz by the way, I get why you would use Biker Nobz.

Here are a few examples:

I'll ignore Kombi options and transports for the moment, because those actually cost exactly the same for either unit.

5-man MNobz is 200 points - this is a cheap, cost-effective unit and an easy way to stuff more PKs into a 1500 point army (which is the points value we usually play).

A roughly eqivalent Nob squad would be 5 Nobs (2 with PKs) and 1 painboy. This is also 200 points, or 230 if you give them all Eavy Armor. Note that this unit does not have any boss poles or Waagh! banners, and it has 3 less PKs while having 1 more body to soak wounds. So if I actually put a Bosspole, Eavy Armor, and/or Waagh! banner on this unit, then it actually costs more than the 5-man Meganobz.

If you pump these up to 10-man units, then I still run into the same issue:

10 Meganobz is exactly 400 points.

9 Nobz with Eavy Armor and a Painboy is 330. Now add 2 PKS (380), a boss pole (385), and a Waagh! Banner (400). Again this works out to basically the exact same points, except now you have exactly the same number of bodies to soak wounds but 8 fewer PKs.

So I ask you Dakka Dakka, why would you ever use Nobz (excluding biker Nobz) over Meganobz? Because as far as I can tell, the Meganobz are a more cost effective solution in almost all cases.

Valdrad

well, they have slow and purposeful, so they are, well, slow. If they are disembarked from a vehicle, its gonna take em a while to get where they are going.

also, they cannot sweeping advance. This isn't good... the enemy can break away and rapid fire into them next turn, should the enemy survive.

they don't have ANY ability to swing at higher initiative values. Against things like nid monstrous creatures, its a good thing to have some guys with 'uge choppas.

Not sure about this (not an ork player) but don't mega nobz take 2 spaces in a transport, while normal nobs take 1?

Yet another problem - no painboy. This means you cannot choose to give your nobz cybork bodies, so you have NO invulnerable save at all. Not good when the main targets for nobs have power weapons.

Nobs can also take a Waagh banner - raising their weaponskill to 5.

Don't forget that you can assign them all with different weapons - takign advantage of the wound allocation rules.

I actually haven't found Slow and Purposeful to be that big of an issue Hornersstodnt. That's assuming I put the squad in some kind of transport, which I always do.

Yes, both valid points Vrakk.

I'm just not sure how much of an advantage that is. Especially when you factor in the point difference, because a Nob squad equipped so that every model is unique is considerably more expensive than a similar Meganobz squad.

FnP, Invulnerable save (not sure if MANs get this), WS 5, and more room in transports is about all they have going for them.

Just kidding!

Wound allocation abuse!

Its hard to compare points to points. The nob squad will survive much more than the mega-nobs.

I have found that if you want to run megas - take the Mad Dok. This allows you to give them an invul save and if you attach him to them - they are fearless. Now you have 2 wound, furious charge, Feel-no-Pain - terminators for the win!

here's a legit situation that could come up in game....

say your opponent has 5 terminators... 3 TH/SS, 2 LC.

you have a 5 man nob unit. we will look at both the MANZ and normal. For argument's sake, lets say neither side gets the charge, putting them on an even field.




terminators swing first... 9 attacks, 5 hits, 4 wounds. for for MANZ, you need to remove at least 2 models (you can only have at most 2 wound allocation groups because of weapon options. normal nobs will take ~3 wounds, on 3 different models, because of allocation and invulnerable save.

with regular nobs at this point, you get attacks, and for arguments sake, you kill a LC terminator. MANZ have done nothing at this point.

At initiative 1, your 3 MANZ get 9 attacks, your 2 PK regular nobs get 6 attacks...

MANZ: 5 hits, 4 wounds, 2 dead terminators (1 hammer 1 claw)
Nobz: 4 hits, 4 wounds, 2 dead terminators (1 hammer 1 claw).

Terminators swing back... 3 hits, 3 insta-death wounds. For the MANZ, thats the squad. done. for the Nobz, they can allocate those 3 insta-death wounds to already wounded models due to beardy allocation rules... and only 2 die, because of the invulnerable save.

end result - terminators have 2 left (hammers)... MANZ would be all dead, Nobz would have 3 left, and would have lost combat by ~2 wounds or so... not unreasonable to assume they may pass, and go another round.

It's really about the upgrades.

Against non-power-weapon/AP2 wounds, a nob w/ cybork body + FNP is taking 1/3rd of them, a mega-nob is taking 1/6. Against AP2/power weapons, a nob w/ cybork takes 2/rds of the wounds, a meganob takes all of them.

Nobs have access to the banner, letting them hit most things on 3+. They have the ability to take non-powerklaws, if needed. They can take a bosspole, doubling their chance of sticking after getting shot up.

Meganobs get absolutely tore-up against some things. A 5 man squad of tac marines with a powerfist sgt can win combat against 3 meganobs with a little luck. Each powerfist hit scores them two wounds in combat res. At least your normal nobs (W/ cybork bodies) get a save against this.

A small unit of Mega-Nobs can be useful. To have a small, hard-hitting unit like that for only 120 points isn't bad, and it isn't a huge loss if they go down. But, if you're going to invest more points in your unit, the boyz, with all their possible upgrades are a better buy than just more mega-nobz.

In my (somewhat limited) experience of facing both Meganobz and normal Nobz...Meganobz can be really mean if you don't have anything in your army which is tooled to take them down. If you do, then they tend to be a sitting duck.

I'd concur with Redbeards' advice...small unit is sufficient. Large unit of them is simply overkill against most things, or a huge points sink if enemy has something which can kill them easily.

Thank you gentlemen!

That begins to make much more sense to me. So I'm right in that Nobz will tend to cost a lot more points, but I can see that there are cases where those points actually do make a difference.

In 10 man groups Nobs kitted out with wound allocation, Banner, painboy, bosspole and cybork are far better than MANZ....in every way possible!

However, a small 3 man unit of MANZ can be uniquely equipped and come in at a mere 130 points. This is how I use them.

Lately, I have been using 2 of these 130 point MANZ units in my Kanwall list. Why? Battlewagons w/rollas!

These guys get to take a Rolla BW as a dedicated transport, to which I add my 2 KFF Meks. This allows me to field 9 Kans, 2 DeffDreads, and 2 Rolla BWs in my 1750 list, while using shoota boys and grots to take and hold objectives, and MANZ for linebreaking/cleanup.... and everyone gets a cover save

With proper spacing, you can literaly span the length of a 6' table allowing no room to get around the kanwall.

It is not the most effective Ork list that I have ever ran (that would be Kans + Lootas!), however, 11 walkers and 2 BWs are a whole lotta fun to play with....throwing uniquily equipped MANZ in is just icing, and 2 small Nobs units, simply for the sake of getting their BWs don't add much on their own.

blizzard has gone too far towards mechanization, when people are taking units solely for the purpose of taking the transports those units have access to :(

Honersstodnt wrote:blizzard has gone too far towards mechanization, when people are taking units solely for the purpose of taking the transports those units have access to :(

Blizzard? This isn't WoW...LOL

I think you mean GW....Find asnother forum to bash Blizzard (and i'll come join you! )

And it isn't about taking the BW as a tranport per say. Adding 2 Deffrollas to a Dreadbash list of 11 walkers really messes with target priority. By putting your KFF Meks into BWs, you extend the range of the KFF, plus the Rollas are pretty scary too, thus making it a high priority to kill. However, the real strength of the list is the 11 walkers running at the enemy. Plus, the look on your opponents face (unless he is IG) is priceless as he tries to figure out how to kill that many S10 walkers before the get into CC

.... i've just spent the last 8 hours at my job, where i've sat staring at a computer screen reading internet forums because I have no real work to do.

I've gone slightly insane at this point.

I'm fairly convinced GW and Blizzard are the same company... and they are using the internet to attempt to control my mind.

Honersstodnt wrote:.... i've just spent the last 8 hours at my job, where i've sat staring at a computer screen reading internet forums because I have no real work to do.

I've gone slightly insane at this point.

I'm fairly convinced GW and Blizzard are the same company... and they are using the internet to attempt to control my mind.

ROFL!

For those interested in the math, MANz are individually always more survivable than Nobz, unless Cybork is involved.

Losing access to FNP is not inherently bad, as 2+ armor is always a better option, under every possible S/AP combo. 4+/FNP is at most 75% of wounds saved. 2+ is at best 83% of wounds saved. Anything which negates a 2+ save also negates FNP. FNP is also negated by high S, which 2+ is not (for things like Manticores which are S10 AP4, Deffrollas which are S10 but do not have any sort of AP/Power, and so on).

FNP may be no real loss, but losing access to cybork (unless you shell out a slot and points for Mad Doc Grotsnik) means that Nobz are 1/3rd more resilient to anything which ignores armor. 5++ isn't a lot, but it's better than nothing if you're stuck facing armies that bring ridiculous numbers of AP1/2 shooting, rending, power weapon or power fist type attacks, like a meltaspam IG, Khornate Demons, or a Genestealer 'nids.

The wound allocation shenanigans are a bit of mixed blessing. You can get 3 groups out of MANz, versus 10 out of regular Nobz. That means in a maximum sized squad that wounds number 4, 5, 6, and 10 potentially reduce your attacks less for Nobz than MegaNobz. But by comparison, wounds 11, 15, 16 and 17 affect MANz attacks less than Nobz. Nobz will stay stronger to start, but will lose their strength faster at the end.

To me, the real places where Nobz have it over MANz are the ability to take Bosspoles, Waagh Banners, and having access to Cybork. The lack of Slow and Purposeful on Nobz is also a bit of a boost, though practically, if you can get even one turn of usage out of a trukk or battlewagon, you should be close enough that the difference is fairly minimal.

Bosspoles can be mitigated by putting an IC with the MANz unit. Not ideal if you're trying to do DeffWing, but if you're only going to throw 1 or 2 units out there, it's doable. That also usually means Ld8 or 9 base, which is a big help in and of itself, since neither unit is going to keep its Mob Rule for very long.

Waagh Banners can't really be replaced. WS5 is pretty useful against a wide variety of opponents, especially at only 15 points for the whole squad.

In return, MANz have by far the cheapest access to PK attacks in the codex. A Nob with a PK is at least 45 points, and if you add a shoota and either 'eavy armor or cybork to get close to the survivability, they're at least 55, and more if you amortize the Painboyz' cost across the unit. A Nob in a boyz unit with standard fittings (PK, BP, 'eavy Armor) is 51 points.

Personally, I run MANz in 3 ways.

#1 is the MANz Missile. 3 unique MANz in a Trukk with a Ram, Boarding Plank, and RPJ. 180 points. This is a significant threat to any sort of support unit, and a serious tide shifter to throw in with another trukk boy unit in order to win assaults against any sort of larger threat. It's also pretty excellent for hunting vehicles (and a decent way to deal with Dreads) and MCs (though not anything that's S8 or better or which has more than 3 or 4 attacks). Adding a 4th basic MANz makes lets the unit take on some larger squads or meaner MCs without issues. As a slight variant, run with all Kombi-skorchas. You lose allocation, but you can now fairly reliably take on even huge squads of Boyz, 'gaunt broods, and IG blob squads.

#2 is a mid sized troop unit of MANz with a MegaBoss. 4-5 MANz + the Boss in a trukk (~300 total), or 5-6 plus a Boss in a Battlewagon (~400 total). Scoring, survivable, and a lot of high strength attacks. A unit like this can reasonably expect to take on most any other unit in the game (with a few exceptions, like TH/SS Termis and a few MCs like the Swarmlord or a Bloodthirster) and remain scoring.

#3 is the bomb. 8-9 MANz and an IC or 2 in a battlewagon. I've run it with Grotsnik, so that the whole unit can have FNP and Cybork too. Cram it down your opponent's throat and watch them choke on it. Upto 50 PK attacks wrecks pretty much anything, and 20 wounds at 2+ save and possibly with Cybork and FNP means that you'll probably win 2 or 3 combats without being reduced to ineffectiveness. Hugely expensive, but also equally effective. About the only time this doesn't work well is if your opponent can reliably put AP2 or better templates on you. Then you lose a lot of points very fast.

I tend to use at least one or two units of MANz in almost every list. If I don't have other specific HQ plans (like dual Meks, or Grotsnik+ Zogwort), I almost always take at least one of the mid-sized units with a MegaBoss. If I can't take them as troops, I usually take 1 or 2 missile-trukk style units.

Hmmm mad dok in a MANZ mob would be pretty badass. Never thought of that one. Ill have to give that a try one of these days.

I tried it before...

8 Meganobz, Mad Dok, Ghaz, turns into a unit that can take out an army...

You could also Replace Ghaz with a Mega Nob and have Kombi-Rokkits, Kombi-Skorchas. This way you get 3 buckets of 3 models.

10 meganobz = 1 dies every 2 wounds.
10 diversely equipped nobz = one dies every 11 wounds.

Grotsnik is also a bad idea really ... unless you want your 350+ pt deathstar unit chasing a land speeder all game

kill dem stunties wrote:Grotsnik is also a bad idea really ... unless you want your 350+ pt deathstar unit chasing a land speeder all game

C'mon, man! You can't tell me you don't enjoy a rousing game of "Falcon Tag" every once and awhile.

DaR wrote:
The wound allocation shenanigans are a bit of mixed blessing. You can get 3 groups out of MANz, versus 10 out of regular Nobz. That means in a maximum sized squad that wounds number 4, 5, 6, and 10 potentially reduce your attacks less for Nobz than MegaNobz. But by comparison, wounds 11, 15, 16 and 17 affect MANz attacks less than Nobz. Nobz will stay stronger to start, but will lose their strength faster at the end.

Wow, this is some great analysis.

What? nobz dont lose a single attack until youve done 11 wounds ... Whereas manz drop like flies every 2 wounds 4 if you give them a diff combi lol, but 6 wounds isnt hard to do to t4 without an invul, vs 11 wounds with 5+ invul and fnp.

Valdrad; you are comparing the Cost of a 5 man(well, Ork) unit to a 6 man unit; this is your first mistake.

The second is how you are apparently equipping your Diversified nobz

For the 5 man Nobz:
1 T-l Shoota, Power Klaw, Eavy Armor, Cybork
1 Kombi-Scorcha, Power Klaw, Eavy Armor, Cybork
1 T-l Shoota, Power Klaw, Eavy Armor, Cybork, Waagh Banner
1 Kombi-Scorcha, Power Klaw, Eavy Armor, Cybork, Boss Pole
1 Painboy
=310 points, just over 1/5 your Army Total for a Dead hard, quite Killy possible Troops choice(assuming you are also taking a PK, Cybork, Eavy Armored, Attack Squig Warboss) Who can also give you access to a Battlewagon(obviously for more Points to your total)

For 100 more points you get this... (armed with either Cyber or Eavy armor)
Dash's Nobz
1. Pain Boy
2. Waaaugh! Banner
3. Bosspole
4. Powerklaw
5. Powerklaw + Kombi-Rokkit
6. Powerklaw + Kombi-Skorcha
7. Big Choppa
8. Big choppa + Kombi-Rokkit
9. Big Choppa + Kombi-skorcha
10. Normal Nob

Manz in groups of 3, unique equipped are really good to kill scoring units without powerweapons, to take out vehicles or hold/deny objectives.
For 130 pts they really arent worth much attension from your opponent, and if they do get much attension, that isent bad either

Meganobz are only comparable/better in the tiny size (3 man groups). After that, Nobz are much better:

More survivable (cybork bodies, FNP, wound allocation to minimize model loss/instant death)
More options (Waaagh banner, painboy, cybork bodies, big choppas still nasty against vehicles, biker option)
Bosspoles without having to have a IC attached
No slow and purposeful disadvantages
Entire unit doesn't swing last and having all power klaws is often overkill

Nobz are just more effective if for nothing else the FnP that they can get from the Painboy upgrade. As well as the Waagh banner.

kill dem stunties wrote:10 meganobz = 1 dies every 2 wounds.
10 diversely equipped nobz = one dies every 11 wounds.

kill dem stunties wrote:What? nobz dont lose a single attack until youve done 11 wounds ... Whereas manz drop like flies every 2 wounds 4 if you give them a diff combi lol, but 6 wounds isnt hard to do to t4 without an invul, vs 11 wounds with 5+ invul and fnp.

Correct. Sort of. For the first 11 wounds, you are correct. You lose one MANz every 2,4, or 6 wounds (depending on if you took kombis) and don't lose any Nobz.

However, once you've done 11 wounds, every single wound thereafter causes you to lose a Nob and attacks. MANz continue to only lose attacks at their slower rate.

The analysis works like this (I actually goofed up in my first post, taking wounds from the wrong 'end' of the squad, same effects just changes the offsets slightly):

First 3 wounds = Neither Nobz nor MANZ lose attacks.
Wound 4, 5, 6 = MANZ lose attacks.
Wound 7, 8, 9 = Neither group lose attacks.
Wound 10 = MANz lose attacks.
Wound 11, 12 = Both lose attacks.
Wound 13, 14, 15 = Nobz lose attacks.
Wound 16, 17, 18 = Both lose attacks.
Wound 19 = Nobz lose attacks.
Wound 20 = Both lose attacks.

Of course, all of this assumes that there are no ID attacks involved. Mixing in S8 hits make it near impossible to accurately model which group has more wounds at which point.

One thing to consider is that it's somewhat better to be strong late game than early game. It's harder to generate a morale test on MANz, since they'll have models without wounds on them once the squad is down to only 3 or 4 members. A Nobz squad down to 3 or 4 members will much more likely have a wound on each, and thus be forced to take a Ld test for losing a model. And once a Nobz squad starts making Ld Tests, they'll never recover if they break, while a bad dice roll on an early Ld failure for MANz at least may be recoverable.


As for taking wounds in the first place, here's the breakdown of percentages of wounds saved:
Weapon MANz 'eavy Cybork Both not-S8, AP5+ 83% 75% 66% 75% S8, AP5+ 83% 50% 33% 50% not-S8, AP3-4 83% 0% 66% 66% S8, AP3-4 83% 0% 33% 33% AP1-2 0% 0% 33% 33%

MANz are better at every category except AP2/AP1/rending/power wounds. In particular, unless you have at least cybork, things like Heavy Bolters and Autocannons become very good at killing Nobz, and without 'eavy armor, regular weapons do wounds to Nobz twice as often as they do MANz. Battlecannons and Missiles/Rokkits are also things which kill Nobz at much greater rate than MANz.

If we combine these two sets of facts, here are some tables to show what happens in some typical 'under fire' situations.

We'll use Dash's Nob setup (3 BC, 3 PK, 3 regular and the painboy) with both 'eavy armor and Cybork and look at how many wounds it takes to start losing models and how many attacks the squad outputs at these levels.

Dash's unit costs 460 with both 'eavy armor and cybork. MANz with 3 of each Kombi type costs 430.

First, let's look at all the wounds being 'normal', ie not AP4 or better, so MANz get their 2+ save and Nobz get their 4+ and FNP.

Nobz attacks are listed as Power Klaw/Big Choppa/Regular. MANz Attacks are all PK, obviously. When taking casualties for the Nobz, we'll start losing normal nobz, then BC equiped nobz, then PK nobz, then the painboy just before the final PK nob (in order to maximize FNP)

Nobz Manz Wounds Dead Attacks Dead Attacks 15 0 9/9/15 0 30 25 0 9/9/15 1 27 30 0 9/9/15 2 24 40 0 9/9/15 3 21 50 2 9/9/7 3 21 60 5 9/3/3 4 18 70 7 6/0/3 5 15 80 10 0 6 12 90 10 0 6 12 100 10 0 7 9 110 10 0 9 3 120 10 0 10 0

So against any attacks which are not AP2 or better, MANz will live about 50% longer than Nobz will. They will lose some attacks earlier, but since every MANz has a powerklaw, they'll continue to have more klaw attacks at every instance. Due to this, assuming your opponent is T4, the MANz will do more wounds consistently from 10 to 0 members left. Nobz may do slightly better against opponents with bad armor (6+ or worse) and WS4, due to the Waagh banner, but that is irrelevant if the opponent is WS3 or if they have 5+ or better armor.

To be fair 'normal' wounds are the best case for MANz. Here's the best case for Nobz, assuming you don't have Grotsnik in the army. Dealing with nothing but Plasma/Power weapon attacks:

Nobz Manz Wounds Dead Attacks Dead Attacks 5 0 9/9/15 2 24 10 0 9/9/15 5 15 15 0 9/9/15 6 12 20 3 9/9/3 10 0 25 6 9/0/3 10 0 30 10 0 10 0

At this point, Nobz pull ahead against even 4+ armor after only 15 wounds, and last about 50% longer. Crappy for both units, though more crappy for MANz. Bring Boyz. For half the cost, a 30 Boyz squad will last just as long as the fully kitted out Nobz.


Here's a more realistic mix for melee. We'll assume every 5th wound is from a non-S8 rend or power weapon. Something like an MEq or Eldar squad with a power weapon equipped character in it should generate this.
Nobz Manz Wounds Dead Attacks Dead Attacks 4+1 0 9/9/15 0 30 8+2 0 9/9/15 0 30 12+3 0 9/9/15 2 24 16+4 0 9/9/15 3 21 20+5 0 9/9/15 3 21 24+6 0 9/9/15 4 18 28+7 1 9/9/11 5 15 32+8 3 9/9/3 6 12 36+9 5 9/3/3 6 12 40+10 6 9/0/3 7 9 44+11 8 3/0/3 9 3 48+12 10 0 10 0

Against this mix, both units expire pretty much exactly at the same time. The wound rate is closer, but MANz will still outwound at very level, unless the opponent is both armor 6+ or - and WS4.

Here's a an anti-troop shooting oriented mix. A mixtures of Bolters and Heavy Bolters + Autocannon hits. Nothing S8, so FNP is active, but 2 out of every 5 shots will be AP4, thus ignoring the Nobz 'eavy Armor. This is also what the "normal" wound table looks like if you don't take 'eavy armor in addition to cybork.

Nobz Manz Wounds Dead Attacks Dead Attacks 3+2 0 9/9/15 0 30 6+4 0 9/9/15 0 30 9+6 0 9/9/15 0 30 12+8 0 9/9/15 0 30 15+10 0 9/9/15 1 27 18+12 0 9/9/15 2 24 21+14 0 9/9/15 2 24 24+16 1 9/9/11 3 21 27+18 2 9/9/7 3 21 30+20 4 9/6/3 3 21 33+22 5 9/3/3 3 21 36+24 7 6/0/3 4 18 39+26 8 3/0/3 4 18 42+28 9 3/0/3 5 15 45+30 10 0 6 12 ... 54+36 10 0 6 12 ... 66+44 10 0 9 3 ... 72+48 10 0 10 0

The Nob squad dies somewhere around 45 bolter plus 30 heavy bolter/autocannon wounds inflicted. The MANz squad survives to 120 combined wounds, more than half again as many. And as with the all regular hit attacks, they do more damage with their klaws against anything but WS4 and 6+ or No armor opponents at every level.

Finally, let's add in some S8 love. This is the melee mix again, but instead of just power weapons, we're dealing with an embedded Powerfist/Klaw, so any failed saves are causing ID. This is also approximately what we see if something like multiple Tac Squad (bolters + melta/MM) were shooting at the squads. In all cases, we'll assume that if possible on the Nobz squad, we'll use wound allocation to take the S8 on models already wounded, so we don't lose 2 wounds instead of just 1.

Nobz Manz Wounds Dead Attacks Dead Attacks 4+1 0 9/9/15 1 27 8+2 1 9/9/11 2 24 12+3 2 9/9/7 3 21 16+4 2 9/9/7 4 18 20+5 3 9/9/3 5 15 24+6 4 9/6/3 7 9 28+7 4 9/6/3 8 6 32+8 5 9/3/3 10 0 36+9 6 9/0/3 10 0 40+10 8 3/0/3 10 0 44+11 10 0 10 0

Being able to stack the S8 wounds back onto wounded models is a pretty big advantage, though the MANz do keep up in return wounds until roughly the 20+5 point, at which point they take a double up on both ID and running out of wound allocation groups.

Conclusion?

MANz are vastly more survivable against anything without a power weapon. If you don't have Mad Doc Grotsnik in the army to give MANz access to cybork, Nobz with cybork + 'eavy armor are moderately more resilient to any units which generate more than approximately 1 wound in every 5 as being AP2 or power/rending. However, even then, MANz will frequently do more damage before they die, simply due to the fact that all their attacks are S8/S9 powerklaw. The MANz are slower on the ground (averaging about 4.5 inches per phase, versus the nobz 6 in clear going), but if you're in any sort of transport for the first turn or two, you probably don't care so much. MANz are also cheaper, even to get maximum possible allocation.

Note that most MEq armies cannot easily get above 1:5 for armor-ignoring weapons (1 or 2 shooting and 1 melee weapon per 10 man squad), nor can Eldar (though the squad that do are usually 1:1 like Banshees and Dragons) or Orks (1:1 for MANz, Burnas, and maybe Nobz, but usually between 1:10 and 1:30 for Boyz and most shooting units). Demons can, if they go Khorne or Slaanesh heavy. IG can, if they load up on Meltas, Vendettas, or artillery/tanks and go light on bubblewrap squads.

Generally, I'd be more likely to take Grotsnik and give my MANz Cybork than to field Nobz squads. If I did field Nobz, it would only be if I were going a full 10 strong in a Battlewagon, and probably only if I knew I were up against an army where powerklaws were not necessary (horde Nids, horde IG, Orks), or if I knew the scenario would severely punish MANz for being Slow and Purposeful.

Also as a note, rather than Dash's config, if you want to get the absolute maximum out of your Nob squad, here's my suggested config:

1. PK + Waagh Banner.
2. Painboy.
3. PK + Bosspole.
4. PK
5. Big Choppa + Kombi Skorcha
6. Big Choppa + Kombi Rokkit
7. Big Choppa
8. Bosspole
9. Kombi Skorcha.
10. Normal Nob.

By stacking your Waagh Banner and one of the Bosspoles on the PKs, you are less likely to lose those critical pieces of wargear early, since you'll avoid allocating hits to the PKs until the last possible moment anyhow. You give up a net of 1 S4/S5 attack versus Dash's config, but not having to choose between losing a Waagh Banner or Bosspole and a PK is worth it, in my book. Allocate the wounds from the bottom of the list up, and you should have your most important models live the longest.

Thank you DaR for taking the time to do all that work. By doing some very rough math in my head, and just by what my gut was telling me, that was the general feeling I had from Manz and Nobz.

Which is why I posted this, because I did not understand why so many people seem to hate Manz when they are actually more effective and cheaper in a lot of cases.

But now I get it. It's mostly the lack of an invulnerable save, which can be a serious issue in a lot of common battlefield situations.

It's nice to see my instincts backed up with hard numbers though.

That's true. Though, as I said, unless you're commonly going up against armies where there is a greater than normal number of power weapons, MANz are still more efficient killy than Nobz.

DE, Khorne Demons, IG, and MC-heavy Nids are really the only armies I'd consider Nobz over MANz on a regular basis. And in the case of Big Bugs and IG, I'd rather invest in Grotsnik and Cybork for the MANz, as PKs are much better MC and Vehicle killers than even Bigchoppas, let alone slugga+choppa Nobz.