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Hi all,

I was playing a game yesterday against my friend and something interesting came up. I was using Eldrad in an Eldar army and he was using Tyranids with Zoanthropes. Eldrad has Spirit Stones which state in the codex that for psychic powers he rolls 3d6 and discards the highest result, but the Tyranid Shadow in the Warp rule says that everyone takes psychic tests on 3d6 without discarding anything. I'm curious as to which rule would take precedence. Me and my friend resolved it that Eldrads would take precedece because his states that he discards the highest so even though Shadow in the Warp would make him take it on 3d6 he still would discard the highest.

I'm curious if anyone knows which one takes precedence or if this has been FAQed.

It's in the Eldar FAQ, he roles 2D6.

ChainswordHeretic wrote:It's in the Eldar FAQ, he roles 2D6.

The Eldar FAQ actually is talking about the 4th edition rule, not the 5th edition rule.

RaW, the game breaks.

Thats how i would have answered it before the tyranids faq came out and didnt address the issue.

The eldar faq just says runes of witnessing neutralize shadow in the warp, so much like how older codexes dont still get to play by the rules of when they were written, theyre stuck with the eldar faq ruling imh.

RaW only the Tyrants SitW is covered in the Eldar FAQ. Honestly to save time and headache it's best to just use the Eldar FAQ for all SitW and have them cancel each other out.

Then again the situation shouldn't occur often since SitW doesn't effect embarked Farseers *eyroll*

BlueDagger wrote:RaW only the Tyrants SitW is covered in the Eldar FAQ. Honestly to save time and headache it's best to just use the Eldar FAQ for all SitW and have them cancel each other out.

Then again the situation shouldn't occur often since SitW doesn't effect embarked Farseers *eyroll*

Teh Metal Bawkes, they are t3h Powerful!

its one of those things you will have to house rule it for...although the eldar faq does cover shadow in the warp it only applies to the one the hive tyrant produces...if its from another unit you will, like i said, have to house rule it or expand the eldar faq to apply to all shadow in the warp produced by units other than the hive tyrant

i personally think they should have added it to the new tyranid faq, or at least update the eldar faq

Gwar! wrote:

ChainswordHeretic wrote:It's in the Eldar FAQ, he roles 2D6.

The Eldar FAQ actually is talking about the 4th edition rule, not the 5th edition rule.

RaW, the game breaks.

As helpful/funny as you think that may be when you say that Gwar! you have absolutely no point posting that.

Jaon wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

ChainswordHeretic wrote:It's in the Eldar FAQ, he roles 2D6.

The Eldar FAQ actually is talking about the 4th edition rule, not the 5th edition rule.

RaW, the game breaks.

As helpful/funny as you think that may be when you say that Gwar! you have absolutely no point posting that.

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Your post is 100% more helpful.

The game does break, since it doesn't go either way. Hence, he posts it whenever an unclear situation comes up...

Anyhoo~

I usually just have it as roll 2d6. Makes the most sense.

Jaon wrote:As helpful/funny as you think that may be when you say that Gwar! you have absolutely no point posting that.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out where the rules fail to cover a situation. Let's keep to the topic, not the poster, folks.

It is one of those cases where it would be nice if GW would be a bit clearer about how they see things.

It could be that they think the eldar faq still covers the situation fine so there is no need to make any updates...the old "its obvious syndrome" that GW seesm to fall back on at times.

It could be that GW simply didnt consider the problem so didnt even think to post a faq since there were more (many many more) pressing issues with the nids.

It could be that they think "what? People still play eldar? But we have all these cool new imperial army lists..."



Sliggoth

I forget where this came up, but they can both work. [Applying the same impact as dueling Runes of Witnessing]

Eldrad rolls 3D6: add the lowest 2 to see if the power works then add all three to see if perils happens. If perils has already happened due to 2-1's then he only suffers one attack.

Homer

P.S. Or, just use the cancellation as the power is named the same even though the rules changed.

Or, as stated above, just keep Eldrad in a little metal box on wheels (hover cushion?) and laugh at Tyranid 'psyker defense'.

Minor point: Spirit Stones allow him to cast a second psychic power, it's the Runes of Warding that has him roll 3D6 and discard the highest.

Now, rules as written, can be interpreted as the two being fully compatible. Both require you to take the test on 3D6, but Runes of Warding tell you to discard the highest of the three.

Mahtamori wrote:Both require you to take the test on 3D6, but Runes of Warding tell you to discard the highest of the three.

At which point you are breaking the SitW rule, which requires you to take the test on 3D6 (that is, use the total result).

Ok so we've had a few arguments and I'm just trying to see where this has gone. What have we decided is the final verdict on all this? Does he roll 3d6 and then use it as normal or does he roll 2d6 or does he do as Homer S said and roll 2d6 then roll a 3rd d6 to find out if perils happens.

Side note: Sorry about the Spirit Stones thing I forgot its Runes of Warding not Spirit Stones (I don't know if you can tell I don't play Eldar too often!)

well there are mixed thoughts posted on this topic here...but i would have to say talk about it with your opponent and see what you two can come up with and house rule it. other than that i would have to agree with Gwar as the system breaks when you try to deal with them. as for a tournament setting talk with the event judge and see what they say about it. also check the eldar faq in the rare event the shadow is coming from the tyrant

Sanguinis wrote:Ok so we've had a few arguments and I'm just trying to see where this has gone. What have we decided is the final verdict on all this? Does he roll 3d6 and then use it as normal or does he roll 2d6 or does he do as Homer S said and roll 2d6 then roll a 3rd d6 to find out if perils happens.

Side note: Sorry about the Spirit Stones thing I forgot its Runes of Warding not Spirit Stones (I don't know if you can tell I don't play Eldar too often!)

To be clear, if you choose to apply both rules then roll the 3d6: lowest 2 for pass/fail, all three for perils.

I'm curious, why do people (read Gwar) feel that the Eldar FAQ no longer applies? The name of the power remains the same even if the rule has changed. Is it because the FAQ specifically mentions Hive Tyrants?

Homer

Homer S wrote:I'm curious, why do people (read Gwar) feel that the Eldar FAQ no longer applies?

For the same reason the Old Tyranid Codex doesn't apply.

The FAQ is for the 4th edition rule. The 5th edition rule is different, even though it has a similar name.

Homer S, but by taking only 2 dice for Pass/Fail, you are breaking the SitW rule which forces you to take all 3 dice for Pass/fail.

When this came out the closest answer mathematically was roll 4D6, remove the lowest.

This gives you a lower chance of success than with straight 3D6 remove the lowest (thus SitW has had an effect) and a higher chance of success than straight 2D6 (thus Runes has had an effect as well) sitting roughly in the middle.

Gwar!, the rules don't break because the rules for Shadow in the Warp doesn't specify that you must use the result of all three dice, specifically, to see whether you pass the test or not - it only specifies that you rolle 3D6 and that a result of the 3D6 above 12 causes perils of the warp. You only get a lesser suspension in that Rune of Warding specifically asks you to use the two lowest rolled, but since it doesn't mention perils in the warp, there is an inherent design flaw in Rune of Warding which doesn't require competition with Runes of Warding / SitW to show itself. "I rolled 2, 6, 6 - do I suffer peril in the wap?"
Had SitW specified, which in most casts would be completely extraneous, that "if the total rolled is above the unit's leadership value, the psychic power will fail" we'd be in a different situation.

The Eldar FAQ apply, but it was written in 2008 and the new Tyranid codex was produced after that. Just so we don't confuse things and think the Eldar FAQ in general doesn't apply as a rules helper.

Just ignore the FAQ about Shadow in the Warp and use the FAQ for Rune of Warding against Rune of Witnessing, since Rune of Warding has exactly the same effect as Shadow in the Warp. Just like Homer S wrote.

"Taking the test on 3D6" requires that you take the test, i.e. adding the dice up and comparing to leadership. If you do not take the test on 3D6 you have broken the rules for SitW.

You cannot claim to have taken the test, i.e. comparing the total to your leadership, on 3d6 if in fact you have only used two.

Mahtamori wrote:Gwar!, the rules don't break because the rules for Shadow in the Warp doesn't specify that you must use the result of all three dice, specifically, to see whether you pass the test or not - it only specifies that you rolle 3D6 and that a result of the 3D6 above 12 causes perils of the warp.

Shadow in the Warp does not do this.

Mahtamori, please read the codex before making statements like that. What you think SitW does is nowhere close to what SitW actually does.

Gwar! wrote:Mahtamori, please read the codex before making statements like that. What you think SitW does is nowhere close to what SitW actually does.

Bah! Misremembered the last portion, it's a bit more forgiving regarding peril than the Eldar rune. I still don't see how two items which pose the same requirement, while the last item adds a further modification breaks the rule set. It does present an awkward clash, but that's about it.

Gwar! wrote:

Homer S wrote:I'm curious, why do people (read Gwar) feel that the Eldar FAQ no longer applies?

For the same reason the Old Tyranid Codex doesn't apply.

The FAQ is for the 4th edition rule. The 5th edition rule is different, even though it has a similar name.

Homer S, but by taking only 2 dice for Pass/Fail, you are breaking the SitW rule which forces you to take all 3 dice for Pass/fail.

Of course the 4th edition Codex is superseded, there is now a 5th edition Codex. The FAQ has not been revised, nor is it likely to be, but that is a whole different issue. The FAQ as written can still apply since the rule it describes has the same name between editions. Why should the FAQ cease to apply because the wording of the rule text has changed? Not to imply that it should, but the argument seems weak to me.

On the 2 v. 3 dice, that is exactly how the interaction between the clashing runes is handled, each violating the rules of the other. Seems like both sides get some benefit and some loss in doing it this way:

Eldar: More likely to get the power off, but more likely to lose a wound.
Tyranid: More likely to cause a wound, but more likely to suffer the power's effects.

Sounds fair to me!

Homer

Lost me on that one homer... to keep this straight for folks there is two eldar runes

Runes of Warding - hinders enemies. 3D6 suffer perils on 12 or higher, so you still fail the power at ldr 10 with a roll of 11 or higher. Heavily arguable that double 1s and double 6s still cause perils as well.

Runes of Witnessing - protects farseer. Roll 3D6 take the 2 lowest.

When mixing with SitW RAW you get a dice rolling act of rolling four dice dropping the highest etc.

Easier to play as canceling each other out

BlueDagger wrote:When mixing with SitW RAW you get a dice rolling act of rolling four dice dropping the highest etc.

No, you don't. Neither of the rules say to Add one dice or to roll 4D6, so you don't.

4d6 discard the highest is truest to both rules. 2d6 strongly favours the Eldar player but follows the FAQ which granted wasn't talkng about this rule but another of the same name...

3d6 ignore the highest but use all 3 for determining shadows effectively entirely ignores the SitW rule as the Shadows rule does not have a significant effect on your chance of perils (unlike Warding for instance), it is just supposed to make casting harder which is the part you're ignoring...

So ignoring the game breaking possibility the fairest result is 4d6 discard the highest, the easiest is just take it on 2d6. I'd advise you agree with your opponent before hand. Or just agree that the Farseer stays in the Wave Serpent and laughs...

I'm all for staying in the Wave Serpent!

I think the Perils v. casting difficulty is a "fluff" argument. If it helps in this case, the Peril around Tyranids is not from a warp entity but from straining too hard and burning out part of the psyker's brain.

Homer