Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So i don't have my codexs with me (a friend borrowing my CSM and SM codex.) but i remember CSM Dev squads can have AC, but if i remember correctly SM Dev squads cannot. why is this so? since IG have autocannons (tons) and SM tanks have them, why cant SM carry them around?

iwas wondering if anyone had any idea?

thanks!
-sageheart

Because they aren't cool enough for Space Marines (or rather, the other way around).

SM dreads can use them. Maybe they horde them all and the devs get hand-me-down multi-meltas.

The same reason they can't carry Heavy Flamers.
Just take some Predators if you're hard up for Autocannons, though I find that Missile Launchers do the job just fine.

Dunno. CSM can barely even take plasma cannons (only dreads and devs get them,IIRC) and you guys can slap them on anything

That is strange though.

i mean i don't have an issue with gaming with them, you can have a great many AC in a SM army i just dont see why in fluff terms SM cant use them. they even have GL but dont have AC for footsoldiers.

the plasma cannon for CSM is also odd as well. i would think they should be able to get just as many as SM.

It might come down to something as simple as carrying enough ammunition to make it worthwhile. An autocannon is a fairly large caliber weapon, it also fires fairly fast. Im not sure even a SM could carry enough ammunition for the weapon to make it worth while.

Catyrpelius wrote:It might come down to something as simple as carrying enough ammunition to make it worthwhile. An autocannon is a fairly large caliber weapon, it also fires fairly fast. Im not sure even a SM could carry enough ammunition for the weapon to make it worth while.

This.

Space marines are rapid assault troops. The only heavy weapons they carry are those that are man-portable and that they can carry enough ammo for.

Why then can chaos marines use them? Partially because of their lack of plasma weaponry. For the most part Chaos marines have to scavenge their weapons, often from guard units, and auto cannons are fairly common.

Why don't they get plasma? One of the main plot points for CSM is their difficulty in getting supplies, which is why they don't have many of the advanced weapon and vehicle choices of vanilla marines. Plasma weaponry is advanced, delicate, and difficult to replace. Basically it has to be created on specialized forge worlds, and CSM just don't have the same forgeworld access regular marines do.

Catyrpelius wrote:It might come down to something as simple as carrying enough ammunition to make it worthwhile. An autocannon is a fairly large caliber weapon, it also fires fairly fast. Im not sure even a SM could carry enough ammunition for the weapon to make it worth while.

Autocannon is Heavy 2, I believe, and Heavy Bolter is Heavy 3. Both use large caliber rounds.

A autocannon is also strength 7, while a heavy bolter is strength 5.

A heavy bolter is a larger variant of the normal bolter whereas a autocannon is well a cannon. They operate in completly different ways.

I just don't think Marines NEED the autocannon in most situations. Think about how they're ideally deployed. Drop in, kill everything that moves, and get the hell out of there. Melta weaponry is suitable for this. So is plasma weaponry. And missiles are adaptable, so they're also suitable for it.

But an autocannon is a weapon more intended for the front lines. Where Marines are at a disadvantage.

i feel the idea with ammo doesnt make sense due to the HB since that fires more rounds and thou an autocannon is stronger you have to carry a ton of rounds for a HB, but maybe those rounds are smaller?

the plasma cannon being rare is a good reason for CSM not to have it, at the same time shouldnt plasma guns and pistols also be hard for CSM as well as meltas?

Melissia, you response makes the most sense so far, since autocannons are deployed with tanks and dreds that are more front line weaponry than the typical SM tac squad.

It's old Tech.

xxmatt85 wrote:It's old Tech.

This. Autocannons are old tech that csms still use but the loyalists have stopped using due to having better tech available. Just like the combi-bolter>stormbolter or havoc missile>cyclone missile

Its also cause it helps set CSM apart for the rest of the SM forces. We have more access to autocannons and the reaper autocannon. You guys get everything else. Multi melta,plasma cannon, drop pods, ass cannons,TH and SS. Whirlwinds razorbacks, All those LR variants...oh we have the defiler to. That balances everything out right??....>.>


But as for fluff an autocannon is nothing more then a big gun. Which is much much easier to care for then a plasma cannon.

Melissia wrote:I just don't think Marines NEED the autocannon in most situations. Think about how they're ideally deployed. Drop in, kill everything that moves, and get the hell out of there. Melta weaponry is suitable for this. So is plasma weaponry. And missiles are adaptable, so they're also suitable for it.

But an autocannon is a weapon more intended for the front lines. Where Marines are at a disadvantage.

This is a MUCH better answer than this:

Melissia wrote:Because they aren't cool enough for Space Marines (or rather, the other way around).

So, go with the first one, and you're probably more than half way there!

Alpharius wrote:

Melissia wrote:I just don't think Marines NEED the autocannon in most situations. Think about how they're ideally deployed. Drop in, kill everything that moves, and get the hell out of there. Melta weaponry is suitable for this. So is plasma weaponry. And missiles are adaptable, so they're also suitable for it.

But an autocannon is a weapon more intended for the front lines. Where Marines are at a disadvantage.

This is a MUCH better answer than this:

Melissia wrote:Because they aren't cool enough for Space Marines (or rather, the other way around).

So, go with the first one, and you're probably more than half way there!

but where's the signature, sarcastic cynicism?

So I can't have multiple answers to the same question...?

Well anyway... back on-topic..


I think it's the same reason SMs don't have multi-lasers (ignoring Goto). An autocannon is just too "ordinary" for Marines, it's not "extreme" enough. Multi-lasers aren't an option because they think heavy bolters are "cooler" than multi-lasers and the two options are slightly redundant.

....well I think autocannons and multi-lasers are cool :(

So do I, but I don't make decisions for GW...

I don't think it is the fact that autocannons are too 'ordinary'.

I fairly sure that there isn't a 'cool factor' in the Codex Astartes.

Clearly, GW thinks that having them in squads would disrupt game balance, maybe?

A Devastator Squad with 4 of them would be nice.

Maybe too nice!

I don't think they'd disrupt balance as much as, say, an Imperial Guard platoon with multiple cheap autocannons in it (which currently tends to tear transports apart like nobody's business). Even if you let Marines have autocannons, they'd still not be able to do as much damage as IG with them.

I would agree that ACs are probably a sub-optimal choice for SM, given the other goodies they can take. Which, in a way, makes it all the more strange that GW didn't include them as an option .

From a fluff perspective, I do think the technical complexity might have something to do with it. IG doesn't get plasma cannons for their HW teams, for example. One might well imagine that a SM is better trained to handle and care for more complex weaponry.

Melissia wrote:I don't think they'd disrupt balance as much as, say, an Imperial Guard platoon with multiple cheap autocannons in it (which currently tends to tear transports apart like nobody's business). Even if you let Marines have autocannons, they'd still not be able to do as much damage as IG with them.

How do you figure? Space Marines can shoot better and you get 4 in a squad.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:I don't think they'd disrupt balance as much as, say, an Imperial Guard platoon with multiple cheap autocannons in it (which currently tends to tear transports apart like nobody's business). Even if you let Marines have autocannons, they'd still not be able to do as much damage as IG with them.

How do you figure? Space Marines can shoot better and you get 4 in a squad.

I'm pretty sure you can get enough extra in guard armies to counter the extra BS for the maximum of 12 a Marine army could have.

People sure seem to enjoy their "Rifleman" Dreads though...

Because the rules say so?

Yes, they do?

Not sure what you're on about...

So, anyway.

I'm guessing SM troops don't get Autocannons due to either 'game balance' or "theme" issues!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:How do you figure? Space Marines can shoot better and you get 4 in a squad.

For the same price as you pay for 3 dev squads with four autocannons each (no extra ablative wounds), Guard can have 6 heavy weapons squads with three autocannons each.

So that's 8 shots at 3 separate targets for the Marines (on average, 6 hitting, so basically 3 destroyed transports on turn one). Or 6 shots at 6 separate targets for the Guard (on average, 3 hitting, which is a pretty good chance to destroy six separate transports on turn one). Oh, and the heavy weapons squads are scoring AND benefit from Orders, and with cover saves they aren't that much less survivable against shooting with more than double the wound count. Sure, the Marines get a Signum, but I don't think that's as good as certain Orders-- and with a Lord Commissar they won't run either.

i def think IG dont have plasma cannons cuz they are prob too complex for them to use, so it makes sense to me that SM would be maxing out on them.

AC may not be very useable for behind the scenes fighting that SM tend to do, and this seems to make the most sense to me, but at the same time LC don't seem to be very useable in that situation as well but SM can field tons of them as well.