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This tank is basically for anyone to use if they want to field Mareus Calgar in thier army. The background fluff for those of you who like that sort of thing is that many years ago Marneus Calgar ordered the tech adepts of Ultramar to produce for him the ultimate battle tank to trasport him into battle. The tech priests scrached thier augmented heads and came up with this: The Emporer's wrath battle tank, For modeling purposes this is a varient of the shadowsword tank, but with the addition of the demolisher cannon from the baneblade tank. This varient also adds four additional side sponsons for a total of three side sponsons on each side of the tank, The heavy bolters included in the front two side sponsons are replaced with heavy flamers. I've tweaked some of the weapon and armor values so as not to make this tank completely unfair to field.

BS___ front side rear
5____ 14__ 14__ 14

no structure points for this tank.

transport capacity: 12 models, models with terminator armor counts as 2 models

Weapons______ Range____ Str___AP________Type
Volcano cannon____60"_____10____1______ Heavy 1, Blast
Demolisher cannon_48"_____10____2______ Ord. 1, Barrage
Heavy flamer____Temp_____5_____4________ Assault 1
Lascannon________48"_____9_____2_________Heavy 1
Twin-linked Heavy Bolter 36"_5_____4_________Heavy 3
Multimelta_________24"_____8_____1_________Heavy 1, Melta

Special rules:

Blessed hull of the imperium
The hull of this behemoth is comprised from the absolute hardest materials in all the galaxy, Then thrice blessed with sacred oils and insence. Therefore rendering the armor of this tank virtually impregnable. The tank is of such stable design, that it cannot be instantly removed from the table, turned into a wreck, or receive higher than a 5 on the Vehicle Damage chart.

Calgar's unrelenting honor
When Marneus himself rides into battle, he uses this tank as his personal transport. Just the sight of this mighty instrument of the Lord McCragge, inspires all other tank commanders to new levels of heroism. If Marneus Calgar is inside, this vehicle and all other allied vehicles within 12" automatically pass all difficult terrain tests.

Sight of the Lord McCragge
This tank uses the very best optics for determining distance to target and tracking abilities. When firing the Demolisher cannon, only 1D6 is used for scatter.

Iron fist of the chapter
Any enemy unit tank shocked by this overwhelming battle tank automatically takes a wound, no saving throws are allowed.

Emporer's righteous path
The sight of this tank on the battlefield totally demoralizes the enemy, and distracks them from performing thier unholt duties. All enemy units within 12" of this tank strike with an initiative value of 1 in thier assault phase.

I'm thinking of making the points cost of this unit 750 points, its obvoiusly better than a land raider, but not quite as nasty as a normal shadowsword tank (without structure points and decreased weapon ranges). As you can see I'm kinda partial to ultramarines (read my sig)

So anyway, let me know what you think of this unit. I know that the shadowsword is for apokalypse games only, but what about the possibility of fielding this unit in a regular 40K game? Let me know.

Make it cost more, but give it structure points.
-Then get rid of the "only can be glanced" rule (which essentially means that you have to glance/pen with an Ap 1 weapon to destroy it.)

Che-Vito wrote:Make it cost more, but give it structure points.

I thought about raising the points cost but didn't want it to be outragously expensive. I'm still undecided about adding stucture points. besides it does have AV14 all around which is better than the standard shadowsword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Che-Vito wrote:Make it cost more, but give it structure points.
-Then get rid of the "only can be glanced" rule (which essentially means that you have to glance/pen with an Ap 1 weapon to destroy it.)

just like the LR, roll a six on the vehicle damage chart for glancing hits and the tank is destroyed.

sub-zero wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:Make it cost more, but give it structure points.

I thought about raising the points cost but didn't want it to be outragously expensive. I'm still undecided about adding stucture points. besides it does have AV14 all around which is better than the standard shadowsword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Che-Vito wrote:Make it cost more, but give it structure points.
-Then get rid of the "only can be glanced" rule (which essentially means that you have to glance/pen with an Ap 1 weapon to destroy it.)

just like the LR, roll a six on the vehicle damage chart for glancing hits and the tank is destroyed.

Glancing hit is -2 to the vehicle damage table. Therefore, only Ap 1 weapons can wreck the vehicle.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just a little confused. The BRB says"If the total of the weapon strengh + D6 is equal to vehicle armor value this is a glancing hit" then the owner of the hit vehicle rolls a D6 and consults the vehicle damage chart, if I roll a six, then the chart says the vehicle is detroyed. Now I am kinda new at this game, only been playing for about a year and a half, so correct me if I'm wrong.

sub-zero wrote:I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just a little confused. The BRB says"If the total of the weapon strengh + D6 is equal to vehicle armor value this is a glancing hit" then the owner of the hit vehicle rolls a D6 and consults the vehicle damage chart, if I roll a six, then the chart says the vehicle is detroyed. Now I am kinda new at this game, only been playing for about a year and a half, so correct me if I'm wrong.

There are modifiers to the vehicle damage chart:

If I "Glance" your vehicle (instead of penetrating) I get -2 to the Vehicle Damage Chart

So the only way to "Wreck" your vehicle, is to roll a 6 (then subtract two for a Glancing hit) then add +1 for having an Ap1 weapon.
Thus the vehicle is destroyed.

So, things like Lascannons, couldn't ever wreck your vehicle.

Che-Vito wrote:

sub-zero wrote:I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just a little confused. The BRB says"If the total of the weapon strengh + D6 is equal to vehicle armor value this is a glancing hit" then the owner of the hit vehicle rolls a D6 and consults the vehicle damage chart, if I roll a six, then the chart says the vehicle is detroyed. Now I am kinda new at this game, only been playing for about a year and a half, so correct me if I'm wrong.

There are modifiers to the vehicle damage chart:

If I "Glance" your vehicle (instead of penetrating) I get -2 to the Vehicle Damage Chart

So the only way to "Wreck" your vehicle, is to roll a 6 (then subtract two for a Glancing hit) then add +1 for having an Ap1 weapon.
Thus the vehicle is destroyed.

So, things like Lascannons, couldn't ever wreck your vehicle.

I checked my facts after I looked in the BRB, and you sir are correct. Now, what I'm trying to achieve here is a way to damage the vehicle using the 5th ed. rules, but not end up with a "vehicle explodes" result. That would not be in fluff of the vehicle. I mean this is supposed to be the absolute best tank that the imperium of man can produce for it's most revered leader, Marneus Calgar Lord McCragge. No expense was spared in the tanks creation, so there has to be a way of taking out that result, any ideas?

sub-zero wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

sub-zero wrote:I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just a little confused. The BRB says"If the total of the weapon strengh + D6 is equal to vehicle armor value this is a glancing hit" then the owner of the hit vehicle rolls a D6 and consults the vehicle damage chart, if I roll a six, then the chart says the vehicle is detroyed. Now I am kinda new at this game, only been playing for about a year and a half, so correct me if I'm wrong.

There are modifiers to the vehicle damage chart:

If I "Glance" your vehicle (instead of penetrating) I get -2 to the Vehicle Damage Chart

So the only way to "Wreck" your vehicle, is to roll a 6 (then subtract two for a Glancing hit) then add +1 for having an Ap1 weapon.
Thus the vehicle is destroyed.

So, things like Lascannons, couldn't ever wreck your vehicle.

I checked my facts after I looked in the BRB, and you sir are correct. Now, what I'm trying to achieve here is a way to damage the vehicle using the 5th ed. rules, but not end up with a "vehicle explodes" result. That would not be in fluff of the vehicle. I mean this is supposed to be the absolute best tank that the imperium of man can produce for it's most revered leader, Marneus Calgar Lord McCragge. No expense was spared in the tanks creation, so there has to be a way of taking out that result, any ideas?

"No-Explodey: The tank is of such stable design, that it cannot be instantly removed from the table,or receive higher than a 5 on the Vehicle Damage chart"

Che-Vito wrote:

sub-zero wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

sub-zero wrote:I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just a little confused. The BRB says"If the total of the weapon strengh + D6 is equal to vehicle armor value this is a glancing hit" then the owner of the hit vehicle rolls a D6 and consults the vehicle damage chart, if I roll a six, then the chart says the vehicle is detroyed. Now I am kinda new at this game, only been playing for about a year and a half, so correct me if I'm wrong.

There are modifiers to the vehicle damage chart:

If I "Glance" your vehicle (instead of penetrating) I get -2 to the Vehicle Damage Chart

So the only way to "Wreck" your vehicle, is to roll a 6 (then subtract two for a Glancing hit) then add +1 for having an Ap1 weapon.
Thus the vehicle is destroyed.

So, things like Lascannons, couldn't ever wreck your vehicle.

I checked my facts after I looked in the BRB, and you sir are correct. Now, what I'm trying to achieve here is a way to damage the vehicle using the 5th ed. rules, but not end up with a "vehicle explodes" result. That would not be in fluff of the vehicle. I mean this is supposed to be the absolute best tank that the imperium of man can produce for it's most revered leader, Marneus Calgar Lord McCragge. No expense was spared in the tanks creation, so there has to be a way of taking out that result, any ideas?

"No-Explodey: The tank is of such stable design, that it cannot be instantly removed from the table, turned into a wreck, or receive higher than a 5 on the Vehicle Damage chart"

I love it, Thank you very much. I will be changing that rule right now. Now, what do you think about the rest of the rules, too mant, too wierd, or something you would like to suggest?

This vehicle is way over the top. There's no way you can possibly use that in a regular game of 40k. It is just too overpowering. Let's examine some of the rules:

1) 6 sponsoons - 6 lascannons, 4 twin-linked heavy bolters, 2 twin-linked heavy flamers. How the heck are the rear guns going to fire forwards? They've got sponsoons blocking their view. 4 sponsoons I can live with. 6 is just not practical on a vehicle that is just a little larger than a land raider.

2) 48" demolisher cannon? That's not a demolisher cannon at all. BTW, do you know that when you fire an ordnance barrage weapon, you cannot fire any other guns. When you fire your demolisher cannon, you cannot even fire defensive weapons. The only way this is possible is if the tank was a super-heavy tank, and thus it would require Structure Points and a points increase.

3) The "no-penetrating" rule is just too much. You cannot wreck a vehicle on the glancing table unless you roll a 6 with an AP1 gun. And there is no such thing as an invincible tank. Even titans can be destroyed. What is the reasoning why it can't explode like any other tank? Just because it was made for Calgar? I think if the Imperium had the technology to create such an armor, they would have already used it in some of their more expensive, powerful creations. But just because it's Calgar, they can ignore physics and their own "primitive" technology (compared to some alien cultures such as eldar and even necrons) and do it anyways? Highly implausible and unreasonable.

What you could do, however, is to give it Ceramite Shielding as used in the Thunderhawks. This protects it from melta weaponry, which would not get the +D6 bonus penetration against it as it would for normal armor.

4) Some of your other special rules just doesn't make any sense. Why would the sight of the Emperor's Wrath "inspire" other vehicles within 12" to automatically pass all difficult terrain tests. It's understandable that it may inspire men to re-roll morale or attack more ferociously (furious charge or maybe +1A for 1 turn), but how can seeing it make a vehicle immune a huge rock that gets caught in its wheels or that pierces its treads?

5) With so many guns on it, it shouldn't have transport room for anyone unless it was a super heavy. Just look at all the land raider variants - land raider helios (whirlwind launcher), ares (demolisher cannon) and terminus ultra (5 lascannons). These tanks just add 1-2 extra weapons and they already have no room for passengers. You're adding a huge volcano cannon, a demolisher cannon and 6 sponsoons? If you want to make it a transport as well on top of these, you need to go super-heavy.

6) Any power which forces the enemy to perform a certain action without any chance to resist is just too strong. For example, with Emperor's Righteous Path, you should give the enemy the benefit of a Leadership check (maybe at a slight penalty). If they fail, then they assault at I1. Also, for Iron Fist, instead of automatically taking a wound with no armor saves, you should give them a chance to survive. Like the Orks dethrolla, you can maybe say that the unit takes 1d6 S10 hits with armor saves allowed.


The most important thing about designing a new unit is game balance. When creating something, you have to consider if it balanced or not. If it is too strong, you need to give it some type of weakness or nerf its rules somewhat. As it is right now, it is too imbalancing and I would not let you use it in any game. I don't think many others would too unless it gets toned down.

I basically agree with jy2's comments/criticisms but would also agree that if you went super heavy that would mitigate all the points.

Do you have a model made or are you doing this backwards?

Jack

@jy2
Your post, although it has some interesting points is incorrect. The vehicle is based off a Shadowsword and not a Landraider, which is a superheavy vehicle (see link below)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat60027a&prodId=prod1860243&rootCatGameStyle=

Since the vehicle is a superheavy, it is clearly for Apoc and spearhead and thus a little more leeway is allowed when designing such a vehicle (the vehicle is also a SC as well).

jy2: WOW, thanks for the reply. This vehicle is for Apoc games, so i understand some of your critiqus. I like the idea of the ceremite armor from thunderhawks, I'll probably use that and just have to accept the fact that it CAN eventually blow up, I just don't want some lucky assed shot from a lascannon toting soldier to take out the baddest tank ever built, you know? Just doesn't seem right. Anyway to answer the poster below you, I am doing this backwards. I Love the shadowsword model and it seems to BEG for three side sponsons on either side I've seen the land raider online that was modelled for Marneus, but it's still a land raider and I just thought that such an influential characture such as Marneus Calgar would have something special for his personal battle barge. As to using this in a regular 40K game, unlikely at best. I just thought that if I dumbed down the weapon ranges, took away the structure points, and all the other special things a superheavy gets, like the option to self repair at the expense of a turn, then maybe it might be fieldable on a regular game. I mean it is a 750 point bullet magnet, you know the other army is going to fire everything but the kitchen sink at this thing. Thanks again for the comments and keep em coming.

If Marneus Calgar isn't riding a golden dreadnought into battle by the time this is finished, I'm not interested.

crazypsyko666 wrote:If Marneus Calgar isn't riding a golden dreadnought into battle by the time this is finished, I'm not interested.

OMG this post actually made me laugh out loud, that has to be one of the best posts i have ever read, serously

@Sub-Zero
1 Superheavy vehicle can be used in regular 40K via the Spearhead expansion. It counts as using a formation and the negative repercussion for fielding such a unit is that you roll the dice for pre-emptive strikes on the vehicle at the start of the match

You could probably squeeze your tank into a 2500-300 point spearhead game without hindering yourself.

Perhaps stick to the default/similar options of a shadowsword/equivalent and the point cost and just add your repair ability + the point cost for it on top of it. It should be easier to balance and use this way. Hell you could add your repair ability to a LR Crusader/Redeemer make that your fluffy custom transport

candy.man wrote:@Sub-Zero
1 Superheavy vehicle can be used in regular 40K via the Spearhead expansion. It counts as using a formation and the negative repercussion for fielding such a unit is that you roll the dice for pre-emptive strikes on the vehicle at the start of the match

You could probably squeeze your tank into a 2500-3000 point spearhead game without hindering yourself.

Perhaps stick to the default/similar options of a shadowsword/equivalent and the point cost and just add your repair ability + the point cost for it on top of it. It should be easier to balance and user this way. Hell you could add your repair ability to a LR Crusader/Redeemer make that your fluffy custom transport

I was actually not aware of the spearhead formation( wasn't interested until just this moment). In regards to using a buffed out LR, I actually would prefer to use the converted shadowsword model, it just looks so damn cool!

sub-zero wrote:
BS___ front side rear
5____ 14__ 14__ 14

No structure points for this tank.

Transport capacity: 12 models, models with terminator armour counts as 2 models

Weapons______ Range____ Str___AP________Type
Volcano cannon____60"_____10____1______ Heavy 1, Blast
Demolisher cannon_48"_____10____2______ Ord. 1, Barrage
Heavy flamer____Temp_____5_____4________ Assault 1
Lascannon________48"_____9_____2_________Heavy 1
Twin-linked Heavy Bolter 36"_5_____4_________Heavy 3
Multimelta_________24"_____8_____1_________Heavy 1, Melta

1: it needs to be classified as a super heavy to be a super heavy
2: That is not a volcano cannon due to it not having the range, str, ap or special rules of one
3: That is not a demolisher cannon due to it having a longer range.

Special rules:

Blessed hull of the Imperium
The hull of this behemoth is comprised from the absolute hardest materials in the entire galaxy and then thrice blessed with sacred oils and incense, therefore rendering the armour of this tank virtually impregnable. The tank is of such stable design, that it cannot be instantly removed from the table, turned into a wreck, or receives higher than a 5 on the Vehicle Damage chart.

IMO remove this and replace with ceramite shielding, it is a complicated rule and by RAW the tank cannot be destroyed by how I read it (Made bold)

Calgar's unrelenting honour
When Marneus himself rides into battle, he uses this tank as his personal transport. Just the sight of this mighty instrument of the Lord McCragge, inspires all other tank commanders to new levels of heroism. If Marneus Calgar is inside, this vehicle and all other allied vehicles within 12" automatically pass all difficult terrain tests.

OK, you do know this rule doesn’t work on account of vehicles taking dangerous terrain tests not difficult terrain tests

Sight of the Lord McCragge
This tank uses the very best optics for determining distance to target and tracking abilities. When firing the Demolisher cannon, only 1D6 is used for scatter.

It's OK, maybe slightly over powered because of the BS reducing the scatter leaving it to 1 or less.

Iron fist of the chapter
Any enemy unit tank shocked by this overwhelming battle tank automatically takes a wound, no saving throws are allowed.

It wasn't enough to tank shock them with a super-heavy tank, you had to kill one of them despite the fact they may have a massive force shield or some other invulnerable save causing equipment they may have. It's a super heavy tank; they'll probably run away any way.

Emperor’s righteous path
The sight of this tank on the battlefield totally demoralizes the enemy, and distracts them from performing their unholy duties. All enemy units within 12" of this tank strike with an initiative value of 1 in their assault phase.

This dosn’t make sense, if they were demoralised, why would they be slower? I think an Ld modifier would be better.

I'm thinking of making the points cost of this unit 750 points, its obviously better than a land raider, but not quite as nasty as a normal shadow sword tank (without structure points and decreased weapon ranges). As you can see I'm kinda partial to ultramarines (read my sig)

So anyway, let me know what you think of this unit. I know that the shadow sword is for apocalypse games only, but what about the possibility of fielding this unit in a regular 40K game? Let me know.

Make it a proper shadow sword, with the extra armour, ceramite shielding, proper weapons and an extra TWO sponsons {making it 4 sponsons (I agree with Jy2 on that)}, structure points, and those special rules and make it cost around 900pts (considering that the shadow sword itself is 450 points).

At the moment it is;
- A water down but better armoured/better shooting shadow sword.
- A vehicle with a few strange rules, some of which actually don't work.

What it should be;
- A pimped up shadow sword (IMO)


I have also fixed spelling and grammer when spell checking my post, don't worry, it isn't very bad.

candy.man wrote:@jy2
Your post, although it has some interesting points is incorrect. The vehicle is based off a Shadowsword and not a Landraider, which is a superheavy vehicle (see link below)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat60027a&prodId=prod1860243&rootCatGameStyle=

Since the vehicle is a superheavy, it is clearly for Apoc and spearhead and thus a little more leeway is allowed when designing such a vehicle (the vehicle is also a SC as well).

I know what a Shadowsword is. Here is mine. You can base it off the a land raider, shadowsword or warlord titan. But unless it is actually declared as the Type: Super-heavy tank or has structure points, it is not.

Making this tank a super-heavy (and you can make it a super-heavy tank with only 1 structure point if you want) would solve many (but not all) of the issues with it. Otherwise, it is just a regular tank that is a little too powerful.

sub-zero wrote:jy2: WOW, thanks for the reply. This vehicle is for Apoc games, so i understand some of your critiqus. I like the idea of the ceremite armor from thunderhawks, I'll probably use that and just have to accept the fact that it CAN eventually blow up, I just don't want some lucky assed shot from a lascannon toting soldier to take out the baddest tank ever built, you know? Just doesn't seem right.

Whether it is for Apoc games or not, it still has to be declared as a Super-heavy Tank in order to use those rules. Currently, it is not, but that is easily fixed.

As for its durability, you can be creative in that department. Some suggestions:

A) You can give it 2 structure points.

B) You can leave it a 1 structure point but also give it 1 void shield.

C) You can give it a special rule....let's say, Force Field....that gives it a 5+ Inv save against shooting attacks only.

D) Here's another special rule that I just thought up: Kinetic Shield - the Emperor's Wrath has a special force field which absorbs some of the damage of any successful shot. -1 on the damage charts for all glancing and penetrating hits from shooting attacks. This will also make explosion results far less likely unless you get hit by AP1 or destroyer guns.

sub-zero wrote:
I was actually not aware of the spearhead formation( wasn't interested until just this moment). In regards to using a buffed out LR, I actually would prefer to use the converted shadowsword model, it just looks so damn cool!

Unfortunately, spearhead is an optional ruleset just like Apoc. Your opponent has to agree to it in order for you to use it (heck, he has to agree to play it in the first place).

Thanks again guys for all the comments and suggestions. I am probably in the minority here, but my favorite part of this entire hobby is modelling, converting, and coming up with new and different weapons, tanks, armor, etc. for this game. With the addition of Apoc rules and the fact that you can create anything your imagination can come up with, that is the whole reason for starting this thread in the first place. I've heard some fantastic ideas from you all so far, and basically no flaming ( I know, wierd ), so like I said before, keep the ideas and comments coming. As a matter of fact I'm thinking about starting a new thread with the idea of Dakka members coming up with thier own original rules, equipment, armor, stats, everything for an entirlly new race or even SM chapter, Let me know what you think.

okay I got allot of things to say about this, first of all I like the concept and your dedication to modeling. Also if you want something cool in apoc take it. Balance in apoc is a relative term.



I think the problem with it, is that it is doing way to much and not enough for the point value. Also I'm wondering if this is a super heavy because if its not you have a couple of huge problems. If its a super heavy it must have structure points as they all do, the other important reason for this is because the tank will not be able to fire more than 1 gun if its moves at all unless its super heavy. Also if its not super heavy then it cannot target different units with each of its guns, which I think is a major flaw.

also, I'd look at this as a vehicle akin to the fortress of arrogance, yarick's personal baneblade. Not even that is 14/14/14

In addition you do have to many special rules associated with the tank especially since its a relatively small target for an apoc game and could easily always be in cover.

Blessed hull of the imperiam: too powerful, its just to powerful, all you need is this and a few techmarines and this tank is unkillable unless you dedicate like 20 melta guns to it. Hoe about something like combining the BT blessed hull (ignore lance) and ceramite armor (ignore melta) that would be more in line for a apoc although sicne ludiciously strong.

Calgar's unrelenting honor: A little over the top sure, but overall I think that is fine for an apoc unit.

Sight of lord mcragge: to powerful. Since the BS of the tank is a 5 it only misses 18% of the time. to powerful. Maybe something like while calgar is embarked he takes personal charge of the demo cannon enabling it to benefit from his god of war special rule. So that once he's gone it loses a little power.

Iron fist of the chapter: this makes no sense at all and isn't needed

emperor's righteous path: completely overpowered. Again tone it down to instead of an aura make it same fluff and any unit being assault by a unit coming out of the tank strikes at I 1. Auras are to powerful for something like this.

And yes this is significantly better than any single super heavy for the imperial right now. Not because of killnig power but becasue its so benefitial for the army and all the auras.

I hope this comes across as constructive and not just flaming.