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A VERY interesting article. I find even more interesting that it seems to be localized to just Japan, where it seems to be an epidemic...


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/15/magazine/15japanese.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all

it's long, here are the first few paragraphs...

One morning when he was 15, Takeshi shut the door to his bedroom, and for the next four years he did not come out. He didn't go to school. He didn't have a job. He didn't have friends. Month after month, he spent 23 hours a day in a room no bigger than a king-size mattress, where he ate dumplings, rice and other leftovers that his mother had cooked, watched TV game shows and listened to Radiohead and Nirvana. "Anything," he said, "that was dark and sounded desperate." I met Takeshi outside Tokyo not long ago, shortly after he finally left his parents' house to join a job-training program called New Start. He was wiry, with a delicate face, tousled, dyed auburn hair and the intensity of a hungry college freshman. "Don't laugh, but musicians really helped me, especially Radiohead," he told me through an interpreter, before scribbling some lyrics in English in my notebook. "That's what encouraged me to leave my room."

The night Takeshi and I met, we were at one of New Start's three-times-a-week potluck dinners at a community center where the atmosphere was like a school dorm's - a dartboard nailed to the wall over a large dining table, a worn couch and overstuffed chairs in front of a TV blaring a soccer match. About two dozen guys lounged on chairs or sat on tatami mats, slurping noodles and soup and talking movies and music. Most were in their 20's. And many had stories very much like Takeshi's.

My brother-in-law pulled a similar stunt when he was about 15, but it only lasted two years. It messed up his high school graduation a bit.

Living in Japan can be a psychotic nightmare sometimes for foreigners. I can only imagine how the societal pressures can get on a guy here who knows he is stuck pretty much cradle to grave.

I would love to hear more about the pressures for a foreigner living there...if you might....

Everything is way too small. Chairs, cars, door frames, shoes. Size 9 1/2 shoes are considered "big". Language barrier can be a bit of a hassle at times; either you don't know it or you speak it and the person you are speaking to doesn't 'believe' you're speaking it. There is a lot of institutionalized redundancy at a lot of levels. The noise in the city can get to you after a while. Announcements that the escalator is working and is going 'up' seem to be a bit extreme at times in places with half a dozen or so escalators. Going to see the doctor. Getting a haircut. Getting your driver license. Getting a phone. Renting an apartment is really expensive, not only for foreigners. Driving. Don't even get me started on that. Everyday life can be a mission.

One of the biggest things though, for me anyway, is that the Japanese are brought up to do everything together. There are always meetings, group sessions, group travel, mandatory volley ball league, etc. When you are brought up in a society to act as an individual, living in society where people must sacrifice their individualism for inter-dependence can be hard with the crossed wires of viewpoints. Personally, I think I'm a better worker by spending Saturday off, relaxing, than by going to mandatory volleyball league (that's the old lady's cross to bear at the moment)

It can be frustrating to see people forcefully attempting to perfect the impossible, knowing that it's doomed to failure just to save face with people who can also see the inevitable failure on the horizon. That is one observation I have had for a while watching people ride their work projects or other assignments into oblivion.

The general 'Western' view on living and approaching life is very different to the general 'Japanese' view. Quite often they conflict.

I had a very interesting day's instruction on cross-cultural thingum-a-jig, "Doing Business With The Japanese". It went into a lot of the background and cultural attitudes that explain why the Japanese behave like they do. We westerners also have our own cultural baggage of course.

Blah blah that only lasts until Mom kicks Jr. out.

Fly little bird fly! (or don't, I don't care just GTFO)

Exactly. Half the problem IMO is that the mothers don't kick them out.

I saw a TV programme about it once (this press report is 4 years old). The spoilt little brat at the centre of the programme just needed a good boot up the arse, instead of all his meals brought to him by waitress service while he watched TV and internet for free.

And then there's the "NEETs" (Not in Employment, Education or Training). Basically people that don't want to do anything but take in oxygen. I taught at a last-chance high school in Saitama prefecture (Ageo Shonan HS). Man, I met some real winners there; future snack bar workers, bosozoku, yamanba/ganguro girls with so much makeup and tanning...

Kilkrazy's right though; we Westerners have our own baggage, my time as a social worker taught me that. Welfare, whether institutional are familial is wrong and just rewards people that are unwilling to take responsibility for their own lives.

I guess becoming a hikikomori is the social equivalent to going pages like this (albeit in the opposite direction). As people in the west live more independant lives we join groups like this for social interaction, where as the whole group activity society in places like Japan make people want to retreat.

I find myself agreeing with Typeline here, without Hitler, some of our tech would be decades less advanced, say what you will about war, but technology takes leaps from it.

Soladrin wrote:I find myself agreeing with Typeline here, without Hitler, some of our tech would be decades less advanced, say what you will about war, but technology takes leaps from it.

uh, wrong thread bro.

Half-way through this article, and enjoying it. Thanks IG, this is very interesting.

In reality, though, most hikikomori are too trapped by inertia to leave their houses, much less plot violent schemes. Instead, they are more likely to suffer depression or obsessive-compulsive behaviors. In some cases these psychological problems lead to hikikomori. But often they are symptoms - a consequence of spending months cooped up inside their rooms and inside their heads. One hikikomori took showers several hours a day and wore gloves as thick as an astronaut's to ward off germs (he eventually joined a halfway program, threw away the gloves and got a job), while another scrubbed the tiles in his family's shower for hours at a time. "Our water bills were 10 times what they'd normally be," his brother told me. "It's as if he was trying to clean the dirt in his mind and his heart."

Very sad, too. Christ, I need to keep reading. KEEP READING!

agnosto wrote:And then there's the "NEETs" (Not in Employment, Education or Training). Basically people that don't want to do anything but take in oxygen. I taught at a last-chance high school in Saitama prefecture (Ageo Shonan HS). Man, I met some real winners there; future snack bar workers, bosozoku, yamanba/ganguro girls with so much makeup and tanning...

Hmmm... Social wash-outs in a last chance program? Who woulda freaking thought.

Kilkrazy's right though; we Westerners have our own baggage, my time as a social worker taught me that. Welfare, whether institutional are familial is wrong and just rewards people that are unwilling to take responsibility for their own lives.

I am not sure how you went from point A. to point B. here. Your interaction with some of societies worst cases seems to have left you incredibly jaded.

I agree that allowing a child to do nothing whatsoever, while providing for every need, is a generally bad idea. What I don't understand is how you go from that to concluding that all people in bad situations are better off left fending for themselves... leading to skyrocketing crime-rates, and a massive bill for tax-payers to take care of. When you leave someone with no options, they tend to make the best of their situation, causing serious pain for people that follow the rules.

Alternatively you could lobby for forced sterilization, or work camps. I dunno really, it would help if you would clarify what you mean by what you had said, instead of tying everything together in abstract statements about people being lazy and BLABLABLA.

Wrexasaur wrote:

I am not sure how you went from point A. to point B. here. Your interaction with some of societies worst cases seems to have left you incredibly jaded.

I agree that allowing a child to do nothing whatsoever, while providing for every need, is a generally bad idea. What I don't understand is how you go from that to concluding that all people in bad situations are better off left fending for themselves... leading to skyrocketing crime-rates, and a massive bill for tax-payers to take care of. When you leave someone with no options, they tend to make the best of their situation, causing serious pain for people that follow the rules.

Alternatively you could lobby for forced sterilization, or work camps. I dunno really, it would help if you would clarify what you mean by what you had said, instead of tying everything together in abstract statements about people being lazy and BLABLABLA.

I thought the comparison to a family coddling vs. a nanny-state was fairly clear. My point is that we, as Westerners, have no right to point at the families of hikikomori and say "wow, how can they do that?" when we do the same, or worse, on a national level. Whenever a family/society lowers expectations to the point where people are not expected to positively contribute to the community they live in, there will always be people that live up (down) to that lowered expectation.

agnosto wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:

I am not sure how you went from point A. to point B. here. Your interaction with some of societies worst cases seems to have left you incredibly jaded.

I agree that allowing a child to do nothing whatsoever, while providing for every need, is a generally bad idea. What I don't understand is how you go from that to concluding that all people in bad situations are better off left fending for themselves... leading to skyrocketing crime-rates, and a massive bill for tax-payers to take care of. When you leave someone with no options, they tend to make the best of their situation, causing serious pain for people that follow the rules.

Alternatively you could lobby for forced sterilization, or work camps. I dunno really, it would help if you would clarify what you mean by what you had said, instead of tying everything together in abstract statements about people being lazy and BLABLABLA.

I thought the comparison to a family coddling vs. a nanny-state was fairly clear. My point is that we, as Westerners, have no right to point at the families of hikikomori and say "wow, how can they do that?" when we do the same, or worse, on a national level. Whenever a family/society lowers expectations to the point where people are not expected to positively contribute to the community they live in, there will always be people that live up (down) to that lowered expectation.

Sure we can. Don't attribute lame teenagers to government welfare. it is far more appropriate to compare lame Japanese teenagers to lame US teenagers, both of which can eawsily be solved but kicking them out of the house.

Frazzled wins the thread.

New information.

http://shisaku.blogspot.com/2010/07/hikikomori-update-some-light-upon.html

This just in: creepy Japanese teens live at home like creepy US teens. The world grows smaller every day...

the main thing that is holding teenagers back is simply low-expectations. Im a teenager in ireland, im in a farming community where youre a child or your a man, simple. people think that we work our children too hard, by making them help with the work on the farm, but that is how it has been, my dad was working an 8 hour day by the age 12.
teenagers arnt expected to do great things, they are expected to waste money and time. even google has low expectations, type in 'teenagers and' and see.
i go to a large secondary school where the majority arnt from my community. they for the most are slackers that plan to live on irelands dole.
Most teens arnt expected to understand politics and business. I and other young men are expected to atend local Dairy meeting and cast our vote in company politics.
teens need to rebel,but no agaisnt society but agaisnt low expectations. the need a revolution, a rebulation if you will.

Modern performance management theory supports your thinking.

To get the best out of people you have to challenge them with problems which will stretch them but are possible for them to solve.

Lack of challenge, and challenges which are too difficult, both lead to low performance.

even challenges which prove impossible are good to a certain degree. they teach young poeple that they are not invincible, which judging by the devestation and death young people are causing on the road, they think they are.

There is a difference between a challenge which seems possible but isn't, and a challenge which is clearly impossible.

The second type makes the challenged person give up before they start. Also they think you are an idiot for asking them to do something that is clearly impossible.

There is an anime called Welcome to the NHK about hikikimore culture. It is a very interesting one.

Kilkrazy wrote:Modern performance management theory supports your thinking.

To get the best out of people you have to challenge them with problems which will stretch them but are possible for them to solve.

Lack of challenge, and challenges which are too difficult, both lead to low performance.

Translation: kick them out. Change the locks so they can't get back in. Its good parenting!