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Hey folks!

This past weekend I made the extreme drive to Atlanta to play in the third round of the Atlanta Circuit. I brought my Pink Waaaugh! I'd won the first two circuit events, and showed up to the third to try for a coup.

Long story short, for all intents and purposes I got three draws from three games that all had primary, secondary, and tertiary mission goals to prevent draws. =p

Game1: CMS vs Orks: We beat each other into the ground viciously. I failed KFFs, rolls, DT checks...vs. dual lash I took a beating. At the end of the game, neither of us had any troops left (so we tied objectives), we had both killed each others HQs (so we tied secondary) and we didn't meet the 200pt VP distinguisher, so we tied.

Game2: Mech Marines vs Orks: Three dual-autocannon dreads, three squadrons of two multi-melta/heavy flamer landspeeders, three dakkapreds, and las/plas razorbacks. The game consisted of me maneuvering around trying to assault him while keeping my AV14 BW front armor facing him while he backed away taking slow losses and trying to line up side armor (while deep-striking his landspeeders to my side and rear). Interestingly, the game involved rolling a D6 on turn4 to determine the mission - ours turned out to be capturing terrain pieces. With only five turns, the game ended with me owning two, him owning two, and him contesting a third I was in (an immobilized, weaponless landspeeder survived through assault with boyz). We tied primary. Neither of us killed the others' elite choices fully so we tied secondary, and I had took tertiary with a 400+ VP gap. But for all intents and purposes....a tie.

Game3: Fatecrusher Daemons with 2xDP and Skarbrand backup vs Orks. Dawn of War, I went first. Took the bottom right corner, lined up to minimize his access to rear / side armor and deep-striking options. He didn't get his preferred wave, and brought his troops into the opposite corner (my top left). Mishaped a unit of plaguebearers and I dropped them in fronnt of me. Turn2 he got all but 1x bloodcrusher and Fateweaver. He brought them in on the left side away from me. I assaulted his plaguebearers, but lost a unit of Lootas because I left them by themselves on my bottom left board corner (deployed them to get lanes of fire). Game ended three turns later with....nothing happening. He brought his whole army in on that table edge, and the game ended without a fight. I asked him if he was playing for a tie on purpose and he said that he wasn't about to let me assault him....but he didn't maneuver to assault me either, and he had no real ranged weaponry - he even backed the soul-grinder out of 24" range until turn5 when I closed into the 24" range. In short, the game ended before I could get to him and start a fight. Tied killpoints 1:1, tied secondary and tertiary since nothing else died.

So I ended up 1-0-2. Realistically, 0-0-3.

Now here's my dilemma. Orks don't tie. Out of every game I've played this year....some 150+ inside and outside tournament settings, I've had a total of 2 ties before this tournament. We massacre or get massacred - its just the nature of the beast. Now I realize that I'm not in top form; I've not had much 40k in the last 3-4 months....but this has really shaken me. I even WON the roll to go first all three rounds. I've NEVER done that before. I hardly ever win that roll. So I'm wondering if I'm losing my edge? Or missing something gigantic? I didn't bring a camera or write any battle reports, so I can't really present batreps for you to look at and analyze how the games went. I'm a bit rueful on that part because almost every batrep I write is me winning...and this is when I really NEED outside eyes analyzing what happened.

So my question is this: You tournament players - do you have strange tournament experiences like this? Complete outliers to your typical experience?

Dashofpepper wrote: Interestingly, the game involved rolling a D6 on turn4 to determine the mission -

Wait, what?

Did you know about this ahead of time?

It seems pants-on-head slowed that in a 5 turn game you'd roll for mission on turn 4.

Well the first question is have you played against these types of armies before? Which I think you have.

Did you finish your games? A lot of the draws I see in tournaments from personal perspective are because of time. Not something you usually have a problem with but I noticed a lot of when the game ended on turn 5.

How familiar is your opponent with your army can also lead to draws if they feel outclassed by your list.. For instance the daemon player was very afraid of your assault so did everything he could to stop it.

The other can be because of your list and playing in the same place multiple times. I've noticed that some people that always bring the same lists start to draw and lose over time if going to the same local events (especially when they win a lot with said lists). I think this is mainly due to their opponents learning the "playstyle" of the army and how a person uses them. People either subconsciously or consciously change lists to combat the lists that win the tournaments in their areas.

well, i have nothing that compares with this but i do have a single story that was quite funny....

i was playing 'ard boys tourney, and it was the 3rd and final match. CSM Vs Necrons (me necrons)

Dawn of war deployment, and we were on a very bare battle field. it was pretty much flat except that there were TONS of craters (like a moon). my opponet deployed his 2 troops, and his HQ, i deployed mine, and we went.

He started bringing things in off of his table edges, and he decided he was going to take his rhino and try to get it on the table where a crator was sitting...

He FAILED his DT Test, and his rhino immobilized without even getting on the table! we called the judge over, then got a bunch of other people and asked everyone in the room to come take a look and lets come to a decision as a whole what should happen.

well, the rhino was not on the board, so it was technically destroyed, but it was argued that it was a mishap because it was still technically entering through reserves. but then the fact that it did not deep strike came in, and my god, it was funny.

The room finally decided that it was MY decision because in the long run, it would affect me and my necrons...i told my opponet to just put it on the table where it fits cuz i wanted to play him with full power....but in turn, he had to only move 2" the next turn if he got it repaired, and he could not disembark until turn 3 either. he agreed.

Turn 2 comes around and he manages to roll a 6 on the repair roll! boy was he excited. so turn 3 arrived and he tried to move it!....and rolled another 1......do remember that he still is not technically on the board...this guy had some messed up luck with that rhino, but it was just SO funny!

just thought i would share that

Warmaster wrote:Well the first question is have you played against these types of armies before? Which I think you have.

Did you finish your games? A lot of the draws I see in tournaments from personal perspective are because of time. Not something you usually have a problem with but I noticed a lot of when the game ended on turn 5.

How familiar is your opponent with your army can also lead to draws if they feel outclassed by your list.. For instance the daemon player was very afraid of your assault so did everything he could to stop it.

The other can be because of your list and playing in the same place multiple times. I've noticed that some people that always bring the same lists start to draw and lose over time if going to the same local events (especially when they win a lot with said lists). I think this is mainly due to their opponents learning the "playstyle" of the army and how a person uses them. People either subconsciously or consciously change lists to combat the lists that win the tournaments in their areas.

I have played these types of lists before, and have never played any of the three opponents I played against. My first game was against one of the strongest players in the Atlanta metro area, so I figured that I'd be following it with two massacres. Also, this wasn't a local event for me - I don't live or game in the area; I live hours and hours away. =p

My wife says that I was unpracticed, and have been under a lot of stress lately so was probably distracted; I did make a few errors in my games.....but tying three games with an army built to win or lose is very troubling to me.

One mistake I think was choosing to go first in the Daemon game. He couldnt have hidden from you if you had came on right accross from him....



Clay

While not local you did go to the two last circuit events, and won them right? Which means people have seen the list (unless you were playing your dark eldar).

It is very odd to get 3 in a row. Usually I win 2 out of 3 games at any tournament I go to or 2-0-1 (for 3 round tournaments). Sometimes you have bad day's and I've gone 1-2 I think at the worst, but I've never had a triple draw.

He played Orks at the first one, and DE at the 2nd, so both lists had been seen. Of course, every other list there had also been seen multiple times by everyone else in the tournament, so everyone was pretty much prepared for what would be there. They just didnt know what Dash was bringing to this event, but they assumed it would be one or the other....


Clay

My experience: stuff happens. Yes, orks can draw.

It's actually easy to end with a draw against an opponent who refuses to engage, or in an 'objective determined on turn 4' type mission.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. In fact, I'm more surprised that you haven't had draws in the past than I am that you got them now.

Some clarification about the mission;


Unplanned Assault- Game length 6 turns, with random to go to 7 possibly.

Roll for mission at beginning of turn 4. You also see what the objectives COULD be the whole time, so its not a total surprise when you make the roll. Secondly, you have a minimum of 3 turns, and possibly 4 to get the objectives done.




Clay

Redbeard wrote:
In fact, I'm more surprised that you haven't had draws in the past than I am that you got them now.

That's an interesting comment. Could you elaborate? I play to win - I throw 100% of my effort into tabling my opponent in every game. I either succeed and win, or fail and lose....I've never really been in a situation to deal with draws, which is why these catch me by surprise so much.

Orks don't strike me as an army to get draws with, and I guess I've gotten comfortable with how it works, and while I'm equally happy winning or losing, drawing is the worst...and I'd like to keep it from happening.


@Primarch: If I had brought DE, *smacks lips together* 3 Xenos armies in the field amidst a swarm of marine players; I would have had a field day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Primarch wrote:Some clarification about the mission;


Unplanned Assault- Game length 6 turns, with random to go to 7 possibly.

Roll for mission at beginning of turn 4. You also see what the objectives COULD be the whole time, so its not a total surprise when you make the roll. Secondly, you have a minimum of 3 turns, and possibly 4 to get the objectives done.




Clay

Hrm....we rolled on turn 4, game ended on turn 5. My opponent (Kelly) is a.....careful thinker. I had to prod him for a turn5 at all.

I think that is it the dice gods saying they want more battle reports...

I never really have any strange tournament reports, the strangest thing outside of getting cheated would be that I won a match-up I had no illusions about losing. I thought the mechanized deathguard were going to pound my alaitoc gunline like there was no tomorrow.

That doesnt point to a problem with the mission, players aside, I wanted to clarify for the above poster. There is nothing wrong with that mission, it's actually one of the more fun ones out there.

The game length is 6 turns, with a possible 7th, not finishing is not the fault of the mission.


Clay

Primarch, I'm not complaining. Venue was great, Ken's a great guy, and the tournament was just fine.

I was just astounded to come away with 3 draws because my army is built to win or lose....and I'm just wondering if it is meaningful.

Again, no worries, I was clarifying for one of the posters above who thought the mission was unfair. It was not designed to be finished on turn 5. Shrug.



Glad you had fun.



Clay

You're army isn't built to win (pretty much all armies are, to some extent or another). It's built to win big, which is something that a lot of armies struggle with. You don't' just play to win, but to massacre.

That said, draws happen. The first game drew due to both armies being aggressive in eliminating troops. The second due to time, and the third due to your opponent essentially turtling. Is it weird to have three in a row? Of course, but i agree with Redbeard in that every army is going to get plenty of draws.

Polonius wrote:You're army isn't built to win (pretty much all armies are, to some extent or another). It's built to win big, which is something that a lot of armies struggle with. You don't' just play to win, but to massacre.

That said, draws happen. The first game drew due to both armies being aggressive in eliminating troops. The second due to time, and the third due to your opponent essentially turtling. Is it weird to have three in a row? Of course, but i agree with Redbeard in that every army is going to get plenty of draws.

This is where I disagree. In the 3rd game. Dash chose to go first against a Daemon army that had gotten the wrong half in. If you were the Daemon player, would you have dropped piece meal into the middle of the enemy army? If so, then I suggest you would have played it wrong. The Daemon player dropped opposite the Ork, since the Ork was more mobile, anything else would have been giving the game away.

If Dash had gone 2nd, we wouldn't be talking about this in my opinion. He would have come on the board right across from the Daemons and hit his line pretty easily and with plenty of time left.

You can't expect the Daemon to play like an idiot when the deck was stacked against him already.



Clay

I'm not sure what you disagree with. I'm not saying anybody played the third mission bad, it just didn't involve any contact. Maybe I read the report wrong.

Nah, I think I assume the world "turtle" to be a bad thing, comes from playing other game systems. Probably got a head of myself on that response, my apologies.



Clay

No worries. I'm trying to figure out how Dash was incapable of reaching the demons. I played mech IG at a tournament last weekend, and I faced a marine gunline that hung back, and i still got to him by turn three.

I've played some variant of that Unplanned Pregnancy, er, Unplanned Assault mission. I don't mind the mid-game mission determination, but I think the roll should happen turn 3. I had a similar problem when I played in a local tourney in Oregon, in that it ended after turn 5 and thus usually became a draw. But *shrug* it's not that important, either.

I have to agree with Clay here, the daemon player did what he should have. Why would he want to piece meal into 2000 pts of orks? Now if his goal was to give Dash 30 points sure go ahead and drop right in front of Gaz and the boys. The Orks are mobile the daemons are not once they are on the ground. The orks had a chance to win if he goes after the daemon turtle, the daemons had no chance to win by dropping infront of gaz and the boyz. So the Daemon player basically said we both have a chance to win if you come in, and if not it is a draw.


The biggest thing is the fact that it never should have come to that. Dash should of made the Daemon player go first and then he could line up across from him, and smash the army as it appears on the table.


Mark

Dash - did you neglect to bring the Morgans?

There was no Captain Morgan at the tournament, I had to drive myself, which means no irresponsible drinking and driving. That might have been what screwed me over.

Dashofpepper wrote:
That's an interesting comment. Could you elaborate? I play to win - I throw 100% of my effort into tabling my opponent in every game. I either succeed and win, or fail and lose....I've never really been in a situation to deal with draws, which is why these catch me by surprise so much.

Orks don't strike me as an army to get draws with, and I guess I've gotten comfortable with how it works, and while I'm equally happy winning or losing, drawing is the worst...and I'd like to keep it from happening.

And this is why Americans hate soccer

Okay, let's put it this way. You play to win. I play to win too. But, there comes a time in a game where you simply realize that winning is no longer possible. Could be when your troops get exploded on an objective mission. Could be when you lose your only means of dealing with a significant threat that your opponent is posing. Experienced players should be able to take stock of the table each turn, and know, roughly, what their chances of pulling out a win, and what their chances of pulling out a draw are. If you're playing less-competent players, you account for that. If you're playing more competent players, well, you factor that in too.

So, you're in that situation, and you know you're not going to win. But, the tournament isn't one game, it's three, or four, and at the end, every point matters. At that point, experienced players will shift their mindset from 'I'm going to crush my opponent' to 'I'm going to salvage whatever points I can'.

If that means that I stop focusing on your objectives, and decide to kill your only long-range threats to me hiding a unit off in a corner, simply to avoid being massacred, then I'll throw whatever I've got left at that point into that, because the alternative is no longer winning, it's being tabled.

Orks can be good for draws. In capture/control, if I throw everything I have at the middle of the field, just to make a huge scrum, and hold a grot unit in reserve, coming in on turn 4 or 5 to get my own objective, well, that's a draw. I might not have the ability to get through your troops in time to get to your objective, but I can stop you getting to mine and get my grots on it... That's better than scoring 0 for the round.

If I'm forced to go second, and I've got a kopta, I might hide it somewhere for a last-turn objective contest. Any army can do this stuff. And when the dice go against you early, sometimes the best strategy for long-term winning in the tournament is to harbour what resources you've got left into getting what points you can.

This is doubly true in league or series play. You're not going to win every tournament. Getting into the league/series finals is about performance over the long-haul, and the difference between coming in 5th and coming in 15th in an event could be the difference between making the cut and not making the cut. Honestly, if faced with a poor matchup (and, ideally, you can recognize a poor matchup for your army before deployment), going for the feasible draw makes more sense than going for the win.

Game theory analysis backs this up. Let's say a round is worth 48 points. A 'good' matchup is one where your odds of winning (including your opponent's competence) is 80%. A 'bad' matchup is 20%, and an average matchup is 50%. But, if you're playing to draw, (an easier position to take, as it's the default result if your opponent does nothing, and allows you to only concentrate on half the field, or just killing his troops, or...) then you might be faced with a 50% chance to score the tie in the bad matchup.

So, you're faced with a bad matchup.
If you go for the win, your expected result is 20% (your chance of winning) * 48 (points for winning) = 9.6 points.
If you go for the tie, your expected result is 50% * 24 (half points for tying) = 12 points.

You have a higher expected return if you play for the draw, in spite of the fact that the draw is worth less overall if you get it.

Now, in a three game tournament with 32 participants, this might knock you out anyway. 3 rounds, 32 players, someone is going undefeated, in which case the draw knocks you out of contention as much as a loss, so you might as well play to win, and hope that it happens.

But, stretch that tournament out to six or seven games. Or put it in the context of a series, where there will be 30 games played over a number of months. Now, playing for the higher expected return makes a lot more sense, because as you extend the scope of the competition, it's consistent point scoring, rather than winning three games in a row, that will determine the winner.

Dashofpepper wrote:There was no Captain Morgan at the tournament, I had to drive myself, which means no irresponsible drinking and driving. That might have been what screwed me over.

pffft... are you playing to win or are you playing to have a safe drive home!?! next time get drunk before hand that way you won't be too concerned about foolish things like, "safety", "responsibily" and "the law"

You probably were not doing so well and subconsciously went into salvage mode and the results were the draws.

I played a game where some guy put Teclis on the front lines 12" up in the direct center. I countered by shooting my quarrlers at him first turn and the guy ended up quitting within 3 minutes of the game. Weird...

I never had any luck winning with my Blood Axe Freebooterz lost ever battle I got in but was fun. My Dark Angel Marines did ok last tourney got a buy in the first game being odd man out. Second game I faced another home grown marine chapter and won vie objective opints. Game 3 was Chaos and we beat each other for 4 full turns like a red headed step child and he squeked by with 1 victory point I took 3rd over all it was fun.

crap... without dash posting regular battle reports, i didn't even realize that the third round had come and gone. i would have attended... :(