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OK, Empire guys, here is the 290pts solution for hoards:

3 x Mortar
1 x Engineer

Deploy them all together so the Engineer is within 3" of the mortars.
The engineer gets a 4+ look out sir! roll.
You get to reroll one Misfire/Scatter die a turn.
No partials anymore.
Simply target all 3 at one hoard at a time.

Of coaurse, then there is monster elemination with 3 great cannons and the engineer...

Sure, that seems viable, but it doesn't look very nice. Might as well take 2 steam tanks while you're at it.

Well two steam tanks are 600 pts., and as the 1.1 FAQ has made it no longer immune to magic, Lore of Metal spells the end of this beast.

The truth is, I have only used the stean tank twice in the 5 years I have be playing Empire. It never really apealed to me that much.

Steam tanks are still immune to Spells without strength values
T10 W10 is great but i heard they aren't so good when they start taking wounds.

Why not just fight Horde with horde? 50 halberdiers is only 200pts i think?

Don't know what mortars doo ^_^

Alas, if were true, but as of July 13th, page two of the 1.1 errata for Empire removed the paragraph on P.51 of the Empire army book that stated the tank was immune to non (S) based spells. So yes, Pit of Shades (tank has Int. 3 now), Lore of Metal, etc will work against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seon wrote:
Why not just fight Horde with horde? 50 halberdiers is only 200pts i think?

quote]

Oh, and yes, I do field hoards. 40 spears plus command is 220 points.

My bad! No one told me there was an errata 1.1 :(

going to go have a look!

The horde v horde method, while solid, only works for certain armies. Empire do not seem to be one of them. Low T and little armor, combined with a higher than average points cost means that toe to toe you will not stand up to the likes of skaven, beastmen, marauders, etc. Also, if my math-hammer is correct, swordsmen would be better. They won't kill as much, but against your typical horde (S3,T3), they will have more sustainability.

Generally the hoard units I have seen are str5 (great weapons).
Also, the engineer can only help one war machine per turn and you have to declare it before you fire.

cypher wrote:Generally the hoard units I have seen are str5 (great weapons).
Also, the engineer can only help one war machine per turn and you have to declare it before you fire.

True, you only get 1 re-roll per turn, but I do not see in the errata where you must declare you are using it before you fire.

Page 46 – Master Engineers, Master of Ballistics
Change to “Master of Ballistics: A Master Engineer
within 3" of a war machine is allowed to take a ‘Look Out Sir!’
roll as if he was within 3" of a unit of five or more models. In
addition, one war machine that is within 3" of a Master
Engineer may re-roll either one scatter dice or one artillery dice
per turn. This may not be used to re-roll the distance bounced
by a cannonball. If the Engineer uses his re-roll ability, he
cannot shoot with his own missile weapon in the same Shooting
phase.”

Not to get too off topic, but for the record:

A horde is a big pile of troops.
A hoard is a big pile of cash.

(Not 100% accurate, but you get the picture).

Honestly, I think there's only a handful of troop types that will actually see deployment in horde formations- because only a select few are cheap enough for it to be worthwhile. On the other hand, mortars should still find plenty of targets with blocked infantry returning, so it isn't exactly wasted points.

RZ

Id honestly love for someone to use all their big firepower into my horde and ignore my smaller elite units....

go for it!

Red_Zeke wrote:Not to get too off topic, but for the record:

A horde is a big pile of troops.
A hoard is a big pile of cash.

(Not 100% accurate, but you get the picture).

RZ

True, but to get a horde of troops you need a hoard of cash.

Lots of mortars will help with a horde, but it really depends on the type of horde you run into.

A VC horde of GG with the regeneration banner will still make it into close combat with the majority of the horde intact (between the saves and invocations/summon undead horde).

A T4 horde with good armor and a ward save versus shooting would probably still make it mostly intact, too.

With the new charge rules, you can't really rely on having more than two shooting phases to dedicate to an income horde; maybe only one if the horde player goes first.

In my opinion, in this edition, you cannot merely rely on shooting to get rid of your opponent's troops.

hoard+ogres=win. They are a beast of unit and will kill everything in their way! Chances also say they'll be on you by turn two most of the time.

Horde plus ogres does = win indeed. My games vs. orges in 8th have been about 50/50.

The solution to the mosterous infantry horde is steadfast. They are going to win, you simply need to pass your break test so you can countercharge. Against these brutes, my horde will be 5 wide ten deep when the ogres hit. (4 1/2 deep after they hit )

Any decent horde army can deal with war machines. Skaven have Scouts and the Storm Banner, O&G have their own war machines, other Empire armies obviously have return artillery. Beastmen have Ambush and Scouts and their #6 spell.

It's nice on paper but it's far from extending your hand across and saying "Good game?"

3 mortars doesnt sound very fun, wheres all the greatswords? :(

Greatswords are full of awsome, I havent been able to hoard them as I only have 22. Even 22 do their job very well and are a good tar pit unit. Used with knights they do even better.

I run 25 greatswords and they are a solid unit. No doubt. The step up rule helps them big time. After they win, however, the steadfast enemy hangs around. Blasting said unit with 3 mortars 1st removes the ranks and, therefore, the problem.

50 halberds cost 250 points, not 200...and 50 swordsmen will run you 300!

Horde rules alone won't cut it for empire...with nothing but the horde, we do lose when we go toe to toe with a rat or gobo horde. That's really not a change from how we won in 7th edition. Whittle the enemy horde with shooting/mortars, hit them in the front with your horde, and hit them in the flank with a supporting charge from your horde's detachment.

Which is why you have a small horde with a couple of Detachments.

30 swordsmen in horde formation with 1-2 Detachments of 10 swordsmen, same cost as 50 swordsmen, but more effective.

OR you do the main Horde as Spearmen(cheaper) and have more Swordsmen in each detachment.


Do detachments count against the minimum number of units you are required to have?

Which is why you have a small horde with a couple of Detachments.

30 swordsmen in horde formation with 1-2 Detachments of 10 swordsmen, same cost as 50 swordsmen, but more effective.

OR you do the main Horde as Spearmen(cheaper) and have more Swordsmen in each detachment.


Do detachments count against the minimum number of units you are required to have?

Outmanoeuvring a horde may work well, they aren't exactly nimble. A frontal charge from a decent block of infantry supported by some form of cavalry in the flank tends to work well, depending on the nature of the beast you fight.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Outmanoeuvring a horde may work well, they aren't exactly nimble. A frontal charge from a decent block of infantry supported by some form of cavalry in the flank tends to work well, depending on the nature of the beast you fight.

Hit the nail on the head in my opinion. I reckon supporting flank charges on hordes will work well. Either that or just run away from them

This of course assumes the Horde doesn't have it's own supporting elements to it's flanks.

Which is safe to assume if he has one big unit which costs twice as much as yours.