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Hi, Everyone,

The Subject, Pricing WTF?, may come across as shallow and blunt, but there's a debate to be had here, which will probably end along the lines of, so buy your Battleforces now! Run! Run to the Hil - eh, Stores! But enough of that for just now. Simply, I'm predicting a Battleforce Price Rise, and a considerable one at that. Take the Chaos Space Marines Battleforce:

This boxed set contains 15 Chaos Space Marines (includes 1 Chaos Space Marine Champion, 1 Chaos Space Marine Icon Bearer, 1 Chaos Space Marine with heavy bolter and 1 Chaos Space Marine with plasma gun), 5 Possessed Chaos Space Marines (includes 1 Possessed Chaos Space Marine Champion), 8 Khorne Berserkers (includes 1 Skull Champion) and 1 Chaos Space Marine Rhino. - Games Workshop

There are two points to make here. Who, in the hell of it, is ever going to buy a Chaos Space Marines Boxed Set again? 10 Chaos Space Marines for £22.50, or a Heap-Load of Extra Gubbinz for £40, if you order through an Online Vendor which gives 20% Off. And the other, how long will it stay like this? Surely, when Games Workshop realise how much they're throwing away in a Battleforce because of the recent Price Rises which didn't effect them, we'll be seeing £75 Battleforces? There would still be a saving over Separate Purchasing!

This isn't a cry for Games Workshop to raise the Prices all just yet. Let us buy our Battleforces first!

So buy your Battleforces now! Run! Run to the Hil - eh, Stores!

Popsicle wrote:There are two points to make here. Who, in the hell of it, is ever going to buy a Chaos Space Marines Boxed Set again? 10 Chaos Space Marines for £22.50, or a Heap-Load of Extra Gubbinz for £40, if you order through an Online Vendor which gives 20% Off. And the other, how long will it stay like this? Surely, when Games Workshop realise how much they're throwing away in a Battleforce because of the recent Price Rises which didn't effect them, we'll be seeing £75 Battleforces? There would still be a saving over Separate Purchasing!

Actually its abit different then what you listed.

Many of the targeted customer are children. Most of them do not have the insight / money / patience to save up for a battle force no matter how much discount it provides.
They are very impulsive buyers that wants their parents to buy something for them , and in parent's eye , a small box of mini for x price to shut the child up , is better then dishing out money of X x 4

GW is a buisness , they know perfectly well discount is discount. Its nothing like "throwing potential income away" via providing cheap bundle deals.

I havnt read it thoroughly , but it should be explaining it: http://blogs.hbr.org/tjan/2010/02/the-pros-and-cons-of-bundled-p.html

LunaHound wrote:

Popsicle wrote:There are two points to make here. Who, in the hell of it, is ever going to buy a Chaos Space Marines Boxed Set again? 10 Chaos Space Marines for £22.50, or a Heap-Load of Extra Gubbinz for £40, if you order through an Online Vendor which gives 20% Off. And the other, how long will it stay like this? Surely, when Games Workshop realise how much they're throwing away in a Battleforce because of the recent Price Rises which didn't effect them, we'll be seeing £75 Battleforces? There would still be a saving over Separate Purchasing!

Actually its abit different then what you listed.

Many of the targeted customer are children. Most of them do not have the insight / money / patience to save up for a battle force no matter how much discount it provides.
They are very impulsive buyers that wants their parents to buy something for them , and in parent's eye , a small box of mini for x price to shut the child up , is better then dishing out money of X x 4

GW is a buisness , they know perfectly well discount is discount. Its nothing like "throwing potential income away" via providing cheap bundle deals.

I havnt read it thoroughly , but it should be explaining it: http://blogs.hbr.org/tjan/2010/02/the-pros-and-cons-of-bundled-p.html

I suppose. But even then, don't Parents also think, 'Wow, these little Toy Soldiers cost how much?'. Surely there should be Volunteer Protesters outside every Games Workshop, telling unwary Parents to buy Battleforces... Edit: Since they're so much better value. What about us Experienced Hobbyists? Why aren't we all buying Battleforces, and not Boxed Sets?

Popsicle wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Popsicle wrote:There are two points to make here. Who, in the hell of it, is ever going to buy a Chaos Space Marines Boxed Set again? 10 Chaos Space Marines for £22.50, or a Heap-Load of Extra Gubbinz for £40, if you order through an Online Vendor which gives 20% Off. And the other, how long will it stay like this? Surely, when Games Workshop realise how much they're throwing away in a Battleforce because of the recent Price Rises which didn't effect them, we'll be seeing £75 Battleforces? There would still be a saving over Separate Purchasing!

Actually its abit different then what you listed.

Many of the targeted customer are children. Most of them do not have the insight / money / patience to save up for a battle force no matter how much discount it provides.
They are very impulsive buyers that wants their parents to buy something for them , and in parent's eye , a small box of mini for x price to shut the child up , is better then dishing out money of X x 4

GW is a buisness , they know perfectly well discount is discount. Its nothing like "throwing potential income away" via providing cheap bundle deals.

I havnt read it thoroughly , but it should be explaining it: http://blogs.hbr.org/tjan/2010/02/the-pros-and-cons-of-bundled-p.html

I suppose. But even then, don't Parents also think, 'Wow, these little Toy Soldiers cost how much?'. Surely there should be Volunteer Protesters outside every Games Workshop, telling unwary Parents to buy Battleforces... Edit: Since they're so much better value. What about us Experienced Hobbyists? Why aren't we all buying Battleforces, and not Boxed Sets?

Chances are , the parents dont know anything about warhammer. They pretty much only see as much as the boxes their children bring to them.
Expensive yes , but they already are in the mind set of "holy god this is expensive , lets just get this over with"

I really dont think they know to shop around.

LunaHound wrote:

Popsicle wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Popsicle wrote:There are two points to make here. Who, in the hell of it, is ever going to buy a Chaos Space Marines Boxed Set again? 10 Chaos Space Marines for £22.50, or a Heap-Load of Extra Gubbinz for £40, if you order through an Online Vendor which gives 20% Off. And the other, how long will it stay like this? Surely, when Games Workshop realise how much they're throwing away in a Battleforce because of the recent Price Rises which didn't effect them, we'll be seeing £75 Battleforces? There would still be a saving over Separate Purchasing!

Actually its abit different then what you listed.

Many of the targeted customer are children. Most of them do not have the insight / money / patience to save up for a battle force no matter how much discount it provides.
They are very impulsive buyers that wants their parents to buy something for them , and in parent's eye , a small box of mini for x price to shut the child up , is better then dishing out money of X x 4

GW is a buisness , they know perfectly well discount is discount. Its nothing like "throwing potential income away" via providing cheap bundle deals.

I havnt read it thoroughly , but it should be explaining it: http://blogs.hbr.org/tjan/2010/02/the-pros-and-cons-of-bundled-p.html

I suppose. But even then, don't Parents also think, 'Wow, these little Toy Soldiers cost how much?'. Surely there should be Volunteer Protesters outside every Games Workshop, telling unwary Parents to buy Battleforces... Edit: Since they're so much better value. What about us Experienced Hobbyists? Why aren't we all buying Battleforces, and not Boxed Sets?

Chances are , the parents dont know anything about warhammer. They pretty much only see as much as the boxes their children bring to them.
Expensive yes , but they already are in the mind set of "holy god this is expensive , lets just get this over with"

I really dont think they know to shop around.

True, true. Hence we need Volunteer 'Buy a Battleforce, Madam!' People Person Things.

Since they're so much better value. What about us Experienced Hobbyists? Why aren't we all buying Battleforces, and not Boxed Sets?

If I only need X, why pay more for X+Y+Z+A if I'm not going to use the extra?

Spending less but getting only what I need may be better for me than spending more and getting what I need plus extra stuff I do not.

Jake

CptJake wrote:

Since they're so much better value. What about us Experienced Hobbyists? Why aren't we all buying Battleforces, and not Boxed Sets?

If I only need X, why pay more for X+Y+Z+A if I'm not going to use the extra?

Spending less but getting only what I need may be better for me than spending more and getting what I need plus extra stuff I do not.

Jake

Either you would eventually find a use for it, or Sell it separately and win yourself even more of a Discount. You could end up with something for Free, the way it balances out.

they should drop their cost.

period.
I mean, christ! I'm NOT PAYING 620 dollars for 10 boxes of small models.

those models? the most expensive part of it is the packaging.

the plastic, bought in large amounts [bulk buy/billed. we] is probably worth 1000$ if that. and thats a 1 tonne.

thats at least enough for 5000 boxes of plastic men.

I don't want the hassle of selling the unneeded parts. On top of that, I don't want (for example) a rhino; I want Razorbacks or Predators that I can magnetize. I bought the SM battleforce with the 3 (?) tanks but that's it, all the other stuff (5,5k pts in total) is individual boxes.

Captain Solon wrote:they should drop their cost.

period.
I mean, christ! I'm NOT PAYING 620 dollars for 10 boxes of small models.

those models? the most expensive part of it is the packaging.

the plastic, bought in large amounts [bulk buy/billed. we] is probably worth 1000$ if that. and thats a 1 tonne.

thats at least enough for 5000 boxes of plastic men.

I really don't want to get into this, but there is more to the cost of a product than just the raw materials.

I'm pretty sure nobody here has seen GW's books, or even the P&L at a GW store. As such, I'm pretty sure nobody here is qualified to pass judgement regarding the pricing of their minis.

Of course, if anyone here HAS seen the books or a GW store P&L, ignore that comment. You are more qualified than me.

I have seen there Financials, but it is high level stuff, so it does not give much detail to determine cost per product.

Their financial report states their profit margin on plastics is 400%, but that's only the boxes, it doesn't include their costs for labor, retail stores, wages, marketing, etc.

They made a solid $170 mil in revenue last year, but were actually in the red for a couple years a little while ago, so they aren't exactly living as gods. Their actual assets are pretty meager, less then $50 mil and most of that (like 95+%) is tied up in real estate.

Terminus wrote:Their financial report states their profit margin on plastics is 400%, but that's only the boxes, it doesn't include their costs for labor, retail stores, wages, marketing, etc.

They made a solid $170 mil last year, but were actually in the red for a couple years a little while ago, so they aren't exactly living as gods.

Yeah, but really, what business isn't in the red most of the time?

I bought a box of Dire Avengers for my Eldar last month. This month, I will do so again. I may want some Swooping Hawks next month. Saving for a Battle Force not only does not meet my needs, but also delays my gratification past the point where it would be worthwhile. Fortunately, I occasionally fish treasures from the archive that are still useful as well. The painted Warp Spiders were a treat, and I was able to supplement them with an Exarch from E-bay for almost nothing.

Whoops! I'm rambling...

Recently, GW has had an increase in all of their basic troops for every army and the Assault at Black Reach Starter Kit.

Actually, I have a similar problem to the above described (by gazelle). While battleforces are obviously a better deal, I more often find myself at my FLGS, after a nice long five-hour game, walking by the 40k display, seeing a box of Fire Warriors, and saying, eh, why not? And buying one. And some paint. And a cube of dice. And... you get the idea.

On the other hand, I'll look at a battleforce (let's use the Tau battleforce as an example) and even though the price of a Fire Warrior squad, Battlesuit, and a Devilfish make the battleforce a better deal than the box sets, I'll still see the Kroot and Stealthsuits and avoid the battleforce just because I don't by any means need any more of those things. And I'll pay $35 for the Fire Warriors, $45 for the Devilfish, and $22 for the Battlesuit. Instead of just buying the box set, saving ~$20, and throwing the Kroot and Stealthsuits in my bitz box.

I constantly hear the argument that their primary audience is little kids and disparaging remarks about spending mommy and daddy's money.

But does anyone have any statistics to actually back up this claim that the majority of sales are targeted at young kids? I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I've just never seen any actual evidence to back up this claim.

Kolath wrote:I constantly hear the argument that their primary audience is little kids and disparaging remarks about spending mommy and daddy's money.

But does anyone have any statistics to actually back up this claim that the majority of sales are targeted at young kids? I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I've just never seen any actual evidence to back up this claim.

Your looking for claims by people on the internet with actual support?

Kolath wrote:I constantly hear the argument that their primary audience is little kids and disparaging remarks about spending mommy and daddy's money.

But does anyone have any statistics to actually back up this claim that the majority of sales are targeted at young kids? I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I've just never seen any actual evidence to back up this claim.

Andy Chambers started this trend and his letter was widely spread around the internet, I'm sure you could find it in some web archives. The premise was that targeting these kids is more lucrative as they have more expendable income as they don't have to worry about gas, bills or needy girlfriends. Considering their business has grown every year since (although there's been a dip in the last 5 years or so), there was probably some merit to his idea.

Also, you may find this sentiment more common among gamers that play at official GW stores. In my experience, most of these locales are glorified daycares, where busy parents drop off their brats to get them out of their hair for 4-5 hours. In locations where 40K is available predominately (or solely) through independent hobby and comic shops, the player base is more likely to be made up of hoary old timers. All too often, these hoary old timers have terrible hygiene and live in their mom's basement, so they still qualify as children spending mommy's money. It's a vicious cycle.

Thanks, Terminus, at least that is some explanation ;-)

Also you cite the primary reasons I never game in a store and only game with a dedicated group of friends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and that we like to modify the rules and use house rules.

Well,i would not be so upset with the price increase if california dident have almost a 10% sales tax.If i buy a battleforce,its like $110.

Grambo wrote:Well,i would not be so upset with the price increase if california dident have almost a 10% sales tax.If i buy a battleforce,its like $110.

Ouch.

Move here to Kentucky, we're still at 6%.

Buy online from out of state suppliers. Sales Tax won't cross boarders.

Well, a lot of the battleforce boxes have little useful in them.

Tau: They have stealthsuits and Kroot. I'll never use either one in my Tau lists, so buying a Tau battleforce would be wasted money.

DE: Comes with one raider, 5 reaver jetbikes, 20 warriors (4 of which have splinter cannons), and a set of plastic trees. Seriously? That's enough warriors for 4 raiders, none of the required special weapons, 2 bikes too many, 5 too many for most lists...and plastic trees? The only thing useful in here is the raider.

Ork: 20 Boyz, 3 warbikers, and a trukk. Alright - trukks are only useful if you're completely going mech, warbikers are NEVER useful and an absurd waste of points, and you can only fit 12 boyz in a trukk. Not a good buy here either unless you plan on running a mech list, buy separate trukks, and for some reason want to make nob bikers and are going to hack, scrape, cut, and convert those warbikers into undersized nob bikers. So...not a good buy there either.

Space Wolves: 10 grey hunters, 10 blood claws, 5 wolf scouts, and a drop pod. Alright, not a bad buy. You can do some conversions here to make other stuff, and the blood claws are arguably not worth the addition into the set, especially since most space wolf lists focus on their ability to MSU heavy weapons (18 different ways to do razorback spam).

Tyranids: 3 Warriors, 8 hormagants, 1 carnifex, 8 termagants, and 8 genestealers. What a crappy assembly. The fex is pretty much just for parts in most lists, warriors are useless now except to convert to hive guard....genestealers are always nice, but not worth buying a battleforce box for. So no, not a good buy here.

Eldar: Lol. Every Eldar needs a heavy weapons crew. And a war walker to back it up.

Don't think I really need to go on. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:Tau: They have stealthsuits and Kroot. I'll never use either one in my Tau lists, so buying a Tau battleforce would be wasted money.

Amen.

But the point I did make earlier is that even without the Kroot and the Stealthsuits, that's $35 worth of Fire Warriors, $22 worth of Battlesuit, and $45 worth of Devilfish - $102 if you buy them separately. So by buying the Battleforce, you save at least $12, sometimes more depending on the price you get on the force. Just toss the worthless Kroot and Stealthsuits.

But I still use the exact same logic you just did when I am actually making purchases, and buy the individual box sets anyway.

SaintHazard wrote:

Grambo wrote:Well,i would not be so upset with the price increase if california dident have almost a 10% sales tax.If i buy a battleforce,its like $110.

Ouch.

Move here to Kentucky, we're still at 6%.

Lucky.

Grambo wrote:Well,i would not be so upset with the price increase if california dident have almost a 10% sales tax.If i buy a battleforce,its like $110.

You are lucky! In ontario, we have a 14% HST.

Then again, we're also one of the major tobacco states. I have a feeling that if the sales tax were raised on our cigarettes, there'd be riots.

Grambo wrote:Well,i would not be so upset with the price increase if california dident have almost a 10% sales tax.If i buy a battleforce,its like $110.

California sucks in general. Your gun laws disgust me.