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Hey all.
I've read a bout a zillion threads about Biker Command Squads, how to kit them for close combat, the dangers of sinking too many points into them, etc etc etc.

In my quest to switch to a fully-fast army list, I'm thinking of building a dirt cheap Biker Command Squad. No power weapons, no special shooting, etc. Just four Veterans with bolt pistol/chainsword, and an Apothecary. It runs at 205 points, which is just shy of the cost of 8 Troops-choice bikers without upgrades.
However, it's designed largely as a hard-to-kill backstab unit. I'd hope to use it by charging into existing combats. My Troops Bikers tend to always get caught or forced into a melee, no matter what I do. T5 and a powerfist or power weapon does alright for holding my own for a turn, but after that I get swamped. The cheap Biker Command Squad gets a whole slew of attacks that can add to combat resolution scores. Each Veteran has two base attacks, one extra for the bp/chainsword combo, and another for charging. That's 20 attacks at I4 into an existing melee. After the first round of a combat, all the power weapons/fists SHOULD be tied up with the original unit, so no power attacks coming back at my command squad to deny FNP rolls.
The rest of the game, these guys lay low in support, firing twin-linked bolters, or turbo-boosting around the backfield for cover saves on an open board.

Another option I'd like to explore is taking the Company Standard for rerolls on failed Morale/Pinning tests. Nothing sucks more in a fast army than failed Morale tests. It's an inexpensive upgrade that has major utility in a fast-mover list like this.

Finally, if I'm really liberal with points, I could snag meltabombs for each Veteran (not the Apoth). Very cheap upgrade, with a lot of utility. The one questionhere, though, is when I'd want to be charging a vehicle. I lose out on all those attacks I have (20 on the charge, remember?). Probably not a wise choice against a transport where the occupants would tarpit me on the opponent's turn, but the meltabombs would be nice against Loganwing/Deathwing forces, against which my deluge of basic attacks wouldn't do more than scratch TDA paintjobs. I can zoom the command squad around the backfield, strapping meltabombs to Predators and suchlike.

i feel like this would be a nice unit for my Biker Captain to attach to. Typically, i slap him in with a troops Bike squad, and he loses a lot of his effectiveness as a close combat beast. I kit mine with artificer armor, and a relic blade at the minimum. When targeting the same sort of units the command squad excels at hammering down, he adds further carnage, and takes advantage of the FNP rolls on failed 2+ armor saves.

Does this make sense to anyone else? I'm not after a Death Star unit here. I'm looking more for an IG-88 Assassin Droid. lol.

I think you'd be better served with a flamer bike squad. 4 flamers and the apothecary only costs 225. You lose out on 5 close combat attacks but with your superior mobility you should be able to really put the hurt on little bugs, orks, and IG.

Flamer bikers cannot fire into close combat.
This is more of a "Rescue squad" than a "firepower squad."

The dirt-cheap Biker Command Squad...does not exist.
No matter what, it starts off at a steep price already.

Keeping them cheap is relative, but the idea leads to two ways of thinking at the very least:

1. Don't load up on all three*, three* being SS, Special Weapon, and Special Combat Weapon.
2. Go with three* but not on everybody.

You need to work on staying out of combat more... it's that simple.
Or be the one to charge...just don't lose the setting the pace.

The command squad on bikes built for combat is at first a counter attack unit... but to need it is bad.
To unlock a squad from combat with a charging Command Squad means availablility to be shot at in the next turn because it's your opponents' turn.

So they really need to initiate combats and pray for a two round assault.

But on these boards, I think the Special Weapon Spam option is one suggested as well. It is unique in that they are really the only ones to do it. In addition, plasma spam is decent on them due to FNP and being able to deliver it well.

5 Command Bikers, 4 plasmaguns. 265. Any extra points you can sprinkle on the Banner or some Storm Shields.

Sanctjud wrote:You need to work on staying out of combat more... it's that simple.
Or be the one to charge...just don't lose the setting the pace.

I can agree with this. It's something I struggle with.
The problem is that the prevalence of units on various armies that can get at you no matter what you do is high. Disgusting Ork charge ranges out of open-topped vehicles, Waaghs, jump packers, non-scattering deepstriking units, Thunderwolf Cav that you can't outrun, Mawlocs, etc etc etc.
I find I run out of real estate quick, fast, and in a hurry. While twin-linked bolters are nice for hits, they wound not so much. AP5 isn't great against anything stronger than an Ork, non-Carapace Guardsman, or Gaunt.
If I sacrifice a meltagun squad to pop a Rhino, they end up charged by the occupants. I can't do 1:1 trades for transports, because of my low model count, as you already know.

Maybe once I get the fast-moving long-range support of my Typhoons in the mix, I'll see less of a problem with this. I'll be able to unload Krak missiles at the trasnports, leaving the occupants stranded on foot away from my lines? Heavy AV transports like Land Raiders and Battlewagons I CAN trade 1:1 for meltasquads, because of the relative points cost and utility.

It's prob. a difference of list.
I try to heavily favor going for the force concentration aspect of a fast army (bikers is what I run).

I do have alot of bolters and hvy bolters, it makes most of the units you describe 'workable'. I'll admit it doesn't fully cover bases, but it works fine enough.

But working with low model count is a pain yes, though the Command Squad is not helping at even their minimum cost. 205 = 10 man tactical in rhino.

Interesting idea, although i would give them 1 power weapon just to provide a little bite if needed.

I'd completely forgotten about the option to take a Company Champion. So, the squad will likely be three Vets, Champion, and Apothercary. Attach the Captain for extra butt-kicking, and it's a relatively cheap, solid unit. I'm toying with the idea of throwing a single storm shield into the mix, as well, to catch lascannon or krak missile shots.

No special weapons seems like an insult IMO.
The unit kitted like that doesn't handle heavy infantry, it doesn't handle MC's, it doesn't handle vehicles... it looks like it's there to be a tarpit for hordes...

I'm not 'getting' it TheRhino.

Alot of what's going on here is a response to the local metagame Sanctjud. We're a little behind the times at the local shop. Hordes are generally the big winners around our shop as most people aren't willing to invest the cash for chimera parking lots and the like. Our terrain is also fairly heavy so it can be hard to manuver bike squads

This is why I suggested flamers - TheRhino generally has good anti-tank from his other bike squads (or at least enough for his purposes). flamers are cheap and they will greatly help with the horde problem. I think that's why he's reticent to take powerfists and such as they are more tank/MC busters than ork slayers.

Regardless of meta, as I had said, it's still a heavy investment in points for a Biker Command Squad.
In which case it comes to the situation you might as well get the minimum trimmings to have them work better in an all-comers environment...which means at the very least special weapons.

We are in agreement Sgt_Scruffy to get 'something' with respect to Special weapons.

Helping a squad out of combat is great and all, but it has the high possibility of just leaving 2 biker squads out in the open with their pants down...so that's one possible use that will most likely end very badly.

I never mentioned powerfists.
__
Anyway, the squad intended to deal with hordes looks more like a squad that can only hold them up.
I and Sgt_Scruffy agree that they need some special weapons. And Sgt_Scruffy's suggestion is good for your purposes.

But note, you will not always get nice flamers and after which you will like lose out on intiating a charge... IMO, there will be few and far situations where it's a win/win and more of a lose/lose with a squad like that.

TheRhino
Atleast give them flame throwers. at 5 points a piece they still keep your squad cheap and dumping 5 flame throwers on the badguys is always strong.
AF


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I agree with the other posters you need to give them something. part of what you're paying for when you buy these guys is the option to take weapons.

Small note:
4 Flamers, and a 5th if we are talking about a combi-flamer on an attached IC to the squad

Sgt Sgruffy is right, my build ideas mostly come from the experiences I've had locally, and things I'm trying to refine in my current lists.

I've decided I don't like the power weapon Sergeant One carries, nor do I like the Powerfist sergeant Two carries. I'm switching these two guys out for combi-bolters or a plasma pistol to lead my Troops squads. I'm not afraid of plasma overheats, honestly. I figure a plasma pistol or combi-plasma toting sergeant is a better leader for my shooty Troops squad of 8 Bikers, with two plasmaguns and the attached heavy bolter attack bike.
My melta squad will likely get a new sergeant who's got a combimelta. I'm trying to match armaments of the squads with armaments of the sergeants.

My plan for building the command squad is to start by building and painting the Apothecary. then, I'll make four standard Vets, but use the old third-edition loose chainswords strapped to their bikes, as well as holstered bolt pistols. Blue helmets. This way, if I fail miserably with this bare-bones command squad idea, I can just shuffle those four guys into a regular squad as bolter bikes, and I lose nothing.
I guess my general mindset is that I don't really fear the possibility that the command squad ends up being a tarpit unit. If I slag a transport in the center of the board with a Troops Biker unit, and then tarpit the disembarked enemy Troop choice with my command squad, I've kept them off the objectives for 2-3 turns. I've got to at least TRY this tactic. The longer I have an enemy tactical squad or something tied up in close combat, the less chance they'll be contesting an objective on Turn 5, or near enough to shoot my Marines off of an objective if the game goes longer than 5 turns.
I know the captain can reliably cut down 2-3 MEQ models per turn. The champion should add 1-2 more, and dice luckmight get another from the rest of the squad. The scariest retribution I see from such a target are thunderhammers or powerfists, which wound my bikes on 2s, instead of the 5+ standard MEQ power weapons have to roll.

I feel like I've got enough shooty in my troops choices that spamming more special weapons in the command squad is just inflationary. For the all-fast army list I'm looking at, I need something that can throw out close comabt attacks, and compliment the captain's melee ability. My choices are a biker command squad, Assault Marines, or a Vanguard Squad (ugh).

At this point I'm just rambling on.


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AbaddonFidelis wrote:TheRhino
Atleast give them flame throwers. at 5 points a piece they still keep your squad cheap and dumping 5 flame throwers on the badguys is always strong.
AF


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I agree with the other posters you need to give them something. part of what you're paying for when you buy these guys is the option to take weapons.

I also agree that they need some upgrades, but disagree that the solution is shooting upgrades.
What I see happening if I pile 4x special weapons into the squad is this:

1. I describe the unit as I deploy it, or do my army-list rundown.
2. The opponent realizes the unit has 4x special weapons, and aims bad things at it, like krak missiles, lascannons, or plasma.
3. The squad loses a special weapon for every casualty, and by the time it's in place to USE said weapons, there's only one or two left.

This is a vicious cycle, really. If I buy a squad with 4x flamers, I lose a flamer for every death. I've got two options to mitigate that, Turbo Boost toward my target, or buy Invulnerable saves. If I Turbo Boost forward, I'm in assault range, and still can't actually shoot! Shooty weapons are a non-factor in melee, so the shooty weapons are wasted twice over. If I buy stormshields, I've just inflated the points cost of the unit, and it's a juicy target regardless, because every failed save costs me a 50+ point model.
My theory is that if I go cheap, with just a Champ, one power weapon or fist, and the Apothecary, the squad is still maneuverable, and flies a little lower under the radar than the pimped out Death Star version. This way I don't have to push forward quite as hard, and if Ilose guys, it's typically an unupgraded mook that I don't have to sigh sadly over.

keep the command squad in cover. you have FNP against things short of Krak missiles(Which aren't shooting at your tanks)

TheRhino
If your opponent is pissing himself about your command squad good. you cant look at that as a negative. its a positive.

Here are some other solutions to keeping your special weapons on the table.
1 put a lord in with the squad. he has an iron halo 3 wounds and feel no pain so he can take plasma shots pretty well.
2 bring your own terrain. hide them behind a land raider empty rhino as they move up etc.
3 saturate the board with threats. some will die. others will get through.

dont get hung up on your guys getting fragged. it happens. as long as he's paying a higher price to kill them then you are to remove them you're winning.
AF

And if you load up on plasmas you can actually reach out and touch someone.
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At this point, a bat rep would be the thing to seal the deal for you.

One thing.
I still don't understand why you aren't just getting a Maxed out biker squad instead if you are looking for a tarpit.

Command Squad bikers are 2 times more durable to hordish attacks.
Well, the Troop bike squad has 2 times the wounds.
No Apoc to be sniped and they don't have to worry about stuff that gets past FNP.

The command squad sports only 5 TL bolters compared to the 9 you'd get from the troops...and you get scoring.

The Command Squad gets 20 attacks on the charge.
The full bikers gets 21 attacks on the charge.

There is the issue of footprint which there are pros and cons to both large and small footprints.
With the larger squad you have the chance to tie up more than one squad easily, while the Command Squad is small enough to fit better in tighter places.
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In my experience, my tarpit unit is a 3 Unit Hvy Bolter Attack Bike Squadron...
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@losing a special weapon with each casualty.
Then create cover saves, rejoice that they are taking fire that's not going elsewhere, use reserves, then don't load up on so many and keep it to 2 or 3.

if I Turbo Boost forward, I'm in assault range

I think this is your issue. Bikers have extreme mobility, there is no reason to turbo-boost into cc range, that is just poor gaming. Your "cheap" command squad won't help you if you play like this.

If you play an all bikerlist, you should get used to your mobility. There is no reason to place yourself within charge range of units that you shoot out of transports. Fast moving multi-meltas can handle any normal transport from a safe range, and your normal bikers and support units can then take on the passengers on your terms.

The only transports you have to get close to, are battlewagons and land raiders, and there you can sacrifice a small squad and still come out on top.


The bare-bones command squad is a bad idea. It is way too expensive, you can have 4 multi-melta attackbikes for the same cost, or 2x thunderfire cannon if you fear hordes (you will never fear ork hordes after that purchase). 20 normal close combat attacks are in no circumstance worth 200 pts. T5 + FNP sounds nice too, but you've only got 5 guys, they only have one wound, and your FNP can be sniped out.

I think our disconnect, as you mentioned before, Sanctjud is purely playstyle. I'm actually aiming at a force that's all bikers and speeders. No tanks, no footsloggers. Nothing that can't move 12" in the movement phase.

I personally prefer smaller, more durable units to larger, expendable ones. In close combat, the durable unit lasts longer due to combat resolution. The command squad loses fewer wounds, so is less likely to lose the combat entirely. The troops make a crappy tarpit, because they lose so many wounds that they lose combat res, and either flee or take another handful of armor saves.
Pure playstyle choice though. I like units that are resilient, which is why I love my T5 bikers.

As for number of attacks, it's 20 on the charge for the Command Squad (without any special weapons) at 4 each. The 8-man plus attack bike is 3 for the sergeant (remember, he only has a bolt pistol to trade in, not bp+ccw!), 2 for each mook (7 of those), and 3 for the attack bike. 20 again!


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Also, I want to make it known that I'mnot arguing with you guys. lol.
I appreciate every angle and concern you throw at me on this one. It definitely helps. I don't get in as many games as I'd like, so I play a lot of Theoryhammer in my head.



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Illumini wrote:

if I Turbo Boost forward, I'm in assault range

I think this is your issue. Bikers have extreme mobility, there is no reason to turbo-boost into cc range, that is just poor gaming. Your "cheap" command squad won't help you if you play like this.

If you play an all bikerlist, you should get used to your mobility. There is no reason to place yourself within charge range of units that you shoot out of transports. Fast moving multi-meltas can handle any normal transport from a safe range, and your normal bikers and support units can then take on the passengers on your terms.

The only transports you have to get close to, are battlewagons and land raiders, and there you can sacrifice a small squad and still come out on top.


The bare-bones command squad is a bad idea. It is way too expensive, you can have 4 multi-melta attackbikes for the same cost, or 2x thunderfire cannon if you fear hordes (you will never fear ork hordes after that purchase). 20 normal close combat attacks are in no circumstance worth 200 pts. T5 + FNP sounds nice too, but you've only got 5 guys, they only have one wound, and your FNP can be sniped out.

A very good point on the boosting. I think some of my problem will go away once I get some longer-ranged support into the list in the form of Typhoons.
Historically, I've had a hard time taking down MEQ or better troops with my bike squads, due to lack of AP. The long-range shots from the bike bolters hit a lot, but fall down quickly to T4 and 3+ armor. This is why I'm gravitating toward plasmaguns as my specials in my Troops Biker units. Maybe a mix of 2x meltasquads, and 2x plasmasquads? I can pair them up so that in the shooting phase, the meltasquads are breaking open the transports, and the plasmaguns are melting passengers?

Now i'm going off on a tangent from the original post, but whole-list construction is also important

Do you have any attack bike squads? You do have some multimelta attackbikes in your bike squads at least, right?

The multimelta has an effective range of 36". Against normal transports (rhino/chimera/trukk etc), you use that range/mobility to get shots at side armour (or simply front against rhinos). S8 + AP1 = very nice against AV10-11. With a few multimeltas, you can even open up battlewagons from the side and be outside charge range. If you stay 20+ inches away when you blow up their transports, they won't be able to charge you, and they will be foot-slogging after your guys, with little hope of ever reaching them.

So again, you don't have to put yourself into charge range even when blowing up transports. Plasma is nice on bikers, it can even take out transports, as you can often get side-shots with your superior mobility. I take some melta, some plasma and some flamers on my bikers, and I like having the mix.

Also, you have the mobility to choose your engagements after you have taken out enemy transports. Use that fact, gang up on one unit with several of yours. 3 squads firing into a MEQ squad, followed by a charge when they are weakened enough should see off most units.

I'm not a fan of typhoons in a bikerlist, they take up a fast slot, and those should IMO be filled with attackbikes. Attackbikes are really the killer unit in biker lists.

No problem, it's all discussion and banter.
People are mixing opinions, it gets back and forthy naturally.
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I think our disconnect, as you mentioned before, Sanctjud is purely playstyle. I'm actually aiming at a force that's all bikers and speeders. No tanks, no footsloggers. Nothing that can't move 12" in the movement phase.

Actually.... my main army recently has been an all biker army....with no speeders to boot. And yes, even within biker lists, playstyle differ radically.

I personally prefer smaller, more durable units to larger, expendable ones. In close combat, the durable unit lasts longer due to combat resolution.

The Command Squad is balanced in terms of durability because it is stuck at 5 members...4 members that rely on one of them to be that tough.
When they are charging into hordes, they are not losing combat realistically.
But yes, we prefer different things.
I prefer a higher body count and more scoring models as a result and you prefer what was just quoted.

I like units that are resilient, which is why I love my T5 bikers.

I like them too, but I will caution... in all my experience (grain of salt at the end of the day) bikers are relatively durable, but suffer from a lower model count.
IMO, this balances out. In which case you'd have to use other elements of the biker to make the most use out of this relative durability.

Addition fail on my part.

Theme-wise I like it- all kitted out this turns into 300+ pts really fast.

I have to agree with a number of people that 200 is a pretty major investment for 5 FNP models with nothing special about them other than FNP and 20 concentrated attacks. If you attach your captain or some other bike HQ this is not bad - the IC will have to do the damage.

I would look at maybe 1 with PP & PW or 1 with SW & PF or to improve their survival perhaps a one off for each of them so you can play with wound allocation. 1 PF, 1 PP & CCW, 1 Flamer, 1 Melta or whatever so you can minimize the saves on your most important member for that match.

Illumini wrote:Do you have any attack bike squads? You do have some multimelta attackbikes in your bike squads at least, right?

I do. I have two attack bikes built right now, which are magnetized to be able to run as either multmelta or heavy bolter. I have the parts to build 4-6 more, as well.

I think one of the things I fail at is realizing that I don't mecessarily have to be inside the "melta" range for the MMs to be useful. As you said, the effective range is 36". S8 hits against light armor are just fine, but I always push myself into that 12" melta bubble, and end up assaulted for my efforts. I think that's a side effect of having the single multimelta attack bike attached to the biker squad. I get that one shot, and if I miss, I feel like I'm screwed. In reality, I'm not, since I should be at 20+ inches away anyways. If the opponent wants to dirve that far oer to me to take out one multimelta bike, more power to him, as the rest of my bikers can zap the transport afterward, or light up the passengers.

*deleted*

Yup, it all depends on your opponent and what he brings.
If his shooting is light, you can dance and skim just around the 24" mark.
It's generally about playing reactively early on.

The Way of the Water Warrior is something I suggest googling and looking into.

TheRhino wrote:I do. I have two attack bikes built right now, which are magnetized to be able to run as either multmelta or heavy bolter. I have the parts to build 4-6 more, as well.

Then build man, build! Try using them all in a game, 3x2 with multimeltas is a good config. You will never look back, and now that you know that you can pop transports without going into the dangerous melta-range, you will knock out transports left and right and dictate the game with your mobility. Such a squad can also easily be thrown infront of a land raider, trading 100pts for 250+

I run with 2 squads of 3 MultiMelta Attack Bikes and 1 squad of 3 Hvy Bolter Attack bikes.
I've never looked back as well...very economical choices.

Now, I won't be too critical of the Typhoons. They are very nice. Their only fault is being price appropriately...by that I mean they are expensive, but you do get what you pay for.

Like Sanctjud, I play a SM bike army. If your facing a horde army, bringing 30+ bikes can really intimidate your opponent.

I can tell you from my experience, that I have stopped bringing a command squad on bikes.
First of all, think of the other 2 command squads on bikes that you often see --- Orks and Eldar. The Orks have 2 wounds each making them very tough. You can also field up to 10 of them, which gives you extra bodies to pluck away. The Eldar have fortune and witchblades, making them an extremely tough nut to crack. Both of them are designed to draw lots of attention and fire from the rest of army.

Now, when you look at the SM bike command squad, you can see quickly that its lacking in that hardiness. They have fewer models than the other command squads, and don't have the fortune save or 2 wounds that the other squads do. When they attract the kind of attention that bike command squads do, they tend to go down just a little to fast for my tastes.

Instead, I found its better to just use 2 normal squads. With one PF in each squad, even in assault they can do decently. As Sanctjud mentioned, you get more wounds and overall resilience that way.

Funny, 4 Biker players, 4 biker armies, all 4 play differently. I love it.

And people say Codex: Space Marines is boring!